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big brakes

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by peteA3tdi, Jun 22, 2004.

  1. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jun 23, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    chucky said:
    You think the Brembo GT's is fine for road and just enough for a chipped S3. I'm thinking of getting porsche ones but as you said the price is hell of a lot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    In my experience, the Brembo kit is way more able than any chipped S3 will ever need them to be on the public road.
    I have never faded mine...the feel of the pads is superb and tha action very linear.

    Why spend more?

    As to whether the Porsche derived set up will be better on the track? Probably.
    But is that down to the choice of Porsche's pad? Probably.

    To be honest, I used to run Forge Motorsport grooved standard discs and EBC greenstuff pads on my chipped S3, and never found them to be a problem!
    I have no doubt that they would have suffered on the track though...


    [ QUOTE ]

    is there a lot of difference from the standard S3 brake system then the brembo GT.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes.
    The Brembos are superb and offer not only better stopping, but better feel and more linear application too.


    [ QUOTE ]

    Also are the standard S3 calipers 4 pot?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    No, sliding calliper single pot.
    #41
  2. garethj
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    garethj Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    I think you'll find the discs are cheaper to replace with a floating set-up.
    #42
  3. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    garethj said:
    I think you'll find the discs are cheaper to replace with a floating set-up.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe..
    But there again...seperate rotors made in smaller numbers will not be cheap.
    Factor in new high-tensile mounting bolts and the labour costs and I'll still bet single piece discs will be cheaper.

    #43
  4. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    Just because a calliper has more pots, it doesn't make it better. More pots equal more to corrode up, more to move etc and can lead to master cylinder compatibility problems.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed... You have to stay within the limits of the master cylinder or they will feel aweful, and more importantly not provide enogh pressure... So you could have what SHOULD be better brakes (arguably) performing worse. Not good.

    [ QUOTE ]

    If the Brembo 4 pot calliper used in the Brembo kit is good enough for a Ferarri F40, it's damn well good enough for a poxy Audi.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ah but also conside that the S3 is 300kg heavier than the F40 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif

    [ QUOTE ]

    Discs are consumable items.
    Floating discs are not appreciably better than solid discs when used in the correct application under correctly torqued wheels etc.
    Yes, they can save a few lbs...but to those who are concerned about this: look at your wheel weights first!


    [/ QUOTE ] I agree with what your saying here about wheel weights, and as you are aware, it IS something i have been looking at recently. Just for some info, my ECS Stage 2v2 kit is 27% lighter than the stock 288mm setup. On an S3, the saving is going to be even greater.

    [ QUOTE ]

    Most expensive is not always best.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Most definately!

    [ QUOTE ]

    Biggest diameter is not always best...you need to look at swept area, leverage, total rotating mass, unsprung weight, pad compound, brake cooling availability etc

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Dont suppose you happen to have a pad diagram for the Brembos do you? with the dimanesions .etc!?

    [ QUOTE ]

    With brakes...reputation is EVERYTHING. It's the only thing between you and death.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [ QUOTE ]
    Would you be happy spending £1800 on a set up, only to have to replace the discs after a year or so, and at this point you find out there's a month wait on the discs and they are £200 each?
    You'd probably be miffed.
    Especially if you found out the discs for the cheaper kit (bought for well under £1000) could be obtained more quickly, more cheaply and if you are honest, there was no difference in the braking ability.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ECS (for example) dont cost anywhere near that much for replacements, and we can get them within 2 working days.


    Rich

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #44
  5. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    Oh and more thing to also consider... rear brakes...which are often overlooked.

    Last night, i went out in a customers Golf Anni. He has the Stage 2v2 kit on the front, same as me, but he has also fitted the Stage1 rear kit. This kit converts the 256mm rear discs to 308mm, retaining the stock calliper/pads .etc. The difference is simply amazing! The increased bit is very noticeable! definately a worthwhile upgrade! Something i shall definately be doing on this car if i keep it or on the next.

    Rich
    #45
  6. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    I'm getting confused.

    I'm after the Brembo GT Kit , so from the above if i read right the amd brembo gt kit isn't really the brembo gt kit but the same as the leon cupra one. Which has 328 x 28 discs and brembo fast pads.

    Rich, so yours are different to these but still the brembo gt kit.. What size are the discs of the ones you sell and what differs. As its the same price.

    Also found another forum on here which Scott started about a place called Stars? anyone know this VAG tuning place?

    I need to get some uprates brakes before i'm off to germany in a few weeks time.
    #46
  7. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    chucky said:
    I'm getting confused.

    I'm after the Brembo GT Kit , so from the above if i read right the amd brembo gt kit isn't really the brembo gt kit but the same as the leon cupra one. Which has 328 x 28 discs and brembo fast pads.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Correct

    [ QUOTE ]

    Rich, so yours are different to these but still the brembo gt kit.. What size are the discs of the ones you sell and what differs. As its the same price.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Incorrect. Mine arent the Brembo GT kit. Mine are ECS Stage 2v2. Uses a Porsche Boxster S monobloc 4 pot calliper, with 332mm dics on alloy hat.

    [ QUOTE ]

    Also found another forum on here which Scott started about a place called Stars? anyone know this VAG tuning place?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Star performance - www.starperformance.co.uk - Well know VAG tuner in Scotland.

    Rich
    #47
  8. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    I don't need them fitted.

    Star performance don't do brembo's well on there site there is nothing about them. :O(.

    Rich i was on about the jbr site the brembo's on there. i know you have different brakes mate and they do look phat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #48
  9. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    jayfrst said:
    Suppied Rich, The missus keeps complaining about the A3 standard calipers etc, it could do with improving...

    Jason

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can do you the brembos for £750+vat. Delivery will be a few ££ on top of this price.

    Rich
    #49
  10. jayfrts
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    jayfrts bouncing off the limiter!!!!

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    Are you wanting them fitted aswell? or simply just supplied?

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Who were you asking Rich?
    #50
  11. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    chucky said:
    I don't need them fitted.

    Star performance don't do brembo's well on there site there is nothing about them. :O(.

    Rich i was on about the jbr site the brembo's on there. i know you have different brakes mate and they do look phat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ah OK i catch you. Right, bcasically, the AmD kit ISNT the GT kit. All arguements aside as why the ACTUAL GT is better, the fact still remains that theres a bit of misleading going on. The kit on the JBR site IS the same as the kit that AmD sell as the GT kit, but is just named correctly... It is a good kit, and im not saying its bad or anything (cos its a million times better than the standard setup!) i just think people should be fully aware of WHAT they are buying and not lead to believe they have got something that in fact they have not.

    Rich
    #51
  12. jayfrts
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    jayfrts bouncing off the limiter!!!!

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    Sounds stupid i know, but this price is just calipers....
    #52
  13. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    Rich , How about a group buy.

    I'm sure even with this thread loads of people will be interested in getting the brembo gt kit.

    If 5 people wanted it will you give it to us for £700inc VAT.

    Chuck
    #53
  14. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    chucky said:
    Rich , How about a group buy.

    I'm sure even with this thread loads of people will be interested in getting the brembo gt kit.

    If 5 people wanted it will you give it to us for £700inc VAT.

    Chuck

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would if i could! We get a terrible rate on the brembo's which makes it impossible to do a groupbuy and make any profit /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    Rich
    #54
  15. jimboA3
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    jimboA3 Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    how much is the kit you have on yours rich ? Supply only.
    #55
  16. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    jimboA3 said:
    how much is the kit you have on yours rich ? Supply only.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    £1080+vat
    #56
  17. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    rich I'll get back to you i defeintly need my brakes sorted out in the next week. so might get them off you.
    cheers for all your comments
    #57
  18. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    chucky said:
    Rich , How about a group buy.

    I'm sure even with this thread loads of people will be interested in getting the brembo gt kit.

    If 5 people wanted it will you give it to us for £700inc VAT.

    Chuck

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would if i could! We get a terrible rate on the brembo's which makes it impossible to do a groupbuy and make any profit /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Rich

    We don't care if you make a profit... we just want uprated brakes for as cheap of possible! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
    #58
  19. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Imola S3 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    chucky said:
    Rich , How about a group buy.

    I'm sure even with this thread loads of people will be interested in getting the brembo gt kit.

    If 5 people wanted it will you give it to us for £700inc VAT.

    Chuck

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would if i could! We get a terrible rate on the brembo's which makes it impossible to do a groupbuy and make any profit /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Rich

    We don't care if you make a profit... we just want uprated brakes for as cheap of possible! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    hahahaha /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
    #59
  20. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:

    Ah but also conside that the S3 is 300kg heavier than the F40 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Valid points Rich...

    But we must remember that a brake is only transferring energy...and the momentun of a car has to be dissipated through the brakes...and although the F40 may well weigh 300Kgs less than an S3...an S3 can't do over 190MPH.
    Regardless how much power the optimistic dyno plot shows!

    Whilst I agree that a Porsche derived kit may have the advantage over the cheaper Brembo kit with it's road pads...correctly chosen pads fitted to the Brembo kit which are better for trackdays, will reduce the advantage - if one exists...and still leave you with change in your pocket.
    #60
  21. MarkS3
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    MarkS3 Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    OK i have just picked up all the pieces of my exploding head!!! "all" i want is better brakes to go under my standard wheels without spacers, if they look good too that is a bonus, i don't do track days but the roads here are hard on the brakes
    #61
  22. peteA3tdi
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    peteA3tdi Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    what about a groupbuy on the Porsche kit?
    #62
  23. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    some might even say that the big red 993 brakes are overkill as the fronts need to be balanced with the rears too.. Only stoptech match their upgraded callipers to work with OEM rear callipers..
    #63
  24. peteA3tdi
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    peteA3tdi Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Lees3 said:
    some might even say that the big red 993 brakes are overkill as the fronts need to be balanced with the rears too.. Only stoptech match their upgraded callipers to work with OEM rear callipers..

    [/ QUOTE ]

    get the rears as well only 2k front and back!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #64
  25. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Lees3 said:
    some might even say that the big red 993 brakes are overkill as the fronts need to be balanced with the rears too

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Most certainly! I have said that it is a good idea to upgrade the rears too! They are a VERY good setup and balances it up nicely. I think many would be surprised how much difference just fitting bigger discs on the back makes!

    Rich
    #65
  26. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    [Jun 24, 2004]
    Guys,

    Just need a quick view about the follow.

    The SEat Cupra R brembo calipers, diccs would they go straight on a Audi S3? and I guess these would be a huge improvement then the standard ones.

    also is there much difference between the seata cupra R brembo kit then the brembo gt kit. I mean will you notice the difference on the road.

    Another question is. when i change my fronts to brmebos. Can I move my front standard S3 discs to the back as these are bigger to improve braking, just a thought (I assume the calipers are the same at the backs as the front)
    #66
  27. jojo
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    jojo Looking for Boost! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    Yes they will.
    #67
  28. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    chucky said:
    Guys,

    Just need a quick view about the follow.

    The SEat Cupra R brembo calipers, diccs would they go straight on a Audi S3? and I guess these would be a huge improvement then the standard ones.

    also is there much difference between the seata cupra R brembo kit then the brembo gt kit. I mean will you notice the difference on the road.

    Another question is. when i change my fronts to brmebos. Can I move my front standard S3 discs to the back as these are bigger to improve braking, just a thought (I assume the calipers are the same at the backs as the front)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Chucky,

    You cant move the fronts to the back. Firstly there would be no hand brake mechanism and secondly you would need to manufacture a bracket.

    The beswt tthing for the rears is to use a bigger disc like the ECS stage 1 rears. Tarox also do a similar kit but is considerably more expensive for the same things basically.

    Rich
    #68
  29. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    chucky said:
    The SEat Cupra R brembo calipers, diccs would they go straight on a Audi S3? and I guess these would be a huge improvement then the standard ones.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes..
    Reasonably cheap, they work well and you can get spares at any local dealer.
    Bargain.
    All the brakes you'll ever need on the road - chipped or un-chipped.



    [ QUOTE ]

    also is there much difference between the seata cupra R brembo kit then the brembo gt kit. I mean will you notice the difference on the road.
    [ QUOTE ]


    I believe the GT Kit proper uses 2pc rotors.

    As for whether you'll feel a difference... No. You'll not. Not if you are honest.

    Even with the SEAT Bermbo kit the limit to braking is your tyres, suspension set up and size of your balls!
    Putting 'bigger' brakes on doesn't mean better brakes...there are so many other factors to consider.
    I personally am more than happy to use a master cylinder / calliper piston ratio that's been developed by the manufacturer.

    Save yourself the extra cash and put it towards doing somethying else...like making the pig of an S3 handle propely!





    [/ QUOTE ]
    Another question is. when i change my fronts to brmebos. Can I move my front standard S3 discs to the back as these are bigger to improve braking, just a thought (I assume the calipers are the same at the backs as the front)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No.
    Well, not easily anyway.

    Front callipers are far too big for rear brakes and you need the facility the rear handbrake - a facility the rear callipers have, but the fronts don't.

    Technically, you could fabricate a bracket to move the rear calliper outward and use the front disc, or even mount both the old front calliper and original rear calliper on the rear, over the original rear disc...but you have to aske yourself why?

    You will be adding FAR too much exrea weight whick will kill the mediorcr handling the car already has.

    You will have far too much rear brake...making the chassis unstable and liable to spin. Not good.



    Personally I think people need to go off and drive their car and decide if they need more rear brake.
    I have to dissagree with Rich that you need more rear brake..I have never driven a car yet on the limit that I couldn't be done with a bit LESS rear brake...to stop the tail wagging.
    Just ask DougRS2 who was following me on the last A-S.net Scottish run...he was subjected to a fine display of tail wagging...and believe me, this is not a good thing!

    The front brakes do 80-90% of the work...why de-stabilise an already not-great handling car by adding more rear brake?

    As an example:
    Go and look at anyone who does trackdays with any serious preperation...or people that race. I'll bet their rear brake pad compound is less aggressive than the front. Mine is, and always has been. Hell, on the XR2s we used to cut away half the rear brake shoes to reduce the rear brake!
    You can't left foot brake through corners or trail brake progressively with too muchrear brake. It's dangerous.

    For the vast majority of drivers, uprating front brakes I can understand.
    For the vast majority of drivers, uprating rears...that's purely for show. Sad, but true.



    #69
  30. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    Interesting graph...
    But one, which as usual, highlights exactly what the manufacturer wants it to!

    That graph is for a car with ABS disabled.

    On a car with ABS active, the resultant pulsing through the rear wheels as they are over-braking and losing grip, is the major contributing factor is unsettling the car.

    In the case of the graph, with too much rear brake, the car could skid and spin from the rear.

    In a similar set up with ABS active I'd expect the car to fishtail about as the ABS ECU brakes and releases the rear wheels...this, I can only presume, is the effect I've experienced.

    Notice also that adding the rear brake upgrade to the Fronts only, did NOT reduce the stopping distance...which once again highlights to me that the front is doing most of the work and the rear upgrade is expensive vehicular jewelry!
    #70
  31. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    Rich,

    But aren't the standard s3 font discs bigger then the back. The sure do look bigger /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. So when i replace my front discs with brembo's why can't i move the front's to the backs.
    #71
  32. 4SilverRings
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    4SilverRings Member

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    So with all of the above in mind, what's people's thoughts on keeping the standard calipers and replacing the pads with EBC greenstuff pads and turbo disk all round?
    #72
  33. peteA3tdi
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    peteA3tdi Member

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    so ess three as the tuning god you say the best kit for a S3 is the brembo junior gt kit with 1 part discs and standard rear set up?
    ps i'am not taking the pi## just checking
    ps2 is anyone up for a group buy
    #73
  34. garethj
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    garethj Member

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    Ess I think you'll find the main reason for the Porsche Boxters advantage over your S3 is weight it is at least 100kg lighter. They are pretty fast powerful cars with great weight distribution but your car has more power and torque through the range. So you should have been able to catch him on the straights if it weren't for the equivalent of an extra (quite big) passenger slowing you down.
    #74
  35. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    [Jun 25, 2004]
    Guys, I meant moving my standard 312mm front discs to the back. leave the orignal back calipers etc.
    Rich you were saying you had customers notice the improvement with 308mm i'm sure 312mm would fit.
    #75
  36. cyuen
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    cyuen Member

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    [Jun 27, 2004]
    yeh i drove a Boxter S before, couldn't believe how nice the thing was, amazing. Did hear mix reviews as to how the Boxter handles on track, some ppl said the Boxter is especially set up for fast road applciation. Check out the strength of the car, if you think the S3 is strong, the Boxter its about 1.5-2 times that!

    I wanted one but too $$
    #76
  37. peteA3tdi
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    peteA3tdi Member

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    [Jun 30, 2004]
    well thanks for all your input i have now ordered some should get them soon i hope /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #77
  38. ELIASGK74
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    ELIASGK74 Member

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    [Jun 30, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    peteTDI said:
    well thanks for all your input i have now ordered some should get them soon i hope /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    tell us about diameter and price
    #78
  39. peteA3tdi
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    peteA3tdi Member

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    [Jul 1, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    ELIAS S3 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    peteTDI said:
    well thanks for all your input i have now ordered some should get them soon i hope /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    tell us about diameter and price

    [/ QUOTE ]

    i have gone for broke, fronts 332mm with boxster calipers (black) and 308mm for the rear, ordered from rich with a good price, i should get them soon ,will fit fronts first bed them in then fit the rears when they are all bedded in will post a report ,lets hope the car behind me can stop /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
    #79

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