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Bottom line with mapping a 2.0 TDi with DSG

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Boyakasha, Oct 12, 2005.

  1. Boyakasha
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    Boyakasha Member

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    [Oct 12, 2005]

    Just wondering everyones thoughts on this. I am tempted to chip the car once it has about 2-3k on the clock but I'm not sure if it is worth it with the DSG.

    At the moment I am seeing figures kicking around for the manual at between 180-190 BHP and 300+ Lbs

    But for the DSG they are limiting it to around 170-180bhp and about 280lbs. So I guess the question is why have Audi made the DSG gear box so that it can't tolerate much more torque than standard and is it worth it getting a remap?

    Marc
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  3. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 12, 2005]
    Probably because the DSG gearbox was designed to suit 99.99% of the purchasers rather than the 0.01% who want to chip their cars.
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  4. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Oct 12, 2005]
    I really did consider chipping the car,and could have pushed my MD to agree to it,but decided against it because of the DSG.

    It was nothing to do with reliability issues.It was all to do with my frustration about how the DSG works (I am very much in the minority).

    If I could find a company that could alter the DSG software to my liking,I would definitely reconsider chipping,and to hell with any reliability issues.

    In answer as to why the DSG can't handle more power,I believe it may be something to do with the fact that the twin clutches have to be small,otherwise the gearbox would be massive.
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  5. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 12, 2005]
    Certainly I've seen articles where it states that the DSG was designed for a torgue limit of 350 Nm and it may well be the clutch size that imposes this limit.

    Diesels, of course, have a higher torgue lever to start with so any chipping would probably soon exceed the limit. The torque on the 2.0TDI is already 320Nm in standard form so there is not much left to play with before the 350Nm limit would be reached.
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  6. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 12, 2005]
    I have found the following further information about the DSG clutches, mainly talking about the Volkswagen Golf R32, but the information is relevent to A3s as well.

    "The clutches are basically not upgradeable because there isn't any room in this particular transmission case. There are two variations of the DQ250 (internal name for the DSG) that have been set up with lesser mechanicals for lower torque rating applications. Those lower torque rated DQ250 transmission could be upgraded with the hirer torgue box internals, but the R32 DSG box is the highest torque rated DSG for the Golf IV platform at this point (and likely for the rest of the Golf IV product lifecycle). Because the DSG is fully electronic, and match-revs downshifts for example, it is tied into the vehicle electronics (including the engine ECU) quite a bit which brings us to the next issue:

    While you will be able to get away with minor power upgrades (intake, chip tuning, exhaust) with DSG, because of electronic protections and a maximum torque rating of 240 lb-ft, you won't want to add forced induction or any other heavy duty power upgrades. The DSG has what is referred to as micro-slippage in the clutch plates that is constantly monitored by the DSG ECU. If you put a supercharger on a car with a DSG transmission, the additional torque will force that micro-slippage beyond normal tolerances. When this happens, the DSG communicates back to the engine ECU and dials back timing and/or engine revs to try and correct for the "problem" it is seeing.

    The natural assumption is that someone in the aftermarket will simply find a way around this and may attempt to change the programming of the transmission. It has taken VW a LONG time to get all the programming dialed in on this transmission and it would reportedly be an extremely daunting task to try and manipulate it successfully. Then, even if you did find ways around the built in protective measures, the transmission mechanicals are only designed to handle 240 lb-ft. of torque with no easy way to upgrade internals. This means the transmisison will likely overheat and shut down till back within proper temperature ranges and/or it will simply frag to pieces. So for those that want to add more power to a car equipped with a DSG transmission, it sounds like you may want to forget it".
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  7. imported_S_Line
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    imported_S_Line Guest

    [Oct 12, 2005]
    So what the Torque of a 3.2 V6 DSG ?

    ITS 250 BHP and i can lay down the power INSTANLY in Drive

    Quicker than the Launch COntrol ! LOL ! Option.

    If there is no tollerance (30%) are these DSG gearboxes looking to self desctruct in 3 years ?

    Ive taken the DSG round the track and its Just Poetry In Motion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif i cant describe how good it is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    But will it last the 3 year warranty ?
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  8. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 12, 2005]
    I don't think Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda would be putting a gearbox on the market they they new would give up in just three years. It would ruin them financially and would also ruin their reputation. Even if they lasted the 3-year warranty period and then loads started to disintegrate the manuafacturer would still be liable.

    The current DSG has a torque limit of 350Nm. The 3.2 V6 produces the same torque - 320Nm as the 2.TDI. The V6 produces it at 2500-3000rpm whereas the TDI produces it at 1750-2500rpm.

    The 3.2 V6 produces 184kW but at 6300rpm. The 2.0TDI produces 103kW at 4000 rpm. Not so much Horse Power but much better fuel consumption. Each to his own. We all have the choice.

    But the point is, the 3.2 V6 puts no more torque through the DSG than the 2.0TDI and the limit is on the torque.
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  9. miketweed
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    miketweed Member

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    [Oct 12, 2005]
    Japper knows about this.......

    It appears that the DSG 'rating' is not much different to the manual box/clutch 'rating' for the purposes of manufacturing tolerances and offical specifications.

    Tune a manual and you takes your chances with the transmission, thats accepted, and as it has to withstand all sorts of bad driving / kangeroos / abuse it'll surely take a few more lb/ft.

    The DSG torque limit however is like New Labour, always keeping an eye on things then stepping in to spoil the fun just when you don't want it to. Thus making tuning over its software 'limits' pointless as it will limit the engine output. Doubtless it could take more than its preset limit, as people do with manual boxes.......but it just won't let you (yet)
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  10. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    Tune a manual and you takes your chances with the transmission, thats accepted, and as it has to withstand all sorts of bad driving / kangeroos / abuse it'll surely take a few more lb/ft.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    With a manual box,chances are the first thing that will go is the clutch.
    A relatively simple repair.
    I bet replacing the clutch (clutches) in the DSG is a friggin nightmare.
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  11. Boyakasha
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    Boyakasha Member

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    [Oct 13, 2005]

    So it looks like no modding for this then, I guess I should have done my homework before I bought the car. But as I have had no knowledge of Audis prior to my new car I wasn't aware of the DSG limitations.

    Funny thing is on my old car standard torque was about 250 and you could run up to 350 with no problems to the gear box/clutch so there was a good tolerance level.

    As it's been said before, big brother is getting smarter so now they are limiting what goes through the box electronically. As much as I love the DSG not sure if I would go for it again due to this limiting factor.
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  12. mikep
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    mikep Member

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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    s'funny when I was running the Steinbauer box on my DSG we had it at 176bhp and 305lb ft on the rollers with no problems at all. Ran like a dream.

    Revo are estimating about 320lb ft with specific code for the DSG gearbox.
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  13. Boyakasha
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    Boyakasha Member

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    [Oct 13, 2005]

    Mike, looks like I'll have to have a chat with you once I've put some miles on the car /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/woohoo.gif
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  14. mikep
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    mikep Member

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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    No worries!
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  15. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    To be honest, when my car passes it's anniversay i won't even flinch about sticking the revo code on it. It'll be switchable, so if I do destroy the clutch/gearbox/engine/world i'll just back the code aout and say 'Oi, Audi, Vorprung dirch Fix mein frikkiien motoeur!!'
    #14
  16. d3fy
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    d3fy Active Member

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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    So there is no history on the ECU? No date on when the BIOS was flashed?
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  17. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    Nope, not that your average Audi tech can see anyway. the most they can see is an increment of 1 each time it's done, which could quite feasibly have been done by Audi.
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  18. mikep
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    mikep Member

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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    That's the key to the new REVO code, the counter doesn't get updated!
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  19. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    There was a post on this sometime ago with regards to a R32 with the HPA twin turbo mod. The american tuning arm did this for VW to test the box to it's limits. 550BHP and a shed load of torque. Apparently VW tested it hard over 60,000kms or so with no problems. The feedback was that the torque limit of 350nm is an 'artificial' limit imposed by the ECM ( Gearbox ECU ).

    Yes the clutches in the DSG are smaller than that of the manual box, but they are wet clutches not dry plate so it is conceivable that the above is indeed true.

    The problem is that DSG is new and so nobody has enough experience as yet. The new 170TDI comes out soon, so what torque is this going to pump out !
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  20. miketweed
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    [Oct 13, 2005]
    Exactly, its not an exact on-the-limit-of-failure figure.

    Just what some engineer thought would be a good level to ensure hi reliability etc.

    MikeP.......

    My brother builds race cars see one here with sponsorship from REVO, and during RR sessions he says they haven't noticed any DSG imposed torque limits.

    I'm waiting to book mine in for a pre-release code on my 2.0T FSI DSG. Apparently they've got a steady 280ish BHP from their Golf5 GTI.
    #19
  21. mikep
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    mikep Member

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    [Oct 14, 2005]
    Mike

    Mitchell thinks that 330lb ft from the 2.0TDi is an easily achieved figure with the DSG gearbox, can't wait!

    I have a set of RR figures showing 260 and about 300lb ft from the 2.0Tfsi engine in the early part of the development programme, so 280bhp is no surprise. Should be a blast!
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  22. beaker
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    [Oct 14, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    The new 170TDI comes out soon, so what torque is this going to pump out !

    [/ QUOTE ]


    This is surely the most telling factor that everything will be OK with the DSG. The 170 TDI will just be Audi's tuned version of the current TDI, complete with a load of testing to ensure reliability.

    Mike P, will all the Revo dealers be ready for this upgrade from next year? The latest dates I have heard is November but I'd rather wait till March anyway what with Christmas looming. Also I don't think I'd get much out of it in the ice and snow.

    Think my nearest place is inverness but I could be wrong.
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  23. mikep
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    mikep Member

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    [Oct 14, 2005]
    The dealers have been told November for the release of the 2.0Tdi and TFsi software.
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  24. beaker
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    [Oct 14, 2005]
    Does this TDI release include the DSG or is it a different remap with a later release date?
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  25. tinka
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    tinka Guest

    [Oct 14, 2005]
    it'll be intereting to know if the gearbox for the 170ps tdi is the same,or an uprated one,such as different clutches or a modified software program,

    im sure over time the bofins at the diferent tuning houses will come up with a solution to the dsg,s limitations on torque,i hope.
    #24
  26. mikep
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    mikep Member

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    [Oct 14, 2005]
    The software releases will be for manual and DSG as they're different ecu codes.
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