Completely new install. Got a few Q's.

[psytech]

Hey, I'm new to Audi-sport.net so this is my first post. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Bought a B5 A4 2.8 Quattro 3 months ago. First Audi & I love it. Although thought I'd give the stereo a complete overhaul.

Just bought;

Alpine iDA-X001 iPod Head Unit.

Alpine R-type 5.25 components (front - driven by HU)
Alpine R-type 6.5 coaxials (rear - driven by HU)

2x Alpine R-type SWR 1022D Subs (500w rms 10" 2-ohm DVC)
driven by;
2x In-Phase IPA-900 2 channel Amps. (350w x1 @4ohm Bridged)

Lanzar Optikit0 Dual Amp Wiring Kit.

Ok so, I'm gonna do everything myself as I cant afford to get it done professionally and I also like to get my hands dirty. Shouldn't have any problems with the head unit, rear speaker installation or Subs.

However, have been reading through a couple of posts to find that I may have problems fitting the front components because of the depth. Has anyone done this already, and do they know if they will fit? I am mounting them on Autoleads 5.25" conversion plates.

Also, the wiring.........

Where is the best possible place to feed the power wire through the bulkhead from the battery? And then run it down to the boot? Its a Gauge 0 cable so its about 18mm thick.

I want to run the RCA leads and speaker cable separate from the power cable so is there another route for these?

And finally, can any one tell me where the best possible place to fix the ground wire in the boot is? It's the same size as the power cable.

Thankyou. Any help would be much appreciated.

Am now off to get the clutch fixed as it went after I ordered all this stuff!!! £650 expensive or cheap? I got quoted up to £1100!!

Sods law eh?......

Thanks. Simon.

 

[AndyMac]

New clutch should be about £350, I got a new gearbox, clutch and labour for £1100!
Power feeds through the ECu cover, which drops straight into the drivers footwell, run the power down the drivers side, RCA's down the passenger side.
0 guage is total overkill for the power you're running and will just make your life really difficult. 4 guage would be fine for those 2 amps.
You have 55mm max depth for the front components, and I wouldn't use the autoleads adapters they're garbage and don't fit properly. Useful as a template to make your own from MDF. MDF adapters also give the mids something a bit more substantial to kick against, but Dynamat or similar is a must on both the front doors and the door cards.

Don't use the stock tweeter wiring either as it has an inline filter built into it, but I guess you won't be using any of the stock wiring which is a good move.

 

[psytech]

Thanks Andymac. The information is well appreciated. The quote for the clutch was for clutch, plate, new seals on the gearbox and labour. Its the best quote I could find in my area. If you know of somewhere in Hampshire thats cheaper I would love to know. I got the quote from Gearlink in Salisbury.

Think the 5.25" comp's are 55mm deep, will give them a try. Definately using dynamat too. Just lined up the speakers with the adapters, they don't fit. Whats with that? They touch the rubber surrounds on the speakers!
The reason I have a 0 Gauge kit is because the 4 gauge kit I ordered wasn't instock so they gave me a free upgrade. I wasn't complaining, although I had just gone out and bought separate speaker cables and RCA leads. Oh well I now have spares!

Thanks. Will post again if I have more problems.

 

[AndyMac]

Gearlink were the people that provided my exchange gearbox.
ABTech are the specialists I use for all work on our Audi's, they are in Southampton.
The adapters are made by Autoleads, that's a cast iron guarantee of ill fitting ICE accessories. Their adapters for A3 rear speakers leave a 5mm gap all the way round the adapter and the door/speaker card, which really "enhances" the sound quality, however they are perfect as a guide for routing out a 6.5" hole.
You will have a nightmare trying to route 0 guage down the length of the car.

 

[psytech]

I know the cable is huge!!!

In my old car I used to run the cables under the inside door sills. These cables are just too big! What about through the centre console, then up and under the middle of the rear seats? Its gonna be a big job, but I don't mind pulling the whole car apart trying! Will let you know how I get on. Should have the clutch fixed by next week then its electrical playtime, thanks for the help.

Oh, where can I ground the amp? Its 18mm thick from the dist' block. Is there somewhere in the spare wheel well? I havn't looked yet.

 

[AndyMac]

Honestly sell the 0 guage on ebay and buy some 4 guage, why make life difficult?

 

[psytech]

Maybe you're right. I'd have to sell the whole kit, I've got matching distribution blocks and inline fuse holders. If I buy smaller cables they wont fit the plugs. It's worth £140 quid so I could sell it and buy a cheaper one.

In-Phase do a 4 Gauge Dual amp wiring kit with RCA & speaker leads for £100 so if I send it back maybe I could get them to swap it.

 

[dualmono21]

with those amplifiers and those coil configurations
you are looking at a maximum current draw of around 116 amps
over anything more than ten feet 4 gauge is not suitable as you will draw too much current down the cable and melt the cable

on some cars 0 gauge cable can be a pain to run but it gives less voltage drop and has the potential for upgrade in case you wanted to amplify the front speakers also

a good comprmise would be 2 gauge cable

 

[AndyMac]

If you actually need 0 guage then you'd need an alternator upgrade and second battery, no way would those amps pull anywhere near 100 amps.

 

[psytech]

Conflicting stories?

Now I don't know what to do. Maybe 2 Gauge is the answer. I am eventually going to install a third amp to run the 4 speakers with so maybe Its not to bad an idea to stick with what i've got? I'm not sure.

Apart from the fact that its a ******* to fit. Are there any electrical reasons why I shouldn't run 0 Gauge cable?

New alternator & battery? Could I not just use Power caps?

Thanks for all your advice guys.

 

[dualmono21]

im afraid its fact andy

each amp when configured to run those subs will output 350 wrms

350 x 2 is 700
now seeing as amplifiers are only 50 per cent efficient
that means that the actual input wattage is double that of the output
so in fact its 1400 watts

watts divided by volts = amps

1400 / 12 = 116 amps

and at that ampage 4 gauge is only suitable for runs of less than ten feet
and it leaves no room whatsoever for error

my advise is to use either 2 gauge or 0 gauge

 

[dualmono21]

it may well be prudent to put a decent battery on the car
something like an odyssey or an optima as for upgrading the alternator it really depends on what output the one you have on is as standard
if your car has extras like air con and such i would have thought it would allready be a sizeable alternator
in any case i wouldnt have thought the charging system would be in danger just yet
if your going to sit playing the car hard with the engine off then the charging system will need attention before long as it wont last

caps can be very usefull in certain applications but unfortunatly this isnt one of them
the cost of the caps themselves would be better spent on a better battery gel cell battery such as the above

 

[psytech]

Thanks. DualMono21.

I think the existing alternator is good enough but might look into getting it replace as the car has done over 100k. As for the battery, I'll see how it goes, I've looked at the Odyssey pc1500?. Gonna stick with the 0 Gauge wiring kit I have, I can always swap the 2way dist' block for a 3 way later on. Only problem now is gonna be feeding it from one end to the other and grounding it.

Also. Thanks Andymac. I sent the autoleads adaptor plates back, they're absolutely useless. Gonna build my own. Do you know if their head unit adapters are just as bad? Cos I've got some of them too!

 

[dualmono21]

odyssey make a battery called the pc1700 which is a very very good battery
but before you purchase any new battery check the dimensions and make sure itll fit where you want it to

 

[SteveTDCi]

Isn't a quick way to check is to see what fuses the amps take, an amp is never going to draw more current than a fuse can take.

 

[dualmono21]

NO thats not how it works
the amplifiers fuse is there to protect the amplifier it is not there to protect the cable (THATS WHAT THE MAIN FUSE IS FOR )
the main fuse should be fitted within 18" of the battery and should if possible be of a watertight design to avoid problems it can be rated slightly less than the maximum current draw your system is capable of drawing to enable it to blow the main fuse safely without damaging equipment (this is theory it doesnt allways work in practice)

the main fuse is to prevent any short circuit which could occur from cables becoming loose and shorting to earth or the cable getting trapped and the protective sheathing being broken and again going to earth (how many times have any of you droppped a spanner between the pos and neg terminals of a battery to find the spanner instantly welds itself to the terminal )
now if you havent fitted a front fuse that cable is now connected directly to the battery and because you have a short circuit the amplifers fuse has broken BUT THIS WONT MAKE ANY DIFFERANCE
the cable is connected to your battery and has shorted directly underneath the passenger seat whilst your driving at 70mph in the outside lane of the motorway

i have a photo of the pioneer competition vehicle from america which burnt to the ground in less than a minute due to this very problem
(when i can find it ill post it )

HERE is a guide to how to work out the cable size required for your vehicle http://stason.org/TULARC/entertainment/audio/car/2-3-What-is-the-best-power-wire-to-use-JSC.html

between this and the above guide on how to work out current draw you should be able to work out your individual needs for any car

hope this helps
nath

 

[AndyMac]

I agree in theory there is the possibility that it'll draw 100+ amps, but in reality it'll get no where near this amount. I run a T505 Alpine which is 300wrms, 375wrms on the birth certificate, and even flat out it only peaks at about 25amps. Remember also this is continuous power, whereas in reality music will never drive a sub continuously, so even though you calculate 50% efficiency in any amp, this is easily offset by the fact the amp will generally be pulsing, unless you are using test signals.
The fuse for the cable will protect the cable so there's no chance your car will burn to the ground. Just try sticking a 40 amp fuse in the 4 guage and see if you can get it to blow, I guarantee you'll struggle to pull 40amps let alone 100+. In an ideal world then run 0 guage, I'm a huge fan of over engineering, but when it's going to cause major issues with the install it really is totally unnecessary. If you are that paranoid then run 2 x 4 guage cables, one for each amp, that will be a whole lot easier than a single 0 guage.

 

[dualmono21]

agreed andy

but you would be surprised with todays modern music and cress factors
even on normal music how much power any amp can draw

when building any car audio system or indeed introducing
ANY safety system into anything
it is allways measured against POTENTIAL not probability

0 gauge is a little tougher to route through a car but it also has other benefits when you measure the voltage drop at either end of the cable
over a typical 12ft length of cable the differnace between 0 gauge and 4 gauge is plain for all to see 0 gauge has a lot less resistance
than either one or two runs of 4 gauge the outcome will be something like
0.2 - 0.3 of a volt this may not sound like much
but in reality thats about 20 - 30 watts rms from each amplifier
this can be gained or lost depending on whichever cable psytech decides to use

 

[AndyMac]

Agreed also, but if you're that hard up for power to even notice a 20-30 watt drop on the amp then you really need a more powerful amp. The main reason for overdoing the cable is not the power loss from a potential voltage drop, it's to prevent the amp from flatlining and destroying the subs with DC, but again this is only likely if you're really driving the amps on the limit, which is never advisable.
Given that psytech is driving the cabin speakers off the HU and has over 700wrms on tap for the subs, I really don't think any of this is relevant, 4 guage will be just fine.
Nath once again you are perfectly correct in everything you say but this is not a competition system he's putting together, he's just adding a couple of subs, so cutting a few corners is not going to effect the result.

 

[dualmono21]

im not basing this on a competition system andy im basing this purely on a system safety point of view NOTHING ELSE
ive seen far too many melted fuseholders and fuses which have gotten so hot the solder has run out and shorted the positive wire direct to earth

the advice is there its upto anyone to make there own mind up
heres the pioneer phtots i was on about earlier
http://www.iascauk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1682&highlight=fire

 

[psytech]

Thanks guys, you both seem to make a valid point. I think I am going to stick with the 0 gauge cable I already have, its seems to me that the only problem I'm going to have with it is running it, and seing as I have it already, and I like a challenge, I cant be bothered with the hassle of returning it and waiting longer for another to show up. Its already taken three weeks for the mail order company to get it to me after saying it was "next day delivery" and I'm fed up of speaking to them on the phone only to be told by some egit that "they cant do anything at the moment". I'm not going to name the company because they are good at what they do, just not this time! Its all here now..... just not exactly in time for christmas!

So, just booked my car in to Gearlink in Salisbury to have the clutch replaced. Then its time to crack out the MDF and acoustic carpet!

Will let you know how I get on.

Thanks, you have been really helpful.

 

[AndyMac]

im not basing this on a competition system andy im basing this purely on a system safety point of view NOTHING ELSE
ive seen far too many melted fuseholders and fuses which have gotten so hot the solder has run out and shorted the positive wire direct to earth

I'd say the fuses didn't exactly do their job then, and/or were incorrectly rated for the cabling, either way it was a bad install.
An 80amp cable with a 40amp fuse cannot melt/catch fire or cause a nuclear explosion. All it can do is blow the fuse if installed correctly, that's it's only job.

 

[psytech]

Thats not necessarily true....I blew the main fuse in my old install and it melted so badly it stuck to the plastic cover under my bonnet. I couldnt get the fuse out of the holder because it was so deformed. And that was a single 100amp inline fuse connected running to a 4 channel 60wpc amp. The power drain couldn't have been that bad could it? If the metal had melted differently the heat could of caused the plastic to catch fire, luckily it didnt. It was ****** hot though!

The inline fuse I have for this install is a 1 in 0 gauge 200amp ANL LED fuse box connected to a 1 in 0 gauge / 2 out 4 gauge distribution block with 2 80 amp PCS fuses. Im thinking it'll be ok.

 

[AndyMac]

That was a 100 amp fuse in what was obviously not a fuseholder designed for 100 amps. A high power polycarbonate fuse holder would not have melted. The amplifier is irrelevant. The higher the fuse rating the more damage that can be caused before it finally gives up i.e. no way would that amp be pulling anywhere near 100 amps so the only thing that would cause that level of damage would be a short and with a fuse of 100amps that's a lot of current flow before the fuse would blow. In that scenario you should have used a 20-30 amp fuse in which case it would have blown before anything melted. This is why it would be better to run 2 seperate 4 gauge cables with 2 seperate conservatively rated fuses.

 

[dualmono21]

I'd say the fuses didn't exactly do their job then, and/or were incorrectly rated for the cabling, either way it was a bad install.
An 80amp cable with a 40amp fuse cannot melt/catch fire or cause a nuclear explosion. All it can do is blow the fuse if installed correctly, that's it's only job.

yes it can
it doesnt have to melt the cable or its protective sheath or indeed blow the fuse all it needs to do is get the fuse hot and it melts the solder in the fuse and this melts everything else around it
AND BECAUSE NINE TIMES OUT OF TEN THE SYSTEM WILL STILL WORK
this is where it becomes dangerous as usually the owner is unaware until either the car catches fire or the system stops working

ive actually done one of these today on a lancia delta integrale
system stopped working ...
headunit powered up but no sound
checked amp found 7 volts at terminals of amp
checked main fuse fuse had melted and burnt fuseholder

replaced main cable and fuseholder as main cable not suffiecient for current draw

 

[psytech]

That was a 100 amp fuse in what was obviously not a fuseholder designed for 100 amps.

If this is true, then why was it sold to me as a package?

Also, if my distribution block splits the power into two 4 gauge lines with 80 amp fuses from a 0 gauge line with a 200 amp fuse, wouldnt this be safer than running two 4 gauge lines straight from the battery?

 

[AndyMac]

No it wouldn't because your 0 gauge cable is the main supply and that has a 200amp fuse, which is effectively no fuse at all. A 200amp fuse can cause a lot of damage before it eventually blows. It's like having one huge fuse for your whole car or house - bad idea. Anything shorts to that line and it's going to do a lot of damage before the fuse kicks in.
You have 2 x 350wrms amps. They will pull around 30amps each max, so fuse them seperately at the battery with 40amp fuses. Most HU's are rated at 4 x 50w peak, that's about 4 x 20wrms which equates to over 6 amps just for the internal amp, but they're all fitted with a 5 amp fuse, which never blows. I'm a big fan of over engineering, but don't over engineer the fuse, it's the one thing that should be under engineered. If you're not confident with the calculations look at the fuses fitted to the amp. The T505 is fitted with a 30amp fuse, so the supply should be the same or slightly more to compensate for losses in the cable etc. If it blows a 30amp fuse when cranked up then that's a good thing, it's doing its job, and so you change up to a 40amp fuse.
As for people selling 200amp wiring kits, happens all the time, just because they're selling them doesn't mean they are 100% safe. If they are safe then why do companies also sell polycarbonate hi power fuse holders? Because they look nice?
Run low gauge cable, I don't have a problem with that, although 9/10 times it is unnecessary, but please please protect the circuit with the correct amperage fuse in a quality holder. Just because you're running a cable that is rated for 100amps, you don't use a 100amp fuse.
As for Nath's example above, then there will always be horror stories with badly installed equipment, and without knowing what kit was used with what wiring then it's impossible to comment. But I would say generally if the wiring and/or fuseholder failed before the fuse blew then the fuse was way too highly rated for the system.

 

[psytech]

Could I just swap the 80amp fuses in the distribution block for 40's then? Obviously the 0gauge cable can handle a 200amp load so if something does happen it'll happen in the dist' block? Or am I thinking the wrong way round in terms of where I want the fuses to blow?

 

[psytech]

Just pulled the inline fuse holder apart and discovered its a 150amp fuse. Not 200 like it was stated. Could I just swap this for a lower ampage one? Say 100amp in the in-line and 2 40's in the dist' block?

 

[AndyMac]

I'd swap the 150a for an 80, and then two 40's at the distribution block.

 

[psytech]

Will do, thanks andy. I suppose with a low ampage fuse in a high ampage fuse holder there's less chance of a meltdown.