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Bumble is poorly....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Welly, May 31, 2012.

  1. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 31, 2012]
    Bad news.

    Bumble is poorly.

    To give you some background on this.... I've done around 35000 miles since rebuild back in Feb 2010.

    All has been good, we've seen a host of different setups together on the 1.8t platform, and it's all been good.

    However - I have never been able to get rid of this annoying lifter tap despite having the head rebuild several times over the last 2 years, it's always been there.

    Only used to moan when cold, then would go away once warm, but always been annoying. I've ignored it for about 12 months now as it wasn't that annoying and all has been well.....

    ...Until about a week ago.

    She was due a service anyway, and my tapping was getting more annoying, and lasting longer. So I gave it a service as you do, slapped a flush through it for good measure expecting everything to be lovely.

    Tapping still there, worse than it has been ever. Arse.

    So, I decide it must be time to change the lifters. Used my stethoscope to try and locate which lifter was rattling and it sounded more prominent from the inlet side.

    Swapped out the inlet lifters last night expecting all to be well. (A surprisingly easy job as it turns out - exhaust much harder).

    Engine fires up and new lifters are chattering away from where they are dry-ish. Lets put it this way, the sound of those lifters was nothing like the noise I can hear... which made me a tad concerned.

    Led down on the floor and put the stethoscope tip on the sump.... oh dear... the noise is very evident and clearly not coming from the top end...

    Uh oh....
    #1
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  3. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [May 31, 2012]
    Bad news bud, not what you need.

    I hope it's nothing to serious, happy to lend a dogs body hand if you need one. :)
    #2
  4. Sandra
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    Sandra MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator

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    [May 31, 2012]
    ​Hope you get her sorted out soon Welly. Get the boys round for som lnm. :) x
    #3
  5. Yohan87
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    Yohan87 Member

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    [May 31, 2012]
    Sounds like an expensive noise :(
    #4
  6. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 31, 2012]
    Thanks dude. But it will be! lol.

    Bottom end noise is bad bad bad.
    #5
  7. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 31, 2012]
    I'm amazed the way I drive it it's taken this long! lol
    #6
  8. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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  9. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 31, 2012]
    Surely it couldn't be a big end bearing as once they start to knock they'll destroy themselves in miles especially on a high bhp engine.

    Have you got riffle drilled rods? Could it be a small end bearing or oil pump?

    Bad news either way, sorry to hear .
    #8
  10. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [May 31, 2012]
    where the hell did my post go? it's vanished. Oh well, I'll repeat.

    Welly, do you think it's little end rattle like tufty had?

    You've done more miles than most with built engines, and you've also got more power, and I know your rods arn't rifle drilled.....

    Would make sense for sure
    #9
  11. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 31, 2012]
    Agreed - I would have thought so too. Oil pump has been changed in the last 10K, and it did it before and after.

    I agree, but I hope it's not.

    I am going to replace the shells for good measure - I can do that for £70 and it's worth testing.

    I don't want to rip the block apart - hence why I am going as always with cheap option first.

    I will do if I have to and then I will consider my options.
    #10
  12. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 31, 2012]
    If you do the shells then you'll be able to see if the small ends have any movement.
    #11
  13. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 31, 2012]
    TBH Dan, they'd have to be hanging off to be detectable by had like that. Mine has a rattle that i can't find either Welly, I am not at Bills till Thurs next week, but you welcome to come and compare rattling 20V's mate

    #12
  14. Dan s3 audi
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    Dan s3 audi Member

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    [May 31, 2012]
    my car has a simular problem, horrible and loud tap from topend only ever when the car is cold and has not been run for a few hours before. after around one min the noise just disapears.
    #13
  15. Sam_
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    Sam_ Down under

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    [Jun 1, 2012]
    Little ends do sound a bit like old skool tappets that need adjusting, from memory.
    #14
  16. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 1, 2012]
    I've been and got some shells from Bill so I will find out over the weekend....
    #15
  17. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jun 1, 2012]
    Welly, I'm impressed at the amount of BT milage you've had out of your car anyway!

    If this noise has been there since your rebuild then it's obviously not a major issue or something would have let go by now. Hope it's easy to find, unlike your clunk you've been searching for :)
    #16
  18. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 6, 2012]
    OK then.... swapped the shells out for new ones.... It's not them.

    Boooo.

    What to do now?

    My brain says burn it.

    Suspect that it's the fatal wrist pin tapping that seems to happen...
    #17
  19. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 6, 2012]
    Can you drive the car down to Bills this week? I am quite familiar with the small end noise...

    <tuffty/>
    #18
  20. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 6, 2012]
    Yeah mate, when you free?

    Give me a call later or something :thumbsup:
    #19
  21. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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  22. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 8, 2012]
    OK then, so this looks now to have turned into a rebuild thread...

    Being unable to determine whether the noise I have is from the wrist pins, or the crank bearings.... I have decided to eliminate both at once.

    I won a used AGU engine off of Ebay yesterday for £195 delivered (bargain). It's done 97,000 miles with proof of milage. Bummer is that the belt has snapped so most likely some valves will have gone south. Not really an issue for me as I only want to block so will sell or chuck the rest away.

    That should be here Tuesday :).

    Was toying with the idea of copying Andrew@ALD's build using a MK4 TDI crank and JE pistons to make a 2086 stroker. However I have done some research and decided against it for several reasons:

    1) Money. I don't have much of it. I need to concentrate more on building a reliable engine, rather then a more powerful one. My block's bores are in a **** state to be honest, and this won't be helping power. If I want more power I'll just up the boost.

    2) Reliability. None has really long term run a 2.1 TDI stroker for any length of time. I don't want to be doing this again in 6 months time.

    3) Rod angles. The TDI crank 2.1 stroker gives some rod angles that I am not sure I would be 100% happy with...

    So, what am I doing instead?

    Going to rebuild all my gear into a (third) new block basically. Head will stay as is and will be fitted to the new block.

    Rods and pistons I have currently will be swapped over to the new block as well. There is potential there to need new wrist pins and rings, but I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

    Hoping that the shells I have fitted to my current AGU will go again, they only did about 1500 rotations and then the engine was shut down - so they should be OK.

    New PAS pump will be fitted. Air con compressor is going to be removed completely along with the pipework and rad. I will need a different serp belt for this but that's cool.

    I have just ordered a 10lb T6 billet aluminium SMF from the states - seen here: F1 RACING LIGHTWEIGHT ALUMINUM FLYWHEEL NON-U.S. CAR 99-2005 AUDI S3 1.8L TURBO | eBay. I managed to get this from the for £176 delivered. It's going to chatter, but oh well.

    I have also ordered from the UK a Sachs clutch and cover plate. I don't want a paddle clutch as I don't like them personally.

    Other than that, just ordered the usual odds and sods for rebuild (again), as well as an engine stand. Much easier to build a block on a stand...

    Won't be starting till next week really at the earliest - need to assemble the parts first really.
    #21
  23. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    [Jun 8, 2012]
    Ins and ie have told me the rod angle is not perfect but is a reliable, I have yet to hear or see one with high miles but as I only do 5k a year I'm ok but with the miles you do I can see why
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
    #22
  24. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 8, 2012]
    Absolutely, and don't get me wrong, I'm not slating the setup at all. I think it's a good and inexpensive way of getting some vry good displacement.

    I am planning to keep my block, bore it to 83mm and actually do this in the future, just not immediately. I can just bolt it up to the stand and do it as and when I have some spare cashola. At that point I can always slap it in.

    As I said, I need to know that this will work reasonably reliably which is uncertain at the moment...
    #23
  25. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jun 8, 2012]
    I'll be honest Welly, I think keeping your rods is a fail.

    You've already swapped the big end shells, over, so it's not that, you've rebuilt the head a few times, so it's not that. Tufty suffered from small end rattle in less miles than you with less power, so my money is still on little ends being the issue.

    If you keep your rods, you'll need new wrist pins, and the rod will need rebushing too, which will cost. And you'll still end up with rods that are not rifle drilled, so the problem will probably come back.

    By the time you've spent that money, you've over half way to a new set of rifle drilled rods!

    Sack off the non drilled rods if you want to build a reliable motor!
    #24
  26. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 8, 2012]
    It depends on what I find when I get the lump apart mate to be fair. I may well not need new wrist pins, depends purely on the wear and tear on them.

    I know that my wrist pins when they got fitted were VERY tight as to get in - I also know that Tuffty's weren't from memory.

    Moreover, I personally do suspect the crank bearings. Listening with a stethoscope points down that way, hence why I changed the shells. I will have a better idea when I can see them once the lump is out.
    #25
  27. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jun 8, 2012]
    Won't it be the small end bushes rather than the wrist pin?
    #26
  28. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 8, 2012]
    Not really no... I had a small end rattle for ages and when I finally stripped the engine the pins had deep grooves in them...
    [​IMG]

    <tuffty/>
    #27
  29. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 11, 2012]
    Work has commenced over the weekend, well yesterday, as I had very little else to do for a change.

    Waiting on parts mainly, including the other engine so can't really do a great deal at the moment.

    Anyway, got the engine ready to come out...

    Started like this:

    [​IMG]

    Then moved on to this:

    [​IMG]

    Followed by this:

    [​IMG]

    And has now been left like this:

    [​IMG]

    Now awaiting the arrival of my new engine crane - old one is shafted sadly. Once the engine is out, I'll get it on the stand an inspect.

    Turbo has come off in very good condition indeed. No crack in the hotside or play in the turbine which made me happy...
    #28
  30. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jun 11, 2012]
    Nice quick work mr Welly. Looking forward to the strip down.
    #29
  31. Reesy
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    Reesy Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 11, 2012]
    Gay.
    #30
    [Dave B] likes this.
  32. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 11, 2012]
    Yeah, me too dude! Interested to see what I find.

    (Ignore Reesy's homophobic comments....:thumbsup:)
    #31
  33. rhubarb4
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    rhubarb4 Certified Jardo Slayer

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    [Jun 11, 2012]
    How are you set for inters do you think bumble will make a show.

    Chris.
    #32
  34. CHEZ
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    CHEZ moderately amusing

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    [Jun 11, 2012]
    colour co-ordinated waste oil container too! nice! :beerchug:
    get well soon bumble!
    #33
  35. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 12, 2012]
    Unlikely I'm sad to say :(
    #34
  36. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 12, 2012]
    LOL, good spot. Weird isn't it - it was just the first one of the many I grabbed!
    #35
  37. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 12, 2012]
    Stuff is slowly appearing at my office as the week progresses, had 10 deliveries yesterday, clutch should be waiting for me at home tonight when I get back...

    New engine crane arrived earlier, just waiting on the engine, a non air con poly V belt and the flywheel...
    #36
  38. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 14, 2012]
    Stripped down the new engine last night which was enjoyable. Largely done with an impact gun!

    Even though the belt has snapped, the head only has 3 bent valves which is a miracle really on a 20v head.

    Block is in good condition, the shells that came out were in good nick and the cross hatchings on the bore are really nice and clearly visible with next to no lip at the top. In much better nick than mine!

    Will drop one of the crank caps to have a look at the main bearings as well.

    Also want to drop the oil filter housing off to have a lookie see inside. Anyone know the part number for the gasket on replacement?

    Few photos:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Flywheel will be here shortly so will get some pics up of that when it arrives :)

    [​IMG]
    #37
  39. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 14, 2012]
    Also, forgot to say I've got my special aux belt for air con delete.

    Bit of a PITA to get hold of - I ended up just getting one from Audi.

    Will find the part number on it later and list it here for future reference :thumbsup:
    #38
  40. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Jun 14, 2012]
    Filter housing to block gasket number is 06A115441J £8.56 inc vat :)
    #39
  41. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jun 14, 2012]
    Cheers Jas, I will get one today.
    #40

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