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BAM S3 full rebuild for Hybrid or BT

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by hoffmanvp3, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. Barks
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    Barks Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    #41
  2. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    K04-064. Its a no brainer.
    #42
  3. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Well the shopping list so far:
    KO4 stage 4 from Turbo Dynamics
    IE gun drilled rods icl ARP 2000 bolts
    OEM shells for crank main bearing and con rod main bearing
    ARP crank stud kit
    ARP head bolts
    Already got a FMIC
    OEM head gasket
    Dont know which Injectors to use yet??
    head will be P&P with SuperTech valve kit
    OEM piston rings
    Up grade clutch kit, but still deciding which to use. Also whether to go single or dual fly wheel due to mileage of gearbox it may die if i use a single mass fly wheel.
    Pipe Werx down pipe and sports cat
    Already have Miltek cat back.

    Think ive missed any thing?

    Cheers
    Shark custom remap
    #43
  4. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Seriously dude, dont waste your time on the 02X hybrids for 1.8ts.
    Theyre expensive for the power gains, theyre inconsistent, theyre often unreliable. I watched hybrid builds like a hawk for about a year weighing up options, in the end it just wasnt the best choice for the money.

    Now the tfsi turbos are doable you would be foolish to consider anything else aprt from BT which is another level expense and work wise. The bang for buck is like no other. You are talking half the cost of your linked turbo AND it includes a manifold (one piece)

    I do hope youve read prawns thread, it will change your mind. Also search the many hybrid builds and realise what theyre like.

    God if only Dane were still on here! He went through 3 hybrids in the hands of one of the best builders/tuners before he gave up and bought an rs4.
    #44
  5. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    why are the Hybrids bad Karl?
    thought id stick with the characteristics of the KO4 as they spoll up nice and quick compared to a BT.
    And a BT would generate more heat than a hybrid?
    Forgive my ignorence as i`m not a tuner, just a builder lol
    #45
  6. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Im talking about the tfsi turbo, its not a bt, its an oem blower, it spools as fast if not quicker (due to surge issues) than the hybrids for our fitment ko4s.
    From an 8p s3 or ed30 golf. You are looking at circa 5-600 pounds which includes the manifold. Yes there is a little more inginuity required and some custom parts, but Beachbuggy is working on those. I suggest you contact him for advise and also enquire about the tfsi turbo kit.
    #46
    phil miller likes this.
  7. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    If i was starting out again now id do a TFSI over Ko4, reason being the ko4 then a mani then DP it all adds up, my Rebuilt Ko4 (stock) and relentless mani stand me at around £500 for the same money you have a turbo that can give more power, to me its a no brainer
    #47
  8. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Would a 8P S3 manifold fit the 20v head?
    Ive PM beach buggy so will let you know what he says.
    Did find a LOBA hybrid KO4 on JBS site for the same price as the Turbo Dynamics stage 4 KO4.
    Theres too many choices lol
    #48
  9. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Iirc you have an adpator plate the mani bolts to the plate and the plate bolts to the head :)
    #49
  10. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Should of bought a RS4:keule:
    #50
  11. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Right.
    After much debating with myself and the missus as its our project over the winter i have come to a desion:yes:
    1.8T Big Turbo Base Kit | Power Upgrades
    Just hope it fits under the bonnet lol.
    Did allot of studying on the KO4 hybrid route and seems to generate too much EGT trying to get the boost up to justify the Hybrid route.
    Plus there is no replacement of displacement:yes: so with that rule using the same boost from a hybrid the BT will produce more power with less EGT keeping power consistent between runs.
    Better to make a BT work than a hybrid scream its tits off.
    As always your opinions are welcome.

    Cheers
    #51
  12. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    The thing is with ko4 hybrids is still the manifold, that has been the biggest stumbling block by far, there just isnt a reliable one...without spending silly money..
    #52
  13. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    L.A.G end.
    #53
  14. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Personally anything with a T25 internally gated hotside will struggle to make it past 380hp...

    <tuffty/>
    #54
  15. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2013]
    Well i`ll probably opting for the GT28 to reduce the lag.
    I cant be arsed with sourcing parts from all over the web.
    Just want a "KIT" that will do the job for a reasonable amount of mulla
    #55
  16. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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  17. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    I disagree Karl
    You site issues which are years ago... as if nothing has developed or improved - which is certainly not the case.

    Hybrid K04 vs K04-064 conversion is night and day different... One bolts on mechanically, the tfsi version needs a whole host of other parts edging it closer to a BT build cost than hybrid bolt on cost

    Set the expectations realistically in terms of what power is actually being sought, and build it accordingly...
    bolt on K04-02x, realistically in the realms of 300-330bhp level, and very dependant on supporting mods.

    Yes we know the tfsi k04-064 will flow more, its a "bigger turbo" as std.. lol It does require more work to fit and special parts to accommodate it. It can do a realistic comfortable 350bhp-370bhp range as std...

    There is still life in K04-02x hybrids
    #57
  18. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    If there was a high flow cast manifold which sold for £350 would that be deemed "silly money"?
    #58
  19. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    It starts adding up to silly money though.. £350 for manifold(JBS?) If so then pay someone to port it. Then for instance that TD turbo at £1400 inc vat. At that sort of money you might aswell just go TFSI.
    #59
  20. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    £350 manifold gets you a flowed,ported cast exhaust manifold... not jbs

    TD turbo is expensive if its £1400....
    BBT would'nt be that price would it
    #60
  21. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]

    Agree here.. I'm working on a few things and whilst I don't think they offer the power the tfsi affords the 1.8t I think done right they can be a very useful turbo...

    I've got a few things in the pipeline that hopefully will bring back some life to the k04 1.8t hybrid, it's all gone very quiet with these mainly as exhaust manifolds are a real stumbling block, and very few turbos are suitable to make a hybrid due to cracking ... But maybe we can make them more stable in performance by offering consistent products... That's the plan anyway...
    #61
  22. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Care to share your wisdom on the manifold so others can actually consider it?
    #62
  23. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Well that's the last time i drink and go on the forums:laugh:.
    I know your only trying to express your knowledge and help karl but I've reconsidered going BT and going hybrid.
    Now i may get slammed for doing this but then so be it. Its my Car, Not yours!
    Either the LOBA KO4 upgrade turbo or Turbo Dynamics stage 4 KO4, might go LOBO as i know some one who could give me a good deal.
    I've just purchased the Relentless V3 manifold and Down pipe combo but before you say it`ll crack, i`ll be doing a full MPI inspection on the welds and cracks will be ground out and beefed up then the flange skimmed as they always warp after welding.
    You may still say its **** but its cheap, especially the deal i got with the combo but its better than the stock cast manifold.
    440cc injectors, but that may change if Badger seems necessary.
    The idea of a BT is well and truly out of the question as i don't want diesels catching me off guard.
    Comments are welcome.........If there constructive:)
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
    #63
  24. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    No but Where?...:ninja:
    #64
  25. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    £/hp and reliability/£ are superior on the tfsi units.
    I just dont think the 1.8t hybrids are kicking out enough to make the ££££ worth it. As Bill said, youre looking at 300-330hp, when there is more and more stock turbo approaching and exceeding 300.

    The need for rods and the cost of the hybrid itself isnt worth it in m
    y eyes.
    perhaps, if a person has got every bolt on, and hovering aroumd 300 and just happens to have a built bottom end, its probably easy for that person to bolt a hybrid in and see a bit more power/torque. But the OP is starting from scratch, and has a clear power goal and budget
    #65
    Jason.s likes this.
  26. vroomtshh
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    vroomtshh Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    How do you know the above. 1 person is running it (over here anyway). and has been for a couple of weeks. How can you prove its going to be reliable. How many people will be able to map it properly? How many people have access to a decent fabricator to make the required bits? And can live without there car for the time it takes to do.

    Theres a lot of people jumping on the tfsi bandwagon without any real evidence regarding it yet. Yeh Prawns is going good just now, but he's not exactly clocked up any sort of mileage on it, and his car was pretty well engineered in the first place, as opposed to most of the cars i see that are thrown together without a lot of thought
    #66
  27. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Enough teasing already, has anyone actually got any information on a decent K04 exhaust fanimold that costs £350!??!?!
    #67
  28. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Bit strong isnt it?! Im sure everyone takes care when building an engine. No ones is really "thrown together"

    Prawns car isnt the be all and end all and isnt far superior to everyone elses.
    #68
  29. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    If we can try and keep this thread on track as this was the biggest problem for people like me trying to research this upgrade for my S3 and people wondering off topic. The amount of rif raff people have to go through in order to find facts and tips is unbelievable.

    Just saying:)

    Cheers
    #69
    dusty, superkarl and Jason.s like this.
  30. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Tbh you`ve made your mind up so stick with that. Theres plenty of build threads of all varieties of setup. Westy and Phil have maxed the standard k04. Prawn maxed out the k04 hybrid. Gazz is doing a different version of the K04 hybrid. Welly did the IHI sort of thing, Tuffty did the BT thing and Karls doing it now along with a few others, Prawn did the TFSI turbo. Theres a wealth of information out there thats easy to find.
    #70
  31. vroomtshh
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    vroomtshh Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Nope, not strong at all. Do you see many 1.8ts? I don't mean 'forum famous' cars. I mean 90% of the half arsed cars that are running about and know nothing of the internet fame they could be achieving?
    I'm not saying Prawns is the be all and end all (If I have to pick one car, then it would probably be Tuffty's), but his car is better thought out than most. You seem to have some sort of issue with Prawn. Thats fine, but his car is remarkably well thought out, and engineered properly in the right places
    #71
  32. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    TBH I believe the LOBA KO4 hybrid or TD stage 4 Hybrid combined with the Relentless tubular manifold will get me what i want.
    I cant find any one with this exact set up though, but will keep searching:)
    Gonna be a long wait for it to arrive from the states but will be casting a very close eye over the quality of their V3 manifold and will report back what the MPI (magnetic partial inspection) and X-ray report has to say,If its **** or good i`ll probably be beefing up the welds with a coded welder:)
    #72
  33. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Best of luck
    #73
  34. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Without wanting to turn this thread to sh!t.

    It is strong. People that have worked hard to build a car/engine will take that as being a bit cntish. Karl for instance has spent a long time building an engine to the best of his ability and im sure he wont appreciate it being said he through it together.

    Who cares about internet fame? People build it for themselves not to gloat and become well known across the internet. They dont need to impress people.

    I have no issues with Prawn, i spent a lot of time with him at Inters as he camped with us and he`s a really good guy and i was backing him every step of the way and giving what advice i could to achieve better times on the strip.
    #74
  35. vroomtshh
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    vroomtshh Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Again, your talking about Karl, a guy who also has a well thought out build. Your not listening to what I'm saying. I'm talking about the people your not seeing on here. All the ones who'll be jumping on this 370bhp bandwagon without having the fundamentals in place in the first instance
    #75
  36. hoffmanvp3
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    hoffmanvp3 Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    There goes the neighborhood
    #76
    Jason.s, Prawn and [Dave B] like this.
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    yes
    but I am not ready to share this info on a forum until I have thoroughly tested it to extreme hybrid use..
    Time is my enemy as usual and its 2 months behind so far
    #77
  38. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    I will be interested in what you find out with the relentless thing.. Will you post up what you find?
    #78
  39. vroomtshh
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    vroomtshh Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    Me too. I'll be especially interested in how you MPI a stainless fillet?
    #79
  40. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Sep 26, 2013]
    So their isnt a high flowing cast mani for £350 then....:p
    #80

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