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Been thinking for a while about methanol fuel mixtures

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by StaceyS3, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 2, 2013]
    Have been thinking for a while about mixing methanol with petrol in the fuel tank at a set mixture say 10% meth 90% petrol am after opinions thoughts etc especially the badger as he'll be mapping

    We all know the gains to be had with regards to timing advance with WMi but also it's not advisable to tune for it as only takes a component failure or blockage on your WMi system and engine will det and get nuked....so have been thinking what if you could have the extra timing advance all the time knowing that the meth will be there the whole time your fuel systems running?

    Thoughts are (this is where the badgers wisdom comes in as is above my head) can you also have different timing and possibly fueling maps as well as the boost maps? Thoughts would be to have 2/3 maps (if it all is possible) mapped with the desired meth mixture and the remaining on various boost levels for straight petrol?

    Hoping the gains will be pretty significant with obviously more timing and boost being able to run with lower egt levels obviously all making for a nice recipe for more power

    If we had ethanol and E85 regularly available over here I would be all over it like a bad rash as really want to help save the planet ;) Although as that's not readily available wondered if the meth petrol mix was an option?

    It would be easier now being less dependent on the car, it's not such an issue to on long journeys (mainly to car meets and track events) to carry some meth in the boot with a funnel and hose, then when comes to filling up just put say 5 litres of meth followed by 50 litres of petrol

    Only other thing is I haven't researched it at all so may be shot down instantly due to fuels not mixing and separating in the tank or something stupid but just thought I'd throw it out there? :)
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  3. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Nov 2, 2013]
    If you REALLY want my opinion chap, you have a monster spec that should be able to make 450bhp + on V-power without any meth at all.

    Having to pre mix or add to your tank sounds like a massive pain to me, and given the car should already be pretty insane, I'm not sure I'd want to compromise it's usability in the quest for a few more bhp, which in your case, will probably yeild less than 1%!

    I know I'm certainly thankful for having the option of low boost and no meth and knowing it's still running safe, because it's not always that easy to keep on top of meth all the time.
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  4. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 2, 2013]
    Yes, you can a 3 stage fuelling and 3 map timing..
    #3
  5. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 2, 2013]
    I think with ethanol in the petrol it rots lines very quickly so needs to be flushed frequently..
    #4
  6. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 2, 2013]
    If you had cruise control you could have fulling on cruise set, timing on cruise resume, and boost on brake/accel...
    #5
  7. IrishDave
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    IrishDave Active Member

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    [Nov 2, 2013]
    Funny you ask this. With the tuner yesterday and was only talking about this. Using a 10% methanol mix he gained an extra 50hp with no other mods after the build(Subaru Type RA fully built etc). It is something I am now looking into doing myself once all the other issues are sorted.
    Methanol is also very cheap and can be bought pretty easily.
    #6
  8. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Nov 2, 2013]
    Would a 10% mix really eat the lines that much?
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  9. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Nov 2, 2013]
    someone get an old piece of fuel line and leave it in a 10% solution and see what happens over time
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  10. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 3, 2013]
    I know a couple of guys who are using 10% meth with fuel over in ireland... They dont get 99Vpower easilt over there.. apparently.

    Re switchable ign maps... I personally dont subscribe to this..... It will already vary ign with the boost maps as the loads will alter.
    Switchable ign as well as boost maps would just shout disaster and user error to me. Not something I would want to offer personally.

    10% meth in the tank, I have done it. Not seen an adverse effect yet. (lupo test mule.. vpower +10% meth)
    #9
  11. IrishDave
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    IrishDave Active Member

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    [Nov 3, 2013]
    ^^ Yeah the best we get is 95ron and even that may be questionable sometimes.
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  12. Sam_
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    Sam_ Down under

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    [Nov 3, 2013]
    How true is that? I'm sure a few of the vortex lot run E85 on stock lines. I know it can be corrosive to some metals though.

    I can get E85 pretty easily here but obviously more flow required, so more trips to the servo.
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  13. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 3, 2013]
    To be fair I'm going what a guy I sold a hybrid told me , as he uses it and can't leave it mixture in the tank or lines when it's not racing as the lines rot. But I think the car is sat for long periods not being used so might be more the issue..
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  14. Jersey
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    Jersey Member

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    [Nov 3, 2013]
    Great thread!!

    Sorry to steal it a little, but i have the same issue as IrishDave. I only have 95ron in Jersey, i know this isn't ideal, therefore is adding methanol to the fuel a good idea? is there another good additive i can use, that will help with engine health and possibly power?
    My car is standard other than B5tip and possibly future stage 1 revo map. Its also a daily driver.

    cheers,

    Jordan
    #13
  15. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 3, 2013]
    Cheers for the replies and feedback guys :)

    I suppose it could be a risk having the different fueling/timing maps as could accidently switch and run the risk of destroying the engine but was just thinking it could be a way to gain more performance

    I would have thought the gains would of been quite substantial as theres very good gains to be had on E85 with people seeing >10% gains in power as well as people tuning for decent levels of wmi seeing generous increase in performance

    The adding of meth to the tank doesn't phase me to much of being an arse as could easily add 5 litres or so before filling from the red and have to top up the wmi tank pretty much as regular which doesn't stand as to much of a choir, it would have been more of an issue when was daily driving the car but as it now will be used more in the summer and in free time it wouldn't concern me as much

    I have read previously that the lines are "suposedly" rated for a reasonable level of ethanol due to other countries in the south of america have a higher ethanol content fuel? How much more corrosive meth is than ethanol i really dont know but when get some time will play with google a bit ;)

    Am only just throwing ideas out there as have thought about it for a while and if it makes the engine run more efficiently and extract more power for the given airflow just sounded like something to look into :)
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  16. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Nov 3, 2013]
    Not worth the risk but if you can get E85 then that would be better
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  17. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    Yeah did think that is probably the case just putting it out there and thinking out loud

    Why oh why haven't we got corn juice on tap :(
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  18. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    first thing to improve its performance is fix its issues... ditch those cams and get some which are proven to work..
    get the base motor in a happy place first dude
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  19. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    Yeah will do bill, decided am going to pull the engine apart for a bit of a health check and check clearances etc

    Just been thinking about things that's all

    Plans are IECVA1's (IEs lairy grind for people that don't know) cars looking like it will stay in full fat form as the foot has gone down :(

    Had been also looking at other blowers now it's not the daily and lags not so much a concern....fancy selling yours? They do it with the same compact B comp housing :p
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  20. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    You can buy nine lol
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  21. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    Mines only 1900cc
    and 200bhp more
    :)

    GT35 based unit.. Entry level turbo for me now - lol
    #20
  22. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    Haha think how well that would perform on a stroker ;)

    Had wished had gone for a GT35 framed turbo and a bigger comp housing once all the plans changed, as when I decided and bought the turbo it was destined to be underslung with the space provided in the K26 hybrid turbine housing on the 1825cc bottom end

    Have had a few searches saved on eBay for a while now including gt35 and hta in the titles :)
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  23. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    tuffty will be able to say when he's finished his build.
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  24. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    Yeah will be good to see how it performs on the .63ar?

    Danny highmans hta3582 looked pretty good on the .82ar on his stroker ;)

    Wonder if Arnold will do a mid sized turbine housing for the gt35 as would have thought that will be a nice sweet spot?
    #23
  25. IrishDave
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    IrishDave Active Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    If I were you I would do a little more research into the meth mix.
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  26. JaseS3
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    JaseS3 Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    I wouldn't dare try it but I would be interested to hear what a weak nitromethane mix would yield power wise in an S3 as I picked up some up from the local model shop years ago and ran a (very weak) mix in my old 4-stroke crosser which seemed to give it an extra kick (and some nice flames on backfire!). I wouldn't advise it obviously but maybe someone already tried it?
    Out of interest anyone know if nitromethane would be a step up or down from methanol?
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  27. IrishDave
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    IrishDave Active Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    Why wouldn't you try it. Would you use e85? If so there is not much difference between e85 and a 10% meth mix.
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  28. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    I like the idea peraonally.

    Stace, considered having your 30 wheel swapped for a 35 on your current chra? GTX3571, it would still match a normal GT3576 with its billet wheel, plus with it being smaller by 5mm and lighter, might spool better. Possibly and easier and cheaper option than a complete turbo swap, maybe, i dont know.
    Be unique anyway
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  29. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    He would need a new compressor housing as the wheel wouldn't fit the one he has now

    even if he fitted a 35 wheel then I don't think the exhaust turbine could get rid of the gasses produced by the 35 wheel and I'm sure Garrett would of tested that combo anyway
    #28
  30. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    It would retain his current comp side.
    And the 35 turbine in a 35 .63 housing would prob see the potential of the billet 71 compressor.
    I mean how many gtx3071s make the theoretical power they are capable of.

    I like the idea of changing mine to a 30 turbine making its a gtx3067, Al@pagparts backs the idea. Wonder what hed think about a gtx3571
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  31. JaseS3
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    JaseS3 Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    Irishdave I'd never heard of e85 before, Looks interesting. If I started playing with mixtures personally I think I'd be too tempted to keep tweeking the mix.. and not having a clue while doing it!
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  32. IrishDave
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    IrishDave Active Member

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    [Nov 4, 2013]
    Yeah e85 was a great fuel. It used to be available in certain petrol stations over here but it then dissapeared thanks to our retard government who decided to tax it out of the market.
    A few modifications had to be done such as larger injectors etc, but it was rated at 105ron, baisically it was race fuel you could buy in a petrol station and the performance improvement on turbocharged cars was impressive, my last car being an r32 gtr.
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  33. badger5
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    [Nov 5, 2013]
    larger turbine wheel wont make it spool faster
    its laggy enough with its existing wheel
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  34. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Nov 5, 2013]
    No ****
    #33
  35. Scullies
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    Scullies Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 5, 2013]
    I went for all the big stuff from the beginning. I figured that way, I should be happy and won't need to upgrade.
    Well until I find a 2.5 5 cylinder :)
    #34
  36. badger5
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    [Nov 5, 2013]
    is'nt that what you said tho karl?
    fit larger gt35 wheel.... as in turbine wheel....

    I have the benefit of having mapped these.........
    GTX just dont float my boat on any of them so far.. too laggy on all I have seen so far. Dissapointing. HTA equivalent tho.. So much better spool and power.

    In staceys motor example, there are other more pressing issues needed to help it realise its existing turbo and improve spool.. (cams)
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  37. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Nov 5, 2013]

    thats part of what i said yes.

    if you read it again my idea was fit one to his current comp wheel, and the spool i was talking about was regarding the 3571 combo Vs the normal GT35 combos that have been suggested i.e. 3576, 3582.


    My point being that his current billet wheel is very capable, from comp maps as capable as a 76mm, but due to its size and weight might be a good compromise between his current gtx3071, and the full fat gt35r.

    That was my post in its entirity.
    #36
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  38. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 5, 2013]
    Stacey: your TSR man will limit the size of comp cover from memory... bare that in mind.. Not sure how much more room there is
    It also surged on your current setup as I recall.
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  39. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Nov 5, 2013]
    Bill do you sell the HTA turbos?

    I would like to try the HTA GT3582 and do you know if a TO4E compressor housing will fit (AKA GT3076 Housing For people that don't know) as room is very tight in my bay
    #38
  40. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 5, 2013]
    Owen Developments is who I use
    #39
  41. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Nov 5, 2013]
    Just had a word with them now

    thanks bill
    #40

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