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'Bolt-on' turbo upgrades.. and stock internals..

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by gadgey, May 9, 2006.

  1. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 9, 2006]
    Couple of questions about tubbies..

    What direct bolt-on kits are available for the S3. ATP's site suggests a fair few options for FWD.

    I assume their is a direct bolt on kit available to retain the exisiting inlet pipework & exhaust downpipe ala Eliminator style kits for AWD?

    The stock internals - the rods & pistons are OK to accept this kind of abuse? - Are there examples on the forum of failures due to this much power (350+) I guess the maf becomes a failure point like other turbo cars...

    Is there a kit including suitable remap or is standalone required.. sorry so many questions.. started modding the car before I buy it. lol

    Can the stock ECU be re-mapped (on all S3's) or standalone needed? (consideration in addiiton to the price of the turbo kit I guess)

    What size are the stock injectors and what duty cycle will they / can they accomodate 350+bhp?

    Lots of questions.. I'd love to see example cars running similar and full spec lists if possible

    I'm more an engine guy than looks myself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Hope I find a car soon...
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  3. HTC
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    HTC Active Member

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    [May 9, 2006]
    Like you say, the ATP eliminator range is the only bolt on kit that retains stock downpipe etc. The turbo inlet has been a bit of an issue for K03 based cars but I don't think there is a prob for K04 cars as the turbo sits a bit higher to clear the gear linkage (don't quote me tho).

    As for stock internals, its not power that kills the rods, specifically gudeon pins), it torque that you need to watch out for. I've seen cars fail with less than 350bhp that has massive torque/boost spikes at low rev/high load situations. As long as the tuner knows his stuff and its mapped well, you should be okay.

    No need to go standalone. Stock ECU will be fine for remapping.

    The stock S3 injectors prob won't be up to suppling enough fuel for 350bhp. I'd consider larger items. Can't remember the exact cc off the top of me head. Others will let you know on that one. USRT make some nice injectors that keep the stock "V" spray pattern so they hit the valve properly. Some "green tops" have the wrong spray pattern which can cause bad starting and idling issues.
    #2
  4. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [May 9, 2006]
    well my A3 is currently at 76800, and has been pushing 320bhp for 13000miles/21months and not had anything go as a result of power. I've replaced a MAF but would have probably gone anyway! Im using Bosch 440cc injectors, which should be fine for the 350bhp mark, but would prob best to go bigger upwards of that.

    As said the stock ECU does not need to be replaced...All works fine once remapped!

    Rich
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  5. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 9, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Like you say, the ATP eliminator range is the only bolt on kit that retains stock downpipe etc. The turbo inlet has been a bit of an issue for K03 based cars but I don't think there is a prob for K04 cars as the turbo sits a bit higher to clear the gear linkage (don't quote me tho).

    As for stock internals, its not power that kills the rods, specifically gudeon pins), it torque that you need to watch out for. I've seen cars fail with less than 350bhp that has massive torque/boost spikes at low rev/high load situations. As long as the tuner knows his stuff and its mapped well, you should be okay.

    No need to go standalone. Stock ECU will be fine for remapping.

    The stock S3 injectors prob won't be up to suppling enough fuel for 350bhp. I'd consider larger items. Can't remember the exact cc off the top of me head. Others will let you know on that one. USRT make some nice injectors that keep the stock "V" spray pattern so they hit the valve properly. Some "green tops" have the wrong spray pattern which can cause bad starting and idling issues.

    [/ QUOTE ] Cheers, I just don't want the added expense of the bottom end rebuild (How much would that be out & in with new water pump & belts? Anyway..?)

    Ok so the stock ECU (all models?) is mappable - so no need for standalone - is there an off the shelf chip / kit including ECU with these kits for UK fuel ala 97/98 ron? or is it simply a case of fitting the turbo and finding a good tuner to re-do the map. The pre-facelift models are soldered in eproms is this correct?! does this have any bearing on who would map the car after the turbo was fitted?

    Last thing.. larger injectors.. ditch the 4 bar FPR and go with 3 bar / variable FPR?
    What is your spec list btw?

    Thanks again - sorry so many q's.. !
    #4
  6. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 9, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    well my A3 is currently at 76800, and has been pushing 320bhp for 13000miles/21months and not had anything go as a result of power. I've replaced a MAF but would have probably gone anyway! Im using Bosch 440cc injectors, which should be fine for the 350bhp mark, but would prob best to go bigger upwards of that.

    As said the stock ECU does not need to be replaced...All works fine once remapped!

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]I see, the IHI is around 4k fitted is it not? I can deliver an ATP item for considerably less from the US it would seem.. granted a UK side remap would be needed.

    Any thoughts on the GT2871R as an option on stock internals?
    #5
  7. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [May 10, 2006]
    You could, but you have to bare in mind that anything from europe and the US is based on LHD cars, and most of the time, are not suitable for RHD cars unfortunately.

    To make the most of a 2871R i would change the rods as a minimum! But while its in pieces, you may aswell change the pistons too! Not actually that much of a job. Just pull the head, drop the sump and away you go. Could be easily be done in a day.

    i'd use an adjustable FPR with the greens.

    Rich
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  8. HTC
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    HTC Active Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    There are few seat guys up north running eliminators that have just been fitted in the last few weeks. Star performance are very much involved with this kit if you need a supplier.

    Because they use the stock downpipe, RHD/LHD issues don't seem to be a problem. Also uk cars don't have a brake servo and M/C to get in the way of the inlet which tends to be the critical area in these early days of the kit.

    Its all about the gear linkage at the moment. But as I said before I'm not sure if its a prob on the S3 due to the slightly higher fitment in the engine bay.

    UK customers are in a much better position with regards to software also. We are spoilt for choice to be honest. With the likes of AMD, Jabbasport, MRC, Star Performance and Custom Code all able to do a good job at mapping. The US guys don't have this luxury so it seems.

    I've been researching this kit also and I'm waiting on a few results from people before taking the plunge etc.

    I would visit Vw Vortex and do a search on the turbos you are interested in. There is alot of info on custom kits and engine characteristics.
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  9. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    You could, but you have to bare in mind that anything from europe and the US is based on LHD cars, and most of the time, are not suitable for RHD cars unfortunately.

    To make the most of a 2871R i would change the rods as a minimum! But while its in pieces, you may aswell change the pistons too! Not actually that much of a job. Just pull the head, drop the sump and away you go. Could be easily be done in a day.

    i'd use an adjustable FPR with the greens.

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]Ok, can you provide ball park price (pm if you preffer) for fitting rods & pistons... ?) Given their may be other parts required - but ballpark... ?
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  10. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    There are few seat guys up north running eliminators that have just been fitted in the last few weeks. Star performance are very much involved with this kit if you need a supplier.

    Because they use the stock downpipe, RHD/LHD issues don't seem to be a problem. Also uk cars don't have a brake servo and M/C to get in the way of the inlet which tends to be the critical area in these early days of the kit.

    Its all about the gear linkage at the moment. But as I said before I'm not sure if its a prob on the S3 due to the slightly higher fitment in the engine bay.

    UK customers are in a much better position with regards to software also. We are spoilt for choice to be honest. With the likes of AMD, Jabbasport, MRC, Star Performance and Custom Code all able to do a good job at mapping. The US guys don't have this luxury so it seems.

    I've been researching this kit also and I'm waiting on a few results from people before taking the plunge etc.

    I would visit Vw Vortex and do a search on the turbos you are interested in. There is alot of info on custom kits and engine characteristics.

    [/ QUOTE ]Sure, will do. Tell me what prices are these eiliminators... fitted?
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  11. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [May 10, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    You could, but you have to bare in mind that anything from europe and the US is based on LHD cars, and most of the time, are not suitable for RHD cars unfortunately.

    To make the most of a 2871R i would change the rods as a minimum! But while its in pieces, you may aswell change the pistons too! Not actually that much of a job. Just pull the head, drop the sump and away you go. Could be easily be done in a day.

    i'd use an adjustable FPR with the greens.

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]Ok, can you provide ball park price (pm if you preffer) for fitting rods & pistons... ?) Given their may be other parts required - but ballpark... ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well i reckon about £2500... You can knock off a £1k if you did it yourself (if competent!)
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  12. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    s3 pistons are good for 400+,Rods need changing for any serious abuse.
    Valves are also a major concern.
    360bhp for over a 1 1/2 years.
    #11
  13. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    You could, but you have to bare in mind that anything from europe and the US is based on LHD cars, and most of the time, are not suitable for RHD cars unfortunately.

    To make the most of a 2871R i would change the rods as a minimum! But while its in pieces, you may aswell change the pistons too! Not actually that much of a job. Just pull the head, drop the sump and away you go. Could be easily be done in a day.

    i'd use an adjustable FPR with the greens.

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]Ok, can you provide ball park price (pm if you preffer) for fitting rods & pistons... ?) Given their may be other parts required - but ballpark... ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well i reckon about £2500... You can knock off a £1k if you did it yourself (if competent!)

    [/ QUOTE ]So that is £1,500 for rods & pistons - correct?
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  14. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    s3 pistons are good for 400+,Rods need changing for any serious abuse.
    Valves are also a major concern.
    360bhp for over a 1 1/2 years.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Have you opted for stonger valve springs, different valves & rods?

    Can you tell me your spec for 360 @ the fly? Any graphs

    Thanks

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #13
  15. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    I was running 360bhp on a standard engine,now aiming for 400bhp with rods ,valves,ported head etc.

    standard springs ,one peice stainless inlet and inconel exhaust valves,pauter rods.
    #14
  16. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I was running 360bhp on a standard engine,now aiming for 400bhp with rods ,valves,ported head etc.

    standard springs ,one peice stainless inlet and inconel exhaust valves,pauter rods.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I see, the extra 40bhp is going to cost a few quid then.. what turbo are you running?
    #15
  17. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    ihi vf34/p20 ,new turbo is top secret spec,could go larger but will be too laggy,i know of a 1.8 running 480bhp but it's more of a drag monster.
    A friend will have his 500bhp a3 up and running soon ,2.0 20v.
    #16
  18. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    ihi vf34/p20 ,new turbo is top secret spec,could go larger but will be too laggy,i know of a 1.8 running 480bhp but it's more of a drag monster.
    A friend will have his 500bhp a3 up and running soon ,2.0 20v.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Open cheque book then! I'll be happy with a nice powerband around 350bhp - most probably 2871r.
    #17
  19. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    350bhp is fairly easy on s3 engine ,change turbo with associated hardware. 2871r will do 350bhp but it WILL be laggy.Oh and don't even dream of running it on a standard manifold.
    #18
  20. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    [May 10, 2006]
    Ryan, isn't the GT2871R suppose to be the 400bhp one, and the GTRS is the 350bhp one?

    I'm looking to get one fitted later this year, probably the GTRS as I'm only looking to get 320-350ish.
    #19
  21. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    [May 10, 2006]
    I think Dialynx do a manifold for the 1.8t. Anyone know what turbo they use ?

    Chris.
    #20
  22. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [May 11, 2006]
    dialynx and jabba designed the ihi manifold that i have.

    gt2871r would not do 400bhp and it is very laggy ,there was one at jabba.

    gt28rs .64 housing should do 320bhp,not bad although there are better options
    #21
  23. nervus
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    nervus Well-Known Member

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    [May 11, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    ihi vf34/p20 ,new turbo is top secret spec,could go larger but will be too laggy,i know of a 1.8 running 480bhp but it's more of a drag monster.
    A friend will have his 500bhp a3 up and running soon ,2.0 20v.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Why top secret Ryan??? Im just too nosey i guess.
    #22
  24. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [May 11, 2006]
    Other tuners may read this board,i know andy didn't give the full spec of his gt3071r hybrid.
    #23
  25. gadgey
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    gadgey New Member

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    [May 11, 2006]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Other tuners may read this board,i know andy didn't give the full spec of his gt3071r hybrid.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    My mates letting his 76r go soon....
    #24

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