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CR K04 Stage 4 Hybrid, comparison to k04

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by badger5, Mar 27, 2010.

  1. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    your choice at the end of the day.... piece of mind for the sake of a few 100 quid? a spike can kill the rods if something goes wrong.....
  2. AWDMk1
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    AWDMk1 Member

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    I understand what you are saying... what I want to find out is, what are the limits of the standard internals and will a CR K04 hybrid exceed them? If the car is doing 320 lb/ft now, and has been for a few years on standard rods without any problems, then how much further, if any, can I push them without fear of them going skyward. I agree changing them is probably a good idea but if a K04 hybrid isn't going to produce any more torque, which having read the numbers on this thread it won't, what is the point in upgrading them?
  3. thorsy22
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    thorsy22 Member

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    Surely if you think the figures are low and throwing rods through the block, with your torque you must be bricking it?!

    No personal experience yet as havent even got a remap (yet) but I think most people are going to tell you that you might as well do rods regardless of which turbo you put back on for piece of mind and the sake of forking out for a new engine the rods seem like a bargain!!!
  4. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    If you are already making 320ftlbs then I would say you need rods now...

    <tuffty/>
  5. AWDMk1
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    AWDMk1 Member

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    I don't know, maybe I am being naive but I am aware of lots of 1.8T's running decent power on standard pistons / rods without any problems. Sure if they throw a rod it's bad news but I am not convinced changing them on an S3 is necessary for the sort of figures that can be achieved from a K04 hybrid and at the moment I think it is more often than not undertaken as an often unnecessary insurance policy in most cases. If you see me crying by the side of the road feel free to mock by all means!

    For example, I have a fair bit of experience with 16v VW engines being turbo charged and they are absolutely fine on standard Audi S2 internals up to a given point and then, fair enough, they need to be changed, but until that point is reached, they don't break. 20v rods obviously have a threshold too, I am just curious to see what it is and whether a CR K04 hybrid will exceed them?
  6. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    i think the golden rule is 320ish + but some have been bending on modest maps normal turbos....like i say its your car it may be fine and ????? i would not mock anybody at the side of the road too..lol
  7. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    Your call mate obviously, power isn't the problem here its the torque... granted the K04 isn't a power house but its spiky nature will nuke rods... simples... there are a few here that have bent them on on nothing more than a stage 1 remap let alone hybrids etc...

    Good luck :)

    <tuffty/>
  8. AWDMk1
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    AWDMk1 Member

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    Well I appreciate the info chaps, as I say you all have a lot more experience with these cars than I do hence the questions and the feedback is much appreciated. I just wanted to ask the question really, still in a dilemna as to which way to jump but perhaps leaving it as is would be the more sensible option!!!
  9. Speedy Steve
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    Speedy Steve Active Member

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    What you have to ask yourself is are you happy with how your car is if so save the money and just get a new turbo. The one thing i like about having a slightly lower lbft is im not going to kill my clutch
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2010
  10. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    is the printout DynoRace Dimsport one?
  11. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    hmmm. and wellys S3 bent a rod on revo stage 1, 1.2bar boost, and on my dyno makes 238lbft - now thats not bendy territory, but dyno's vary and mine seems to read lower than some other more happy dynos.
    wellys was enough to break his rod, and some others on here are also suffering rod failure, so dont judge it by torque alone.
  12. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 3, 2010]
    get it mapped to suit then, less boost, no spike, and progressive build will ease the stress, BUT, its in "will it or wont it territory" imho rod wise.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2010
  13. AWDMk1
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    AWDMk1 Member

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    Bill, yes the rolling road run was on Jabba's rollers which are DynoRace I believe, I will have to double check the printout to be 100% though.

    I've been onto CR again this morning and been sensible / boring and went for a KKK K04 running standard spec other than uprated bearings to hopefully stop anything similar happening again. I quizzed Jabba today about the rods and they agreed 320lb / ft was getting toward the limits and also suggested that the cost of going hybrid inc. remap, 440's etc. would gain me little in terms of BHP per £ over the 290 it has already done..... therefore I'm going to leave things as they are and comfort myself with the thoughts that it has been like this for a good while now without any problems. If it goes Pete Tong then so be it and I'll get a stronger bottom end built next time!

    Appreciate all the help though and this seems like a really good forum... also for those on the look out for turbo's I would definitely recommend CR, very helpful indeed and reasonable prices. I've dealt with AET in the past who are also good but CR certainly took the biscuit this time...
  14. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    dimsport rollers are the "happy" ones, inertia only.

    log your airflow and you will see a peak of 200g/s more than likely not 232g/s which 290bhp would require
  15. AWDMk1
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    AWDMk1 Member

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    How do I go about logging the airflow???
  16. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    in vagcom, engine, block 002 or 003 shows mass airflow in g/s
    if you simulated an acceleration run in 3rd/4th wot, you will see what peak airflow is measures.
    other usefull blocks to look at whilst logging (you can log 3 blocks max) are blocks 020 which is timing correction CF, and block 115 which is request vs actual boost..
    there are other usefull ones to see also, like 031 which is lambda request and actual, 112 which shows egt, and 118 which shows actual boost and induction temps, as well as n75 duty cycle.

    the guide on airflow vs what power than can equate to is divide g/s by 0.8 and you get your approximate power. this has correlated on several cars I have dynod recently whilst logging with vagcom

    have fun.. drive safe
  17. AWDMk1
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    AWDMk1 Member

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    Ah thanks very much for that... well I should have the car on the road this time next week all being well and I can lay my hands on a friends vagcom and lead so I will give it a go.....

    I'll let you know the results so it will give you more data for your own dyno.

    Cheers
  18. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    would water meth help with rod failure?? i know its torque that damages them but if things are running a little cooler then every thing will be under less stress? opinions,,,
  19. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Aug 4, 2010]
    no it is the shear sudden pull on the engine from torque or a huge spike..
  20. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 5, 2010]
    not as simple as that, no.

    anyhows..
    here's a comparison of a k04 (wellys) on logs of airflow vs steves hybrid

    Where people thought the hybrid 'lagged' the k04, in airflow terms it did'nt at all as you can see.
    [​IMG]
  21. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 5, 2010]
    [​IMG]

    logged vagcom airflows to go with the dynoplot above
  22. IbanezDan51
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    IbanezDan51 Member

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    [Aug 23, 2010]
    My S3 engine made 260lb/ft of toque on a 4wd dyno at the wheels and the rods didnt let go....after 3000 miles the turbo did though. Im new on here with an Audi S3 engine in a Golf 4motion. Rebuilding the engine now...I have some questions so will post up a new thread.

    Dan
  23. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2010]
    hi mate im getting a cr hybrid turbo in the next 3 week should i get the rods first or will they be ok till i get money together plus do i have to change fuel pump and injectors straight away tar gaz
  24. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 22, 2010]
    Rods, rods, rods. Don't skimp on them, it won't be beneficial in the long run.

    Short term gain, long term loss.

    Do it all at once - no problems that way.
  25. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2010]
    cheers mate rods it is then any idears best place to get then from and what else would i need with the turbo like fuel pump and injectors tar gaz
  26. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 22, 2010]
    Bill at Badger5 can sort with with IE Rods (The same I use).

    I will be piloting VXR Injectors (470cc) on my hybrid build next week so I'd await the outcome of that.
  27. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 22, 2010]
    keep a lid on the boost and aggression during mapping if no rods... but you wont realise the hybrids potential I fear
  28. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2010]
    ok cheers welly dont now if to go 440 or 470 lol is there much dif tar
  29. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 22, 2010]
    Yeah, the difference is around or about 30....

    Like I said, I'll have a better idea on the 470s once mapped.
  30. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2010]
    hi bill how much are the rods then and should i go 440 or 470 does it matter much between them both
  31. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 23, 2010]
    rods £340, bearings £75 plus fitting + stuff
    440's or 470's either will work when mapped to suit

    we will see how wellys gets on when i do it in a couple of weeks
  32. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Sep 23, 2010]
    cheers mate ruf how much to fit rods will i need to fit new piston rings at same time and witch injectors are the best mate and will need bigger fuel pump with them tar badger
  33. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 23, 2010]
    £450 labour +vat plus gaskets bolts and stuff
    the 480cc vxr ones may work out best value currently.. we'll see how they work in wellys soon
    new rings not req'd usually.. light deglaze and clean up and reinstall
  34. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Sep 23, 2010]
    tar mate ill see how wellys works then
  35. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    update:
    okies.. small update.
    Wellys been fitting his 034 mani..
    whilst apart he brought the hybrid k04 along so I could port its wastegate as it was creeping under boost.

    Pictures below of whats been done and required.
    Std k04/Hybrid wastegate port
    [​IMG]

    Once ported by me
    [​IMG]

    Quite some difference :)

    A std K04 throat
    [​IMG]

    The ported Hybrid of Wellys
    [​IMG]

    and finally, side by side comparison of a K04 and the ported hybrid
    [​IMG]
  36. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    Badger if i ported my turbo and fit the 034 manifold would i have any problems?

    I know welly has a large port head and i have a ported small port but a extra 300cc so just trying to weigh things up weather its worth keeping the CR Hybrid and port it and fit the manifold or save for a GT3076r?
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    I think the engine capacity you have will show the hybrids limit up .. It would break 300bhp I think, but the top end rpms it would be flow restricted.
    depends on how much power you want and what sort of power delivery you are after..
    GT3076 etc is a leap from k04 based units..

    a bigger turbo would seem more appropriate to your spec engine tho.. all down to your power goals.
  38. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    When i started the build i wanted over 300 but with the spec i have i'm sure 400 would be easily done with a GT Turbo
  39. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    yours should be a rocket ship andy..
    go for it :)
  40. IbanezDan51
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    IbanezDan51 Member

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Welly/Bill,

    As you know I blew my head, the guy rebuilding it says its going to need new exhaust valve guides which he is saying are £15 each plus VAT and obviously there are 8. He then said it may need new inlet ones too which then would be £15+VAT x 20....not good! Welly did an AGU head fit straight onto yours? Mine is an APY so think it will? Can I use a standard inlet manifold for now on an AGU head? Then get a big port one when I find one?

    Reason asking is I have found a brand new head for £400. This is a genuine VW one and not a recon.

    Or can I get away with just having the exhaust valve guides done and new valves?

    Sorry for posting it here...but eventually it will coincide with the information as it is a hybrid ko4 car lol

    Thanks!
    Dan

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