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Census 2011! How are your *standard* rods?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by metricspaces, Feb 13, 2011.

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How are your rods?

Poll closed Feb 20, 2011.
  1. Rods have NOT bent - on standard map.

    37.8%
  2. Rods have NOT bent - on stage-1 map

    37.8%
  3. Rods have NOT bent - on stage-2 map

    12.2%
  4. Rods have NOT bent - on higher than stage-2 map

    6.7%
  5. Rods bent :-( - on standard map

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Rods bent :-( - on stage-1 map

    3.3%
  7. Rods bent :-( - on stage-2 map

    1.1%
  8. Rods bent :-( - on higher than stage-2 map

    1.1%
  1. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    Evening folks. There seems to be a lot of talk\fear about rods getting bent even on stage-1 maps. So I've set up a poll to give us an idea of where people are seeing failures.

    We are talking about standard Audi rods here - just in case that wasn't clear :sm4: .

    It would be useful for people who have seen failures to update with relavent info about their cars:

    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2
    * What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc.
    * What max bhp they had
    * What max torque they had
    * What max boost they had
    * How old the car was when the rods bent?
    * How old the car was when it was first remapped?
    * Was there any other issue with the car e.g. was there a problem with oil supply to the engine?
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
    #1
  2. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    Good idea..maybe a conclusion of how the rods bent....lack of oil......torque....
    #2
  3. SamiG
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    SamiG On Boost, ish.

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    Rods have NOT bent - on standard map.

    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2 - Standard
    * What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc. - Standard
    * What max bhp they had - 215bhp
    * What max torque they had - 198lb/ft Tq
    * How old the car was - KG51 ***
    #3
  4. AudiS3Quattro
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    AudiS3Quattro Member

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    Rods have NOT bent - ON REVO STAGE 2.

    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2 - STAGE 2
    * What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc. - REVO
    * What max bhp they had - APPROX 270bhp
    * What max torque they had - ?????lb/ft Tq
    * How old the car was - EX03 *** (MAPPED IN 2009)
    #4
  5. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    ***sticky*** Request?
    #5
  6. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Personally i think your missing the point here.

    Just because 4000 other peoples engines have been fine on stage 2 doesnt mean yours will. It all comes down to quality control. We can be absolutely sure these rods ARE running near their limits with remapped engines, otherwise there would be no failures. Run anything near its limits for long enough and it will eventually fail. The problem is that the rods arent all the same, so while one particular set might take 300lbft for 5 years without any problems, the set in your engine might fold after 6 months of 270lbft.

    Its not really about how many peoples rods stayed in one piece, because that number is in effect irrelevant to your engine.

    What you need to be aware of is that IF you've remapped your S3 your pushing the rods into dodgy territory.
    #6
  7. Don's A3 TTu
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    Don's A3 TTu Member

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    stage 3 revo map
    garrett gt2860rs
    peak at 1.8 bar
    had for 18mths now
    no problems so far touch wood!
    #7
  8. G60DAN
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    G60DAN Member

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    Rods bent :-( - on stage-1 map

    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1
    * What map they were on e.g. Celtic Tunning
    * What max bhp they had 270
    * What max torque they had 247
    * How old the car was when the rods bent 2001
    * How old the car was when it was first remapped 2010
    * Was there any other issue with the car had no problem at the time
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
    #8
  9. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Rods bent :-( - on stage-2 map

    By the way - I clicked the wrong button - it was Stage 1 but can't change!! lol.

    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2 - Stage 1
    * What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc. - Revo
    * What max bhp they had - unknown at that point
    * What max torque they had - unknown also
    * How old the car was when the rods bent? 10 years - 125000 miles
    * How old the car was when it was first remapped? - unknown
    * Was there any other issue with the car e.g. was there a problem with oil supply to the engine? - No other issues. However was running an N75 J.
    #9
  10. JS1500
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    JS1500 Howdy

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    Rods have NOT bent - ON Custom-Code STAGE 1:

    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2 - STAGE 1
    * What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc. - Custom-Code
    * What max bhp they had - 254bhp
    * What max torque they had - 298lb/ft
    * How old the car was - 2003 and 80k miles (REMAPPED IN 2009 at 67k)

    Note: I'm running a big 298lb/ft (27.5psi) spike at 3,500rpm - didn't know this until recently but car has been the same since the remap.
    #10
  11. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    Rods have NOT bent - ON "Chipped UK" STAGE 1:

    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2 - STAGE 1
    * What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc. - Chipped UK
    * What max bhp they had - 254bhp
    * What max torque they had - 280lb/ft
    * How old the car was - Car is currently 9 years old BAM with 122K on the clock. Was mapped 18 months ago at around 110k
    #11
  12. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    Rods have NOT bent - ON Jabba custom STAGE 1 (now CC stage 1):

    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2 - STAGE 1
    * What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc. - Jabba custom, now CC stage 1
    * What max bhp they had - 250bhp
    * What max torque they had - 300lb/ft
    * How old the car was - Car is currently 8 years old BAM with 69K on the clock. Was mapped 4 years ago at around 40k
    * Was there any other issue with the car e.g. was there a problem with oil supply to the engine? - The jabba map was running a bit lean and i'm currently trying to get rid of a 27psi boost spike.
    #12
  13. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    That's fair enough. It's a forum. We can all express our opinion, and agree, disagree, or agree to disagree :)

    But it may be worth taking this into a separate thread rather than distracting away from the main purpose of this one - the poll.

    I don't think I am missing the point that you and a few others are making. Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is that some stage-1's have seen bent rods, so it is a risk on stage-1 even, so it would make sense to change the rods.

    I'm not disagreeing that there is a risk. If something happens on one S3, then there's a risk that it would happen on another. Simple enough logic. All I am saying is that in order to guage the risk, you need to be able to quantify it. I'm questioning the "it would make sense to change the rods", and the implication being that there is a big risk for people on stage-1 of their rods bending.

    Just because 4000 people from your town don't get knocked down today on the road, doesn't mean you won't get knocked down, are you going to stay in the house forever?

    What are you basing your absolute sureness on that they are running near their limit on a stage-1? All I can see is that you are basing this on one or two failures. One or two failures where you don't know the cause of the failure.

    Basing this absolute sureness on one or two failures that you have no information about is simply flawed logic.

    If you are basing this on testing that has been carried out on a large enough sample, then it would be useful to post a link so that we can all see this.

    This too is flawed logic and the number that stay in one piece actually is totally relevant. We are talking about Statistics here, which has been around long before the first S3 :) . I'm not going to debate the merit of statistical analysis with you. If you don't see the merit in it, then you won't see the point I am making.

    Every day someone gets killed on the roads. Therefore there is a risk that every time you go on the road you may get killed - albeit a very very small risk. Do you:

    A) Never leave the house.
    B) Accept the risk is low, and get on with life.

    Most people do (B). What you & others on here are advocating is to do (A) i.e. worrying about an extremely small risk.

    In order to determine how big a risk something is, one of the things you need to have is an idea of the probability of it happening. At the moment, we know of one or two failures of rods out of 100's of S3's. On the face of it, that is a very low probability, and thus low risk. But let's see what the poll shows up.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
    #13
  14. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    The point i'm trying to make is that if your engines going to fail, its going to fail, irrespective of how many other S3's have gone before. As well as that, as time goes on, the fatigue in the overstretched rods will increase, and we'll start to see more and more failures.

    Would i change my rods for a simple Stage1 remap? No, i'd ensure the map doesnt run a stupid boost level and silly torque and get on with it.

    If i was going beyond that however, i would, because the cost of a set of rods is pretty meager when compared with the cost of blowing the engine up. Plus you can typically choose to fit the rods as and when it suits yourself, rather than getting dropped in the **** when they do let go.

    If i had the engine apart for any other reason however, i'd be changing them as a matter of course (and thats exactly what i'm doing with my own 1.8T rebuild, running a much smaller K03 turbo than the one fitted to the S3)

    What i'm trying to get across is that how many 1.8T's have gone before doesnt matter. The risk is the same, and increasing with every mile. VW/Audi has built millions of these motors, and most of them are still running quite happily, but a lot of them are now starting to reach 10+ years old, and its simply naive to think that the stock rods (which were originally designed for a naturally aspirated golf back in the 80's) will take it forever.

    If you want some pretend-comfort that its not going to blow up, then fine, you can look here and see 150 ASN users have remapped cars and they havent blown up, but it doesnt change the fact that your rods may fail at any time (or may last for another 5 years running 320lbft).

    You make an analogy with getting knocked down and killed by a car, but you can mitigate against these things, for example, by using your eyes, ears and brain. You cant really do that with the rods, as they're hidden away inside the engine and even if you could see them, the strain/fatigue simply doesnt show. The only real thing you can do is, as above, keep the boost to sensible levels.
    #14
  15. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    I think its all down to personal preference. We now know that there is a slight risk if rods bending in the same way there is a slight risk of the oil pick up clogging and wrecking your turbo.

    If you choose not to replace your rods that's your choice and a risk you all take. The other thing to remember that it isn't a cheap job to pay someone to fit new rods.

    It's a very similar story with cambelts on these cars. Some people have had failure on belts that are only a few years old or haven't covered anywhere near as many miles as Audi recommend in the service book.

    Personally I wouldn't even bother with Stage 2, i'd rather save for a BT conversion then to spend money on the small gain you get from Stage 2 from stage 1. But this is of course my personal view ;)
    #15
  16. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    But again, you can mitigate against the oil issue, by changing it regularly, and if the history is unknown by removing the sump and cleaning it out.

    Similarly with the timing belt, you can realise that manufacturers stretch the intervals out to make them look good on paper, and apply a much shorter interval yourself (say 40k and 3 years rather than 80k and 5 years).
    #16
  17. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    I asked if you had any evidence to back this up. I'm guessing you don't. So you aren't absolutely sure, there's no way you could be, because you've no evidence of this other than one or two cars having problems. Cars you don't have any information about.

    Like I said, if you don't see the merit in statistical analysis, then you won't get the point I am making. You are approaching it from the mindset of "but I could be the unlucky one", even if the chance were 1 in a million. You can't worry about every possible thing that could go wrong, especially if the probability of it going wrong is extremely small.

    No one on here knows what the risk of rods bending on a stage-1 S3 is. It's as simple as that. Statistics can give you a feel for the level of risk.

    Statistics has nothing got to do with pretend comfort as you put it. It's to do with the probabilty of some event happening, in this case, the probability of your rods bending. There is benifit in have an idea of such information. Fair enough if you don't think so, but I do, that's why I created the poll :)

    This is pretty much a contradicition. You start of by saying you can't mitigate against rods bending, then point out that you can look at your boost levels. This is precisely part of the point I am making, and why it would be useful to get more info about cars that do see rods bending.

    Just because someones rods bend on a stage-1, it doesn't mean it was the stage-1 that caused it. It could have been a problem with the car that caused danagerously high boost levels and danagerously high levels of torque.

    All you have to do is look at this thread here http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/112874-badger5-tip-jc-filter-friday-2.html to see abnormally high levels of boost and torque. Levels which are not meant to be in a stage-1.

    You are basically falling into the trap of "I changed A, B broke, so A must have caused B to break". Life is rarely ever as simple as that.
    #17
  18. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    Precisely. I'm not saying the only thing you should base you judgement on is how many cars you see with bent rods on stage-1, it is just one of a few factors worth considering, for example:

    1) Probability of rods breaking
    2) Cost of replacing rods
    3) Cost of fixing car if rods break
    4) How long you intend keeping the car

    You need to weigh them all up. But the goal of this thread is simply to consider the first point. Roughly how many S3's are we seeing with bent rods and get some info about them - what maps they were on, what boost, torque, etc they had, had they any other problems. This sort of info will help others decide the level of risk.
    #18
  19. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Rods have NOT bent - stage 1 map

    * What stage map - stage-1
    * What map - Revo all the way
    * What max bhp- 275bhp
    * What max torque - 290lb/ft Tq
    * How old the car was - 3 years old and still going strong
    #19
  20. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    Sorry to say, but I'm with aragorn on this one, bent rods is just one of those things... it happens to the best of us, even on well maintained cars of the highest level.

    Same as gearbox failures, haven't heard many on the forum if I'm being honest, but it happened to my 55k S3 that gets driven hard for 10% of it's road time, for the rest of the 90%, I drive like a granny.
    #20
  21. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    But just for the record.

    Rods have NOT bent - stage 1 map

    * What stage map - stage-1
    * What map - AmD
    * What max bhp- Suppose to be 252bhp, but made 231 on last RR
    * What max torque - N/A
    * How old the car was - 99' remapped @30k miles or there abouts, now on 60k

    Rods have NOT bent - stage 1 map

    * What stage map - stage-1
    * What map - CC
    * What max bhp- 251.5bhp last RR
    * What max torque - 270lb/ft Tq
    * How old the car was - 155k miles, remapped since 90k I think?
    #21
  22. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    Fair enough, no harm in differing views. But not quite sure what aragorns point is. All I can see is a general view that the poll is a bad idea - without any arguments to back it up. And a thought that regardless of how small the risk is, you should change your rods, because you could be the unlucky one - which seems irrational to me.

    Like I explained, I'm not questioning whether there's a risk of bent rods, I agree there is a risk.

    I am questioning how pervasive the problem is, and what may have contributed to rods getting bent, so that people have information available to make informed decisions. Rather than taking peoples suggestions on here that it's a good idea to change your rods on stage-1 as gospel - opinions based on little or no facts to back them up.

    If you are saying there's no benifit in general principle of gauging how many S3's get bent rods, then you are not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the field of statistics :) . Which is fine, but it doesn't make much sense.

    Ok, we are seeing one or two gearbox failures on remapped cars. So...


    Sound familiar? --> http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/113287-census-2011-how-your-%2Astandard%2A-rods.html#post1175402

    So, I recommend to all S3 owners that it would be a good idea to change their gearbox if they have remapped. Gearbox failure could cause other knock on damage and result in a seriously big repair bill. Good suggestion?
    #22
  23. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    hmm i dunno, The level of engineer that goes into components you would think they would be absolutely identical. But they are obviously close to the limit
    #23
  24. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    i've already said i would not spend a grand to fit rods to an S3, unless its motor was already apart, however i'd also make sure i kept the torque value in check. Why do you keep suggesting that i'm telling everyone to fit rods?

    The stock rods are designed such that they last forever. The calculated fatigue values are so small they're effectively infinite. However thats for a standard engine, with standard torque levels. Once you go beyond this, fatigue is a real issue. In the same way most people would accept that if you rev a standard engine to 8000rpm somethings going to break eventually, exactly the same thing applies to the rods under compressive loads (ie torque).

    VW also build a number of Industrial motors, based around the 1.8T, the most powerful of which makes 300PS. It also only makes 266lbft of torque. The 250hp version of the same industrial motor only makes 221lbft. I will point out however that i've no idea if the rods in the 300ps motor are the same as the S3 ones.

    My point is that theres no reason whatsoever to have a big silly torque spike and eleventy billion torques at 3000rpm, so what i'm saying is people with standard rods should be keeping this in mind and mapping the engine accordingly.

    Just the same way you'd be proactive in mitigating oil sludge or a timing belt failure.
    #24
  25. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    I think you are thinking too much on this. I generally just get into my car and drive the thing, and when the opportunity allows it, I will open her up for a bit of full throttle, but even that's not possible with the amount of traffic on the roads these days.

    The last thing on my mind is thinking about the 'risk' of one of my rods getting bent, the risk is imaginary from my point of view, and this is just my opinion, not shooting the thread down or arguing at you directly. I didn't buy the car to worry about these little maybe's, I hardly use my car as it is, but if it does happen, it's just one of those things....
    #25
  26. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    Not much to think about, from my point of view it is quite simple.

    At the moment, there is no evidence of a big risk of rods bending on stage-1 S3's. Yet over the last while on the forum, there's been several suggestions that people should change their rods. This thread is merely about gathering information about the level of S3's that have bent rods, and particular details about them, in order to have something more concrete than peoples opinions based on little or no facts.

    This may be useful for others to decide how big the risk is, and whether they want to replace their rods. Seems like a good idea to me, if it doesn't to others, then no need to get worked up about it :)

    Quite simple - don't quite see what the debate is about.
    #26
  27. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    Sorry if I you felt I was pointing the finger at you. Although your initial post gave the impression that you were suggesting this. I'm referring to the odd comment you seem to see now and again on the forum that implies there's a serious risk of rods bending on a stage-1 map - when there is simply no evidence of this.

    Totally agree with this point. It would seem to be more useful advise for people to get their torque\boost figures checked rather than suggesting they change their rods.

    But this was not your original point. One of your original points was there's no point in looking at what is happening with other S3s, and there's no point in looking at the particular details of S3's that have bent rods. You've not provided any argument to support this. You just repeat the same thing "statistics don't matter, I could be the unlucky one", which is irrational.

    Another one of your original points was this below. Comments like below are not based on any evidence - I've asked you twice to provide any evidence to back it up, so I'm assuming you don't have any? These kinda comments really aren't helpful - you are pretty much telling people that the rods are running on the limit and could go at any moment. Which based on peoples experience is not the case.

    #27
  28. Sandip
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    Sandip Well-Known Member

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    It's a good idea:thumbsup: Quick easy way to roughly find out how many 1.8t's have suffered conrod failures
    #28
  29. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    Well i personally think it is an oil issue....nobody seems to have shown the bearings from the failed rods.....(proberbly the last thing on their minds when that happens) This is in my own opinion of course...
    In the mk4 golf scene the oil pickup is a bigger worry than the rods, ive had my golf insanely quick with no rod issues, but did have an oil issue
    a grand or so on rods, is a lot of cash for no gains whatsoever apart from mindgame contentment..
    going hybrid or BT is obviously a different story...
    #29
  30. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    Two votes for "Rods bent :-( - on stage-1 map" in the last few minutes...do the voters have any info on these? Would be useful for others to see.
    #30
  31. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    * What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2 stage one
    * What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc. custom map
    * What max bhp they had 250 bhp
    * What max torque they had ?????
    * What max boost they had 20psi
    * How old the car was when it was first remapped? mapped 2010
    * Was there any other issue with the car e.g. was there a problem with oil supply to the engine? no
    #31
  32. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    this is my exact view on rod failure also but never gets awnsered when questioned?
    All this talk of failed rods has'nt been an issue untill now, there have been hundreds of s3's even 1.8t's on this forum since joined and only since recent engine builds has there been talk of upgraded rods and bent rods... for me its not a big issue but one everyone has the right to make there own decision on, for me id rather not touch my engine internals and if the worst happens to me then i will worry about it. others may wish to change there rods thats there choice but this thread is a great idea for people with little engineering knowledge make a decision or at least get an insight into the possibility.
    #32
  33. Essflee
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    Essflee Active Member

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    Bent rod yes,
    Jabba map
    260ish bhp
    300ish torque

    Can't say for definate that there wasn't some other underlying problem, car was regularly serviced etc...

    Though I was thinking about this last night after reading about and I know I kept seeing a knock sensor fault on my car, whether this played a part I don't know. It's possible that there could have been a problem under acceleration and if knock wasn't picked up and timing retarded that this could of caused a bent rod...

    Trying to source other explanations...
    #33
  34. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    knock sensors dont fail, i have changed one knock sensor in 10 years as a mechanic so you deffinantly had an underlying fault with your engine. its possible the rod was slighty bent though before fianlly failing. but i belive there would have been another issue that caused the rod failure in your case
    #34
  35. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    Leggy can you get hold of the bad rod and shell for scientific purposes...lol
    #35
  36. Essflee
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    Essflee Active Member

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    Kev, I kept seeing G61 knock sensor fault, I've had both changed in the past and carried on seeing this fault. I've asked Tuffty in the past for advice because he had the same fault, he rewired the knock sensor all together which I don't know how to do. It's always played on my mind and was thinking last night perhaps this was the problem, I don't know...
    #36
  37. Essflee
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    Essflee Active Member

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    I wish I could Dave, my mechanic didn't seem very interested in taking my old engine to bits, I think it was being picked up in exchange for the new engine, pity really mate, never going to have a definate answer...

    I do agree though that when you consider all the Audi tt's, S3's, Leon Cupras, ibizas etc that are mapped, it does seem a very rare occurrence...
    #37
  38. Mpathe
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    Mpathe 1st gear

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    rods haven't bent

    stage 2
    revo
    24 psi max
    260bhp ?
    300nm ?
    stage 1 map early 2009, stage 2 map late 2010
    110 000
    #38
  39. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    people need to make there own minds up on the scenario, no point telling each other otherwise. no one is wrong, people just have there own ways of weighing it up, whether its worth doing or not to that persons needs/situation.
    #39
  40. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    Who is the 4th one with bent rods?
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