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Braded brake line and brake fluid help.

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Westy, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 23, 2010]
    I'm planning on changing my brake fluid and hoses in February and needed a little advice.

    - Firstly can anyone recommend any hoses as i've seen a few different ones ranging dramatically in price, for example:

    Neuspeed Teflon coated pipes with stainless brade:
    http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=3676&xSec=381 = £122.79

    Neuspeed Teflon coated pipes with stainless brade:
    http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=10062&xSec=381 =£161.56

    HEL Teflon coated pipes with stainless brade:
    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-S3-Quatt...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4838758632 =£59.93

    Obviously I want a decent hose as the brakes are quite important :whistle2: but surely a teflon braded hose is a "teflon braded hose"!

    Secondly I need help with the brake fluid side of things. The car is used every day and occaisionally goes to the Nurburgring or the odd track day so I dont need racing spec fluid. What fluid do people recommend?

    Thirdly, does anyone have any guides for changing the brake lines and bleeding the brakes? I've got the Ross-Tech guide to cycle the ABS pump so that will help but i'm after something more brake specific.

    And finally, is it worth me changing my brake master cylinder while i'm doing all this just to be on the safe side?

    thanks in advance guys :salute:
    #1
  2. tompearson
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    tompearson It's all in bits

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    [Jan 23, 2010]
    I just ordered some Goodridge braided hoses for about £54 delivered from ebay. My assumption is that they have to be better than the OEM ones that have been on the car for 10+ years now which is all I am after at the moment. Plus they are red. £160 seems like a huge amount of money, maybe better off putting that towards a big brake kit which comes with braided hoses.

    I have found these guides so far:
    - Audi World
    - MKIVs

    I'm sure I have seen bits and pieces on here too, but search was disabled last time I tried - hence trying elsewhere.
    #2
  3. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 23, 2010]
    The hose bit yeah but some use plated fittings and some pukker stainless steel... get stainless steel

    Motul RBF660 all day long... DOT 4 so not as spongy as DOT 5.1 but is as good performance wise as DOT 5.1... 3 x 500ml bottles should be more than enough

    Grab a pressure bleeder kit (I have the Gunson Ezi-Bleed... ebay, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360198798752), a mate, a syringe (or pippet) to syphon excess fluid from the reservoir and some empty 500ml coke (or fizzy tipple of choice) bottles... I did write this same info on another post on here a while back including the way I bleed brakes...

    hummm... good question... not an easy job tbh, I was going to do mine the next time I take the head off as tbh that gives you the best access to it... its very tight. The MC is about £200 from Audi but GSF do them for around £100...

    On the subject of the MC, you can also bleed this but as long as you don't let the fluid go below the take off for the clutch cylindar it won't be nessecary.

    Don't do the 'stamp on the peddle' technique for bleeding brakes as when the pedal goes full travel as you let out the fluid there is a chance the MC seals can get damaged so pressure bleed FTW.

    <tuffty/>
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  4. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 23, 2010]
    Cheers Tom for the guides. Yeah the search facility it total tripe at the moment! I'm thining about the HEL ones above from eBay as they are teflon with braided stainless steel cover and a life time warrenty.

    Paul thanks for your input, its always nice to hear. What hoses are you running out of interest? Also what are your opinions on the HEL ones from the link in my original post?
    #4
  5. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 23, 2010]
    Bill gets the ones I have made up, pukker stainless steel fittings etc...

    The HEL ones look ok mate.... it states stainless steel fittings so all should be good..

    <tuffty/>
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  6. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 23, 2010]
    How long roughly should I allow myself to do the lines and the fluid, bear in mind that I have access to a pit so its a bit easier than on the driveway? I think I'm going to purchase some of the HEL lines now then. Do you think the coloured ones would be ok? I was thinking red to match the callipers even though most of the lines wont be seen!

    Also can Bill get hold of the brake fluid? Its on eGay but only from the US!
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
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  7. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 23, 2010]
    Pressure bleeding won't take long, couple of hours tops... Tip for using the EEZI Bleed tool, fit the cap to the reservoir first and pressure test the kit first with no fluid in it as a leak from the reservoir cap will leak fluid out making a right mess and you will need to clean it all down with brake cleaner (buy some of that any way).

    Once you are happy with the seal of the reservoir cap (it doesn't need to be on as tight as you think it does) you can fill the bottle with fluid and off you go.

    Don't use more than 20psi either. Let the pressure of the wheel you will use to supply the pressure down to 20psi, any more than this and the fluid can oxygenate from the pressure actually defeating the point of what you are trying to do.

    Bill has Motul RBF660 on the shelf, can't remember how much it is though... £12 ish a bottle I think. He will be at the unit tomorrow so PM him or give him a call on his mobile.

    <tuffty/>
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  8. rossbrownlee
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    rossbrownlee Ross_S4

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    [Jan 23, 2010]
    #8
  9. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 24, 2010]
    I want a firmer pedal feel than the one you get from standard fluid but I dont want to go too harsh.
    #9
  10. rossbrownlee
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    rossbrownlee Ross_S4

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    [Jan 24, 2010]
    Cool, each to thier own, I just wondered how much more of a firmer feel you would be able to achieve. Would have thought that if a hydraulic system is properly bled of all trapped or entrained air including ABS and master cylinder using fresh (i.e. 'dry') liquid it would make an immediate improvement no matter what brake 'fluid' liquid is used.

    Also would be really interested to see how you get on with the braided brake lines as i am seriously considering doing that too!

    Ross
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  11. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 24, 2010]
    Ok mate I'm ordering all the gear this week then I need to arrange a date to use the pit and have a competant mate to help. I'll re-visit this thread and report when I've done it.
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  12. rossbrownlee
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    rossbrownlee Ross_S4

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    [Jan 24, 2010]
    oh yeah the other thing...
    in that guide i sent the link to, it doesn't show the pic with the clutch slave bleed nipple for 6 speed box, it is easy to see. if you look down past the battery and airbox you can see it with its little black rubbery dust cap on.
    #12
  13. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 24, 2010]
    yup keep us posted westle...im interested in this too...... thats if my misus doesnt end up buying an A3 with Brembo's ;) (i said ill buy them off her for £400 and shes bitten my hand off) just need to find one now :)
    #13
  14. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 24, 2010]
    What's you mrs number? I'm going to tell her I'll give her £450 for them haha.
    #14
  15. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 25, 2010]
    shall i sicken you some more....im gonna tell her they are scratched and so not worth as much, £200 and swap for my S3's brakes ;)

    she gave in far too easily to the £400 haha
    #15
  16. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 25, 2010]
    Ok just to let anyone who cares know, the total price for all the gear is as follows. This is a rough price as some of you may be able to get some of it cheaper:

    Motul RBF660 dot 4 brake fluid delivered = £50
    HEL braided stainless hoses delivered = £60
    Ezi-bleed kit delivered = £15
    Brake cleaner = £5

    Total = £130

    I'll be ordering the gear later this week and hoping to do it in a few weeks time.
    #16
  17. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 25, 2010]
    motul (nor any other fluid) when new, will not give a firmer pedal, unless you have air in before hand and not after its bled thru
    if you have spongy pedal its air/gas in the line. I say gas as the fluid is hygroscopic so absorbs moisture, which derates the dry boil point... work the brakes hard and the water absorbed will boil and give gas/steam which is compressable, and pedal sinks to the floor

    Motul is a high temp brake fluid, still a dot 4, still should be changed minimum every 2 years like any other dot 4, but its dry boil temperature is higher than most dot 5.1's
    As used on my own ibiza racecar... which until I switched to motul suffered boiling brake fluid on most other "race" fluids

    works for me, cheaper than Castrols SRF but works as well for me
    #17
  18. Effect
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    Effect Member

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    Bear in mind there are 6 hoses in total
    4 of these are sold in the regular kits that you can buy from the likes of goodridge etc.
    2 of them are the rear most ones for the rear brakes, they are part flexi and part hard brake line (a;pparently)
    The only person who seems to know about these is C&R Enterprises in Nottingham as they told me they have worked in conjunction with goodridge to get them made specially, so if you do change 4 of these brake lines then 2 will still have the flexi part on them.
    I got a total price of £270 supplied fitted and full system bleed for these off C&R

    website
    http://www.candrenterprises.co.uk/

    I have used these guys in the past when no one else seemed to be able to bleed my brakes (JBS included) he sorted them for me, the guy who owns it really seems to know his stuff, but I found that they certainly know how to charge you. (I ssuppose no different to any other specialist, JBS charged me over £100 and never actually sorted the problem)


    Cheers
    James
    #18
  19. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    Thanks for throwing a spanner in the works James!

    Any idea why you only get 4 hoses in a kit then?
    #19
  20. Effect
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    Effect Member

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    Yes, because no one else makes the other 2 hoses, according to C&R anyway.
    #20
  21. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    You must admit that's a little strange! I've never heard anyone else mention these other hoses and out of all the guides i've read through I've not seen them mentioned either! I think i'll just do the 4 supplied in the kit and check the other 2 over when I'm under the car.

    cheers for the info though mate.
    #21
  22. Effect
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    Effect Member

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    They aren't very easy to make due to the way that the 2 different kinds of pipe have to be joined together (sorry that is as technical as my explanation is going to get, ring C&R and he will explain it in full detail for you)
    #22
  23. tompearson
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    tompearson It's all in bits

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    I thought the handbrake was operated by a pair of cables connected to the brake mechanisms at one end and the lever at the other - I.e. not hydraulic brake lines.
    #23
  24. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    All the braided kits for the S3/A3 I have had experience of typically consist of the front hoses and the hoses that connect from the body to the suspension arms. I haven't seen one yet that supplies the hose to the rear caliper due to it being a hybrid hard line/rubber hose jobbie. The rear hose is most likely not a particularly cost effective thing to make due to this and also the limited market for these types of replacement hoses.

    <tuffty/>
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  25. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    it does seem like that last bit of detail that would make the set up complete...although cost you a fortune to achieve and most likely make no noticeable difference
    #25
  26. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 26, 2010]
    I have only changed the front ones on my car... back brakes contribute little in comparison to the fronts....

    <tuffty/>
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  27. Effect
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    Effect Member

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    surely the pedal feel would be affected by all brake lines though tuffty ?


    James
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  28. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    the back wont have as much pressure as the fronts though surely.....im sure there will be some sort of valve that relays most of the braking pressure via the fronts making any change on the back 'less noticeable'
    #28
  29. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    only if your existing hoses are expanding when you press the pedal.
    #29
  30. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    Fronts have the longest run of rubber so replacing them will make a difference anyway, rears have a very short run on both the joining hose and the rear caliper hose so less so.

    At the end of the day, its cost vs benefit... you can get the rears custom made I am sure but at what cost on a road going car especially when the fronts will see most of the heat/pressure generated by braking effort so will go soft and expand more readily than rears.

    Pretty sure Bill runs normal rear brake pipes on his Ibiza race car with just the fronts and body to beam axle hoses being braided...

    Like anything to do with modding and tuning, you hit the point of diminishing returns. replacing front brake setup with DS2500's, braided hoses and using Motul RBF660 fluid will give you excellent performance for your money, splashing out another £100 or so for custom rear hoses not so much...

    Doesn't make it wrong to do, just begs the question is it actually worth it...

    <tuffty/>
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  31. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    #31
  32. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    Ask the seller the question mate... simples :)

    <tuffty/>
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  33. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    Already have but they take bloody ages to reply, I want to order now cos i'm inpatient :)
    #33
  34. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    child :)
    #34
  35. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    We're all the same when it comes to upgrades. Wait till I order my fmic, i wont be able to sleep!
    #35
  36. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    yeah man!!!! :) still cant bring myself to spend £400 on an FMIC :(
    #36
  37. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    Do it, do it, do it, do it... etc... to fade....

    ;P

    <tuffty/>
    #37
  38. Effect
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    Effect Member

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    [Jan 28, 2010]

    I have a solution to that problem, pay for the FMIC and give it to me, that way you wont feel bad about wasting more money on your own car :p
    #38
  39. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 28, 2010]
    You do it in two stages Tim. Get the cooler for £250 + Vat + Delivery then next month get the pipework for £100

    I've just mullered the overtime through January so Febs paycheck will be quite a goodun, either coilovers or FMIC are on the cards :)
    #39
  40. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 28, 2010]
    Ok I got a reply from HEL, the brake lines are for the 8L S3, i'm ordering now :)
    #40

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