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CR hybrid stage 3 turbo ....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Dan s3 audi, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Dan s3 audi
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    Dan s3 audi Member

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    [Sep 18, 2012]
    Yes that makes sence, what i will do also tomorrow is plumb the gauge into the pipe going to the n75 just to double check the reading.
  2. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    My advice remains the same as before.
  3. Dan s3 audi
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    Dan s3 audi Member

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    Message i sent to jabba the other day, with no reply yet!, I feel the message is fair.


    I had my car custom mapped on the 10/09/2012 at jabba sport. At about 1:30pm the guy mapping my car came up into the waiting room to tell me there is a problem with the boost levels. The car was producing very minimal boost meaning he could only get it to run 262BHP at the flywheel (That is only 52bhp more than a standard apy set up). He had a quick look at things it could have been, but could not resolve the problem saying that the only thing it is pointing too is the turbo. At this point I was quite upset as I had just spent over four thousand rebuilding the engine and had a k04 stage four hybrid from CR Turbo. So at the end of the day i was left with thinking i had to replace the brand new turbo and a pocket £400 lighter from the custom mapping. Now when i got the car home 170miles away from jabba as i now live down in bath, I looked up possible faults on the internet forums. I quickly found the problem to be with the wastgate opening up at high rpm due to the pressure build up. I managed to adjust the pre-load so that i was getting 18psi at red line and not 13psi. So i phone Jabba back and spoke to the person who mapped my car to tell him. I said now that the boost has increased I wanted to check the air and fuel ratio as it may now be running too lean. I also told him about the problem i had on the way home from the map being that in gears 3-6 at low rpm with the throttle open i was getting really bad compressor surge from the turbo. (I read up this is due to the fact that before 4000 rpm the car will not be able to get rid of a huge amount of boost 24psi+ so it should be limited to around 19psi until its past 4000 rpm and that compressor surge will kill the turbo.) He said bring it back for use to change a few things and test it (will take around 3 hours). I was told it is £60 a hour, meaning it would cost around £180 plus then i have another 340mile round trip.

    I feel quite a bit upset about my experience at jabba sport. I fell that i should of had the opportunity to bring the car back free of charge or at a good deal as i had paid for the map, which was technically not completed (i know this is not at the fault of jabba sport). I cannot see how a custom map can be done over a day, especially if you run into problems like i did. I think it should be done over a two day period where by if there is a problem on the first day, you have a chance to take it home to get it fixed then book it in for the final day where the map can be completed. I hope you can understand how i feel, i am one that never usually complains and I have done a fair bit of business with your company in the past. I have also recommended your firm too many people in the past.

    I wish that something could be done about this situation
  4. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    nicer than i would have been
  5. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    2 day duration mapping = two day charging

    are you prepared for that?
  6. Dan s3 audi
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    Dan s3 audi Member

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    when i spoke to r-tec they said they do theres over a week because there are always problems (they are cheaper than jaba too) but i couldnt because i needed my car for moveing, when i spoke to jabba befor the map why r-tec do it over a week period there reply was "we have done much more and we have a emulator". I dont know i thought they would have sorted something considering it was such a easy problem to fix.
  7. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    [Devils Advocate mode=ON]
    If you take a car for a remap to a company, and one which you assembled or had assembled ( as opposed the tuner you took it to for mapping) then if there are hardware issues, which effect mapping, the mapper are not of their cause... and its s choice of someone having to rectify them.. mapping wise its incomplete at that point, or at least unfulfilled in terms of a lower than hoped power figure. (like yours)
    They would no doubt have spent time trying to map it.. time which is going to be required to be paid for..

    Its going to be a balance of fixed price remap vs something which is not of their build and in many respects "unknown". Only in the act of mapping will issues become apparent.

    I know I get this a lot... and its often frustrating as hell.

    A hybrid map would not take a week.. Emulator is quicker than flashing & logging.. think about it 5 days labour for remap money? It aint a weeks work.. duration perhaps, dropping on and off the job... but not a weeks work

    If there are problems, then they would of course need to be firstly identified and then fixed.. Someone will have to do this and it will take an amount of time, depending on whats up with it.

    I try and build in as much time as possible to allow for issues, which of course often arise on self builds by folks.. Trying to price such jobs is tricky.. and some folks gets politely asked to take their cars away with a list of things to fix first, or have the option of getting them fixed by me but that work is hourly rate chargeable.

    Tricky one, the position you find yourself in.
    An actuator only run often becomes of how I approach these things.... see what the base line is...as an issue on wg for example would be evident from he get go.

    good luck getting it sorted..
    Stonehouse is'nt that far from Bath :)
    sambryant likes this.
  8. Dan s3 audi
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    Dan s3 audi Member

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    Yes i think i will be down to see you, it will be in a while tho because i may need to take the car off the road till i get a job sorted out lol
  9. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    job = earning £ = handy for car mods.... bottomless pits that they are
  10. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    The reason R-tech take your car in for a week, is that they have 3 time slots a day for routine st1/2 mapping in 3 hour slots.

    The custom work tends to be done for an hour or so at the end of each day, Niki will make map changes and things during the day whilst the guys are flashing maps onto more normal cars and doing dyno runs, then at the end of the day they run the new file and dyno the car to see what changes are required, which Niki then gets on with the next day and the cycle continues.....

    Since Niki got his emulator things may well change, but that's how it's been for some time, it takes a bit longer, but allows prices to be kept low. They had mine for 3 weeks due to various problems!
  11. R-Tech-Nick
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    R-Tech-Nick Active Member

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    I have spent hours writing this only for IE to freeze, then for ASN to log me out...lol not happy :(



    We used to carry out custom stage 3 remaps during a days dyno session, drive in and out jobbies. But straight a way we saw a flaw and a patern doing the custom work this way. What was happening was we was spending 6-7hours on the dyno tuning cars from stock maps, working our way up step by step to the requested power, we would run in to minor issue boost leak, boost pipes popping off which if a bumper needs to come off mean 2+hours to fix in some cases. but during a dyno custom mapping session we will always run into issues, not enough fuel flow, strange maf reading and sensor logs. componets acting strange, air flow issues, water pump issue, cooling issues, not being able to hold boost, parts on the car fitted wrong, timing tooth -/+, pcv splitting, **** parts, cheap fix solutions....... ect the list will go on.

    Now my problem is I have spent a whole on the dyno with Jim actually tuning the car in steps, only to get to the last step and an unseen hardware issue put a halt on the mapping session. I need to cover the wages x3, rent, electrics, investment ect for the whole day which means I will be wanting to take £390 off the customer to cover my costs. while taking the money off the customer I will be also telling him the car is not mapped, not safe, not finished and he will need to fix the car and rebook another mapping session and pay again for the time for us to finish the mapping off, but still no guarantee the mapping will get finished as we could run into more hardware issues.

    (Sounds like what Dan has just said about the his jabba session, which ended up making Jabba look bad for doing there job right)

    So who will be willing to pay me £390 and drive a way with the same map and power you came in with 7 hours ago, knowing you need to come back and pay again to get the power your after and no guarantee it will be finished??? lol

     

     

     

    The way we work at R-Tech now is that every custom stage3 and above custom remapping session needs to be dropped off for 7 days for us to carry out the remap. With all stage3 custom maps I will always start tuning from a 100% stock map, I wont try and tune adapt another stage3 generic map to work with another car.

    Day1 (between other jobs) We will do a full visual inspection of the engine, carry out a low pressure and smoke test, check all water line and boost pipes, pcv, make sure every thing is setup correct.

    Day2 (again between job) Fit parts and put faults right from the day 1 findings 99% of the car will need something doing to them.

    Day2/3 (book a 3 hour dyno slot) Remove wipers, scuttle panle and ecu, load and install our development ecu, connect live emulator, write a base map to start the car on the current maf and injector setup, then drive car on the dyno and strap down the connect innovate external logging system to the car. At this point we have worked on the car for over 1.5hrs. We will then drive the car under light load to get an idea how the car is acting with the unique hardware and turbo setup, make sure we have full control of the turbo via the n75 mapping and then spend over an hour just dailing in the fuel corrections to get the fuel trims within reason. we now have enough time to carry out 0% duty cycle power runs again to get an idea how the car is acting, we will then run the car with actuator pressure only to allow us to make a base line map for boost control. later this day I will be taking the car out on the road to get a feel on how the car is running on the base line map . Having a "feel" for the car will allow me to tune the car better knowing what I need to do not thinking I know what needs doing as every car differs as stage3. (end of day fix faults or diagnose issues if any)

    Day4 (spending as much time on the dyno after the last booked job) The car will be ready just to plug and play with the emulator and base map ready to upload, so about 15-20mins to get it on the dyno ready to start turning up the boost, I set my self a target boost level to tune upto, then start to steady state live mapping at 6500rpm to dial the n75 setting to hit the target boost, then work backwards to around 3000rpm. this takes around 1/1.5hour, next step one car has cooled down is to set the spooling and over boost pids for fast and slow reactions. This can be a pain to do and can take between 20-mins and 1hour. The last job for the day is to carry out an inertia power sweep test to make sure boost is under control and smooth (which I am anal about getting the boost control spot on with every car ) I will then drive this car home to make sure the boost it acting the same under road load conditions. (fix faults or diagnose issues if any next morning)

    Day4 (normally a 3-4 hour morning slot) Car back no the dyno hooked up to all systems, and tuning/logging for safe power. set timing maps, set timing correction based on air temp, set lambda and protection maps, log egts, tweak the load maps to hit the target power output... Then run the car to is most extream conidtions just as about as hard as it gets on an engine, this could be a 25second full load ramp rate test with no fans on the FMIC, to see the extream conditions AIT to make sure the timing correction maps are pulling back to a safe limit to avoid nasty knock, we will log egt to the max and make sure the fuel dump kicks in at the right point. When me and Jim are happy with logs we will put the car back to run its stock ecu, wipers back on and get it ready for a final power run session last thing before we go home once the car is cool. I will take the car home and abuse it under all conditions (on the private run way leading up to my house..honest) (fix faults or diagnose issues if any next day) Once I am 100% happy I will then phone the customer and tell him its ready to collect.

     

    The above is a perfect custom mapping week, we can do 2-3 custom maps each week using this non rushed step by step tuning method. We have enough time to diagnose issues and put them right without it costing us lost workshop time and its not going to cost the customer any major labour costs to put right.

    Take this this week, A 4motion Golf 1.8T GT2860RS, which I started to map 2 months back but ran in to major issues and aborted. The customer spent many hours sorting the car out so he could rebook back in for this week... Dyno session 1 car empties all coolant on the dyno due to a turbo coolant line coming loose, we manage to tweak the nut to slow the leak down to hold the water for more the 30mins, then as soon as we started again the car dumped all its power steering fluid due to a bodged weld on the PAS pump braking off with the vibration. That 4 hours lost on the dyno, 2.5 hours to put right, and 45mins mopping and cleaning up.. We have now requested to have the car and extra 2 days to make up for lost time.

     

    Ps

    Smashing an Audi A3 rear window with a lambda sensor and wating to get it fixed also costs time....pmsl
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  12. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    *******!

    [​IMG]

    New one was nice though, thanks :salute:
  13. R-Tech-Nick
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    R-Tech-Nick Active Member

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    Fail of the year!!!
  14. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 20, 2012]
    and who pays for this lost time due to a customer supplied "bodge"?
  15. R-Tech-Nick
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    R-Tech-Nick Active Member

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    [Sep 20, 2012]
    Customer pays for parts and fluids, Jim fitted the pump yesterday morning while I was mapping an ST, so the pump got fitted for £free as the ST paid covered the worksop costs for the morning. The coolant line will be getting fixed by Rich next door at DynoDaze at a reduced £25 per hour rate.
  16. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Sep 20, 2012]
    is that Dan's old black 20vt 4mo Niki? that you had yonks back with the hybrid then he broke it up?
  17. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 20, 2012]
    this is why you are so highly respected nick.
    you can abuse my car anyday. wel, one day i hope.

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