1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

bxe engine ****?

murran Jan 20, 2012

  1. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    anyone had the minor inconveinience of no.2 conrod letting go?

    as you might or might not know i work in a vag specialist in sheffield.

    had a 57 plate a3 come in at the beginning of the week... hole in the side of the block from no.2 conrod letting go....
    i removed the engine/box on wednesday ready for the new lump on monday.

    then today we had an 08 plate golf recovered to us. same engine code. exactly the same, no.2 conrod thru the block behind the aircon pump.

    wtf is going on???

    both less than 60k on them. beware.
     
  2. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    have vag just lost all credibility now? oil pumps/balance shafts, inlet flaps, injectors, chocolate cams, abs units (early mk5 golfs and tourans).

    now these 1.9 tdi bxe engines?
    bkc lumps are the sister engines arnt they?
     
  3. Khufu

    Khufu Well-Known Member

    5,704
    31
    48
    I think if you check both mercedes & bmw you will find a lot of issues too. Its the problem with pushing technology v's cost cutting :-( imho diesels seem to be more delicate nowadays.

    I'm still waiting for audi to design a door that doesn't rub the paint off causing the door to rust :p
     
  4. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    VW Touran Engine Blown Up - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

    so conrods having weakness from the factory?
    is this true that vag know about a flaw in these conrods on certain batch of these engines?

    ive stripped one of these engines now and it looks like the conrod has let go of the gudgion pin to me.
    there is no signs of the conrod seizing on to either the crank of the gudgion pin.
    its a rod failure.... on a standard 105bhp engine.
     
  5. Khufu

    Khufu Well-Known Member

    5,704
    31
    48
    It doesnt sound good. I hope there are no such issues with my AXW petrol engine!
     
  6. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    well the 08 plate golf. ive fitted a recon engine in it last week. @1300 for the engine. seems fine.
    the 57 plate a3 is still at work, were getting a s/h engine with 45k on it for just over a grand. should be getting delivered this week.

    tavy, with full vagsh..... id get moaning at them!!! these are conrods not made properly.
    the conrods on both the engines if had in bits. the little end the gudion pin goes thru has opened up!
     
  7. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,210
    2,487
    113
    Unacceptable really given the testing they're supposed to do on bench tests at factory, but then that's not real world.

    A 105bhp engine giving way at 60k, you'd want to bury it in the dealer forecourt window from where you bought it. Bloody cost accountants and value engineering are a cancer in the automotive industry.
     
    oldoiler and RPB like this.
  8. Khufu

    Khufu Well-Known Member

    5,704
    31
    48
    despite being a premium brand the current range is definitely the result of cost cutting.
     
  9. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    took some pics of the offending engine.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    ive seen rod failures before but these have been siezed bigends. over bent ones from water ingress.
     
  10. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    you wouldnt believe it, but ive changed another bxe engine on an 07 plate golf5 on friday and finished off today. exactly the same conrod failure. 114k this time.

    fitted a second hand engine with 52k on it. spent 8 hours on it in total.

    the failure looks slightly different as its no.3 conrod its let go round the journal and the conrod looks twisted and wedged....... i can get pics if anyones interested, before it gets returned for surcharge?
     
  11. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    ive sent you a pm tisher.
    i wouldnt want to take it on on my drive if thats what you mean lol.

    i really do think there is a defect on these conrods in the bxe engines.

    as i said in my pm to you, if you have full vw history or can provide evidence of quality vw spec oil/filter changes. get it to vw and dont budge till youve got a 100% parts and 50% labour contributions.
    get them to fit a new clutch/flywheel while its in bits and tell them you'll pay these extra parts.
     
  12. SootySport

    SootySport Well-Known Member Team Silver

    2,900
    767
    113
    I dont recall anything like this happening on the early 1.9PD 130, 115, 150 engines, they were bomb proof so it seems cost cutting in rod manufacture on just the newish 105 versions.

    Time to unleash Ann Robinson!
     
  13. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    no its definatly not a lack of oil in these engines that have caused them to let go. look at the top picture i posted in post no.10. that crank journal is totally unmarked!

    obviously as im not the owner of any of the cars ive swapped bxe engines on in the past.... i cant really report it to watchdog/vosa.

    if vosa want to inspect one of these failed engines....... theres still one at work if you want it? id have to ask my boss if its ok first tho.
    itd be interesting to have the other three conrods in that engine tested for manufactering defects dont you think?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  14. a6_chris

    a6_chris Well-Known Member

    1,883
    160
    63
    Is the BLS prone to these problems too?
     
  15. murran

    murran Well-Known Member

    1,545
    39
    48
    the "bkc" and later "bls" 1.9tdi units seem unaffected from what ive read.
    we've had a touran in with the same problem recently..... advised him to kick off at gilders........ they came and collected it. dunno what happened or whether it was covered under warrenty tho.
     
  16. andyherd

    andyherd Member

    62
    1
    6
    Sorry to drag up an older thread but I stumbled across this thread and it struck a chord as I have a BXE engine.

    Did anyone get any further pursuing claims against VAG for remedial work?
     
  17. ALSTEC4

    ALSTEC4 New Member

    1
    0
    1
    Hi Guys, im a travelling sale agent with many years of technical motor vehicle stuff under my belt ,but just lately (the last year or so) ive come across at least 7 bxe engine code 1.9 pd vw motors that have thrown a leg out of bed(rod through the block) on various cyl numbers.
    Now the real strange thing about these motors is that to a unit they all and I mean ALL have been recently serviced sometimes days before sometimes a couple of weeks, and the miles of the motors range between 40-60,000 miles, also in all cases the correct grade oil (pd) mostly quantum has been used with very decent filter vag,knecht etx.
    None of these garages are connected in any way and use varied suppliers for their oils/filters.
    When stripped none of these engines have blocked pick up pipes and in fact some sump areas are spotlessly clean.
    The only thing that is almost consistent is the "blueing" of the crank big end bearing journal on the failed rod.
    Also at this moment in time I have the remains of a number 3cyl con rod and piston in the boot of my car which im taking to try and analyse the reason for failure in the next few days.
    But this is certainly something VAG should be investigating seeing as other engine codes of the pd variants don't seem to have a fraction of the failure rate of the bxe,s .

    I really hope they help out the owners who have suffered from this problem,and it would also give back credibility to the garages who have serviced these vehicles before failure occurred.
    Good luck guys.
     
  18. a6_chris

    a6_chris Well-Known Member

    1,883
    160
    63
    I've just renewed my Audi Extended Warranty for a ur their 2 years so should my 1.9 BLS go bang it'll be covered, on 78k now.

    Are the bxe and bls related in anyway?
     
  19. jsosic

    jsosic Member

    206
    2
    18
    I have 09 1.9tdi pd, where can I find an engine code to check it out if it's BXE? It's one of the latest engines in the series (was replaced with 1.6tdi cr few months after car was bought).
     
  20. jsosic

    jsosic Member

    206
    2
    18
    Haha, I have 56 plate BXE. Nice. Last three months were hillarious for me, just one bad news after another. I didn't even need to go to my car to check it after I have seen this thread, I could have guessed it's a BXE :-/ Currently with 45k miles. I was thinking about remapping the engine with REVO but I guess that would push conrod even more to the limit :-/
     
  21. dak

    dak New Member

    1
    0
    1
    Hi

    I have a VW Touran 1.9 TDi with a BXE engine, the car's from 2007 and mileage is 73K
    The car's currently in a VW dealer and prior to applying for the manufacturer's good will they have implied an "independent" investigation lasting 8hrs at a rate of £120/hr be carried out to establish it was VW conrod failure prior to agreeing any financial commitment from VW's part towards replacing or contributing to the engine's replacement's cost....
    I am in serious doubt about the whole thing seeing as they could come back and tell me anything without me being able to verify any of their claims....
    I could use a third party watchdog being involved in this prior to seeing £960 quidd going down the drain with the further option of forking out £ 4,500 for a new engine, seeing an official dealer doesn't install second hand engines....

    The dealer's original diagnose was:
    "We have inspected your vehicle and found an extreme oil leak at engine. The engine has hydrauliced and damaged cylinder 4.We recommened a replacement engine , gaskets, oil, housing and coolant hoses.
    Replacement Engine - £4517.66
    Labour - £1439.64"

    Could anyone advise what would be the official route to follow ?!
    I'd be happy to join forces with anyone trying to prove VW's fault on engine's failure !

    Dak
     
  22. Fergusmalhoon

    Fergusmalhoon New Member

    8
    0
    1
    I have read this thread with interest, I have a similar tale......I have a 2009 1.9tdi with 40k miles, engine code is BLS, its got fsh but only with main dealer to 2010. ive had the car 2 years and upto recently been reliable. 3 months ago the fan belt snapped and damaged the timing belt so needed both replacing. This weekend it just lost power whilst wife and kids in it, no noise no smoke no lights on dash, doing about 50 mph and left stranded on side of busy rd-AA recovered and said looked like engine seized. Took to local garage, who have confirmed the a rod is damaged, though doesn't appear to have come away, there is a hole in the top of the piston head suggesting may be from above, crankshaft may be damaged and there is a chunk of steel and shards in the sump - so likely to be cheaper to replace the engine. Having looked around the web for replacement or remanufactured engines, there seems to be a lot cowboys out there with grim reviews on many sites. I have found what looks to be a well regarded & FER accredited business called Ivor Searle in Ely who will deliver remanufactured engine for £2k & take the old one back so need a fitter as well. My options seem to be 1) seek redress with Audi but said it was down to dealer, I spoke to my 2 local dealers with one saying no way & the other want upto 6 hrs to strip the engine at £97ph and then depending on what they find may offer towards new engine but its discretionary and dependent on using them and 6k for then engine alone though get 2k back if engine ok!?! 2) Get an replacement engine fitted and get rid, though sits uneasy with me 3) Get the warrantied engine from the likes of Ivor Searle and stick with the car (and take out some kind of extended car warranty) or 4) Sell car as a non runner-Im based in Yorkshire, can anyone recommend sources for replacement engine-pretty peed at Audi, appreciate it's not been serviced in vag dealer but has been serviced & the garage all run Vw so know there stuff, the car is 54months old and 40k miles if that's not a defect I don't know what is. I will notify vosa & watchdog
     
  23. SamRadders

    SamRadders New Member

    1
    0
    1
    Hi guys,

    Just signed up to sign in and say that lo and behold the engine in my 75,000 mile Golf 1.9TDI 08 blew the conrod through the block and is now royally knackered! Am really struggling to find a second hand engine from a reputable merchant. So many rip offs out there. Any suggestions where to source one from? I'm based up Liverpool way. Charles Trent had one for a split second and it changed hands as I was on the phone.

    VW dealer had the same view as with everybody else. Tough luck basically! Absolutely livid!!!!

    Any advice appreciated.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  24. Rolly88

    Rolly88 Member

    50
    6
    8
    I had this back in Jan. Nice spec, 57 Golf 1.9tdi 105k on clock and for no reason out of the blue conrod blew. I'd had it for 4.5 yrs, looked after it well but made no difference. It was a BXE engine code. In the end I sold it for £1k as cost to replace engine and all the other bits that had been damaged as a result just wasn't worth it, even with a refurb engine. Needless to say I was fuming especially after a quick google of the BXE engine code. I'd bought it because it was meant to be a solid car but hey.

    Anyway, got an A3 now, hence joining this forum. 59 A3 sportback 2.0tdi Sport 170. Its great fun, just same spec inside isn't as good as the old Golf. O well, that can be sorted, just got to convince the other half now...
     
  25. VAG_BADGER

    VAG_BADGER Ricers in the rear view!

    100
    7
    18
    We own a workshop and maintain a fleet of Jetta's with the BXE engine. I don't think one has come to the end of its 4 year life span with the company without throwing a conrod (usually #2). The only notable reason we see for this is the conrod's are considerably thinner than the older TDI's and a lot lighter, presumably to lower the reciprocal weight. We have adapted the older PD130 (ASZ etc) block to fit which can be had for pennies and are built twice as strong (the rods are at least twice as thick). Most of the conversion is bolt & go, the difficulty is boring the hole for the crank sensor and fitting the pick-up ring on the crank. We've done quite a few now and they've had zero issues since. We've also gone to the lengths of fitting 4 PD130 pistons & rods in the higher mileage ones before the inevitable happens! Just a thought if you're reading this thread with this known issue having caused you problems!
     
    vaguely likes this.
  26. yuriPT

    yuriPT New Member

    1
    0
    1
    Hi Murran, can you precise what you mean by"later bls" units?

    My BLS was built on 08/08, according to the sticker on the timing belt cover.

    Tks
     
  27. sippinonmilk

    sippinonmilk New Member

    1
    0
    1
    Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum but have been using vw forums for a while now, i currently drive an 06 golf tdi with the BXE engine discussed in this thread. I've not had any issues with mine (touch wood) but have been looking at this issue for a while now on some other forums etc. this is clearly a common fault that audi/vw dont want to admit to, which when you considor the cost implications is understandable (although not right!). From some research ive found the issue to be with a new production process involved in making connecting rods for the new BXE engines. Something called 'Fracture Splitting' was used by Vag when making the rods for this engine, instead of machining each rod from two prices of metal they instead produce the rod whole and then split it so the big end can go around the crank. This has been investigated by a German company who have found the process actually changes the properties of the metal making it weaker and more prone to breaking under stress. Unfortunately this information doesnt provide an easy fix to the effected engines, i would imagine the only sure fix is to replace the connecting rods with proper machined ones, although thats a major job and would cost £1000's.

    However maybe for those who have had to replace engines it would be a good idea to get this done in their new BXE unit instead of running the risk of it happening agen? Obviously when replacing a whole engine the cost of adding new rods would be a lot less whilst the engine is out and stripped down anyway!

    I'm interested in seeing the continuing comments on this thread, maybe a small database of all BXE owners and those affected would shed some light on trends helping identify those particular engines at risk?
     
  28. ExBXE

    ExBXE New Member

    3
    0
    1
    Hi folks. I've been visiting this site for a while now and very useful it is too. I thought I should register and give my recent experiences with the dreaded BXE engine. I bought a 2008 Seat Leon 1.9 TDi with the above engine in it about two years ago with 40000 miles and full service history. (on the grounds that it must be a better car than our aging Peugeot 307 and it might last ten years if we look after it) We have since brought the mileage up to 76000 with another three services and an oil and filter change between services using VW LongLife lll oil and Mhale filters every time. It's also never been low on oil while we've owned it and it doesn't use much oil either.
    My other half rang me a few weeks ago complaining of loss of power and loud tapping noises from the engine. It was also difficult to start when warm and had refused to start for her at a railway crossing on her way home, very unusual. I went and started the engine which initially sounded normal and then the tapping started to get loud when revved which sounded like a faulty hydraulic lifter. I checked the camshaft and tappets but they looked ok, so I drained the oil and removed the sump to find that No4 big end bearing shells had collapsed and badly damaged the crank. I also removed the other big ends to find the shell surfaces to be delaminating!! No evidence of lack of oil or overheating. The other journals were undamaged, but a good proportion of the shell surfaces had lifted off and disappeared.
    I can imagine that eventually No4 conrod might have ended up coming through the block if it had been driven much further. Anyway to cut a long story short, I felt the most economical repair was to fit a second hand BKC engine (thanks to the info on this website) which fitted perfectly and is running very nicely so far (touch wood). I replaced the BKCs big end shells before fitting just for piece of mind really, they still looked ok when I removed the old ones. I can confirm that the cranks are different, the BKC being much more substantial than the BXE.
    I would probably recommend that the people out there who still own this engine should check/replace their big end shells to prevent possible serious damage.
    I'm very grateful for all the useful stuff posted on here and it definitely helped me make my mind up about how to go about the repair.

    Many thanks
     
  29. Bobmonster

    Bobmonster New Member

    2
    0
    1
    My 2007 Audi Sport 1.9 Diesel with BXE engine (105k on clock) has just blown on the M25. Greenflag say something has came out the engine and created a hole resulting in major loss of oil

    I bought the car 2 years ago from an independent dealer(now gone out of business) and it has been serviced regularly since I've had it . Prior to that it was a leased car and again full service record at Audi Reading.

    I've since heard that this engine has a weakness and this has happened to other owners

    I've spoken to Audi Bolton where I live and they say they will inspect the engine and send a full report to Audi. I'm not confident that they will pay for a new engine and I don't believe I have any legal position to pursue Audi for compensation as it is a known problem. Does anyone have any advice on what grounds I could make a claim against them?
     
  30. kevjam

    kevjam New Member

    2
    0
    1
    Looks like I will be joining the unlucky group of cheesed off A3 owners today, me and the wife had a great weekend in Cornwall 9th-11th May, we left joining the A30 from Newquay after doing around 300 miles visiting the area.
    We got as far as 75 miles from home when clunk, my engine sounded as though it had a bag of spanners in it losing power we just managed to find the next layby coasting in with the clutch in ( not that it would help)!
    We subsequently got towed home by a nice RAC bloke with oil flowing from the engine, once the local garage had it today they relayed the bad but now common news that number 4 conrod had found it's way out of it's nice warm home and ended up in the sump.
    We aren't that well off and saved hard to get what we thought was going to be the most reliable and expensive car we have ever bought, 2007 model BXE with 86,000 on the clock, we have had it for 2 1/2 years bought from a local police woman. We had the cambelt done and kept up the servicing like never before on any of the other cars we owned. I am now wondering what the hell we can do to sort this out, after reading the threads it looks like tough s##t from Audi. I don't know whether to sell it as is or get it repaired, any suggestions would be appreciated, either way we will lose money just trying to see what hurts less.
    I will be copying this to watchdog as suggested and maybe if more of us complain it stands a better chance of becoming an issue worth air time.

    Regards
    Kev
     
  31. Bedders

    Bedders Member

    104
    6
    18
    I really feel for all you people. I own an Audi A3 (but not with the bxe engine) but the one I have in mine has a load of its own well documented issues.

    All I would suggest is you all keep on at Audi head office customer services. I've made it clear to them not to send me anymore branding or marketing from the VAG group as I wont be purchasing anymore of their over priced & absolutely shocking metallurgy or piddle poor blow moulded plastic.
     
  32. Joelle

    Joelle New Member

    1
    0
    1
    Hi all, what an unlucky bunch we are?! Same thing happened to us on our 5 year old Skoda Octavia, same engine (and a BXE) faithfully serviced at Skoda Leicester. Now we just have a pile of **** that was worth at least 6k before the conrod decided it wanted to get out! Skoda are denying any responsibility but willing to offer 20% off of new engine. So 5k repair bill instead of 6. Not good enough. I agree with other posters that we should get together and fight this, not quite sure how, so any suggestions? Maybe a Facebook page to get people from all the different forums etc. in one place? This is a serious safety issue, my partner was in the outside lane on the M40 on a friday afternoon when it happened, no warning whatsoever! He was lucky, could have caused a nasty accident.
    We are in the process of getting in touch with as many consumer associations as possible, including Which? and DVSA. Someone suggested Watchdog too. Here's a photo, hope it uploads. A little hole in the engine.jpg
     
  33. Bobmonster

    Bobmonster New Member

    2
    0
    1
    First of all sorry to hear about another victim of the BXE time bomb I've paid my local trusted motor engineer about £4k to fit a used engine (the model before the BXE.) plus I'm out of pocket £400 for car hire. The only slight good news is the used engine has done only 42k miles whereas the damaged engine had done 105k. Regarding the law I believe my chances of success in litigation against Audi are very slim. I didn't buy the car from them, the car company I bought it from have now closed and the car is 7 years old so outside the 6 year time bar for serving a writ on Audi on grounds of not fit for purpose and even then you would need an expert witness to show that there is a basic weakness in the design. I've decided not to go down that route but others may want to ask a good lawyer as they could have different circumstances from me. most home insurance now provides legal cover for litigation so you should not have to worry about the cost. Regarding giving Audi bad PR I've written to watchdog but got no reply. I'm thinking of writing to Jeremy Clarkson as I imagine he would give Audi a bashing on our behalf. Good luck and let's just be grateful nobody has been killed like the previous person I was doing 70 mph in the middle lane of the M25 with my wife and my daughter with her wedding dress and honeymoon clothes on board. Top marks to Greenflag for coming to our rescue and giving us a loan car to get back to Manchester
     
  34. kevjam

    kevjam New Member

    2
    0
    1
    This looks like a hole in your sump, if so you may be lucky. Check that there isn't a hole in your bottom block, mine had which meant an extra expense in getting a replacement engine.
    I used THE Engine company online, Dave the dealer was very good and communicated with my local garage John at Autoworx in Exmouth who dealt with taking the engine out and replacing it with the refurbed one (recommend him if your close I've been taking my vehicles to him for three years very fair). Mine cost £1400 for the replacement plus £500 for removal and refit, the engine I got was like new no touch ups or hiding anything, he builds out the inherent problem with the BXE engine with a 6 month warranty. Your basically getting a zero mile engine with new pump cam belt etc.
    I contacted watchdog with no reply, but I did get a reply from Audi UK, exactly what I expected no liability is going to be admitted by them. Cop out ! I have attached the reply below.
    Good luck with yours I feel for you, Audi did say that because my car hadn't been serviced regularly at one of their dealerships that they couldn't help, the fact that it had been serviced with full stamps at an X Audi mechanics garage didn't make a difference. I wonder what other excuse they would have made had it been done by them!!
    If yours was serviced at Skoda try throwing this mail at them from Audi.



    Audi UK <information.centre@audi.co.uk>


    May 28 (10 days ago)








    From… Audi UK Customer Services



    Subject: AU-2014/05-015539

    Dear Mr Jamieson

    Thank you for your recent contact.

    Unfortunately, as the vehicle has not been serviced at an Audi Centre in 7 years, we would not be able to offer any form of
    goodwill support in this instance.

    I understand this is not the answer you were hoping for, but hope I have explained the reasons behind our decision. If I can be
    of any further assistance, please contact me on the details below.

    Thank you for contacting Audi UK.

    Kind regards


    Scott Lee
    Customer Relations Advisor
     
  35. krajan79

    krajan79 New Member

    2
    0
    1
    Hi, my story is exactly same, i have 08 plate vw golf, bought couple months ago, bxe engine, firstly the turbo oil feed pipe had a leak, then one day on way back from airport the engine "blown up" and stop. There is hole in a bottom, not sure how does it look but im sure it is same kind of problem. cant buy reconditioned engine as most of garages is selling them on part exchange basis... but wont take engine with a hole. anyone could help me? any advice, where to go? watchdog or vosa, any help from them?
    many thanks, adam
     
  36. krajan79

    krajan79 New Member

    2
    0
    1
    to add - it is second engine in this car, previous one did same thing and was replaced, private dealer who sold it to me didnt mention that, otherwise i wouldn't bought it...
     
  37. gorilla

    gorilla New Member

    1
    0
    1
    ok I am fitting no 2 BXE engine in 08 golf at 125,000 miles at a cost of about a grand including fitting. Rather than cry in my beer, which conrods should I fit into my old engine for when this ones conrods go buggered? seems a sensible thing to do as i like the car and despite the fault i have a goosed engine which only needs a bit of tinkering to turn into a solid replacement when my second replacement goes bang.
     
  38. LMcN

    LMcN New Member

    1
    0
    1
    I viewed an '09 a3 1.9 tdi today, went home an done a Hpi to be told it was a BXE I was looking at? Is this correct, I thought the BXE was only in the 06/07/57 a3? The actual head of the engine looked like the BLS also?
     
  39. vaguely

    vaguely New Member

    4
    0
    1
    im unfortunate enough to have the bxe engine in my car and the inevitable happened four days before xmas .
    id be more than interested in this conversion you mention above and willing to pay the price of fitting etc
    please get in touch VAG_badger
     
  40. C.Long

    C.Long New Member

    13
    0
    1
    My 57 Plate A3 BXE engine decided to commit suicide on the M4 last month. She was only 96K. Although i had the car remapped, i don't believe this would of caused it. As far as servicing goes; Full service history with weekly inspections (the car is my pride and joy).

    for anyone wondering what engine to get next, I'm now running a 52K BKC engine donated from a MK5 Golf. I can't find any issues with these engines on the forums.
     

Share This Page