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Badger5 TIP & JC Filter on Friday :)

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by [Dave B], Feb 8, 2011.

  1. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Not been fitted as yet but its the same configuration both Welly and I run... mines a little different as I need to sort the N75 duty cycle out in the map so I am using it to curb the 33 odd psi of boost it currently wants to give me but on yours it will stop the spike and allow boost up to boost request in the map or lower... won't have any affect on power but will drop the peak torque a bit due to capping the spike...

    The TT will be coming back sometime next week I think so will post the results if you want...

    <tuffty/>
  2. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
  3. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Here is a pic of the MBC/N75 parallel setup..
    [​IMG]

    I would personally recommend you use a Forge UNOS rather than a bleed valve or any other MBC as they just work... anything else I have seen or tried does not have the level of control the UNOS has and bleed valves are just rubbish..

    <tuffty/>
  4. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Tuffty what are the benefits of running the above setup?
  5. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Went to Jabba yesterday and they checked over my car.

    Was boosting off the map sensor of 1.55bar and confirmed I was getting a boost spike.

    Apparently according to Kev they will map cars to 1.65bar if running V-power, I asked to have the boost wound back a tad as didn't want the same accident happening down the road so ge dropped boost, took it for another spin and was still seeing a spike so said he'd chuck a new N75 on as mine could be sticky.

    Took it for another spin and said the boost seems more controllable but does still pull quite quickly from low down, should be running about 1.4bar now...

    Seem to hear conflicting stories from different people, I was told yesterday that the BAM engine runs different pistons, never heard of this before.
  6. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    In Daves case no more huuuuuuuge boost spike... its only really suitable for certain circumstances tbh, to control spikey boost really...

    If you are not having a boost spike issue (more likely on hybrids and BT's than stage 1 or 2 K03/4 cars) then there is no real benefit other than making the car a little smoother to drive...

    <tuffty/>
  7. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    I've been watching this thread with interest :). It does seem to point to a faulty n75 as the cause of spikey boost but it still makes me wonder how much control a working N75 can actually provide i.e. the working n75 seems to have smoothed off about 2-3psi of boost. My problem is that i'm currently peaking at over 26 so I could really do with shaving off about 6psi! Anyway, tonights test should reap some interesting results so watch this space...

    Jabba mapped mine for vPower and it was running at 26psi = 1.8bar....have you done any vagcom logs since yesterday? It'd be interesting to see the requested boost your map is now set to. It's encouraging to hear replacing the n75 helped, did they say which n75 they replaced it with? I take it that it was a replacement F valve?
  8. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Yeah is the replacement 'F' valve, 058906283F...

    Can't do any logs myself, don't have vag com but was going to borrow my mates liquid gauge and see what that says, as the map shouldn't be exceeding the map sensor I should see the max request vs actual...

    Have you spoke to Jabba ? I'd be confident that they wouldn't have mapped your car to request 1.8bar through talking to them recently, doesn't sound right to me.
  9. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    I've not spoken to Jabba, but to be fair they did map it nearly 4 years ago so from their view anything could have happened since. I'm only sceptical as the requested boost was at max throughout most of the range and I had no other supporting mods on the car.
  10. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    The map shouldn't change in the 4 years, Once applied it doesn't alter, I'd ring them up and ask to speak to Mike who mapped, see what he's got to say, there quite a treck for you aren't they ?
  11. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Funky, is your actual boost a hell of a lot higher than your requested boost? The issues I have are because my actual boost is about 4 psi higher than what the ECU is expecting and this results in occaisional limp mode.
  12. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    whats the betting you still see >2550mb, and you will be blind to the level of boost beyond this 1.55 bar without having a proper gauge on it
    Request boost is one aspect of the map, the n75 control of how it achieves this is another, and is part of mapping.. PID control terms for it.
    Change some hardware, or have some wear and tear which changes the control characteristics and the closed loop control, can fail to control the boost... Sitting a boot request instantly high being one method of almost certainly getting a spike! Just log your request and duty cycles and see >94% duty cycles as soon as you are on the loud pedal combined with the high boost request... and its likely to shoot past the request (which if off map sensor or at max map sensor is quite likely)

    MBC in parallel (ball and spring type MBC not bleed valve!) can be used as a sort of "blow off" vent to open DV and cap the spike which may otherwise occur. For its £59 ish price ist probably cheaper than a visit for remap, or change of remap, or throwing a bunch of other parts at the car... so is suggested as an option..
  13. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    It doesn't seem to be on the CC map (logs on page two of this thread). The challenge on the jabba map was that requested boost (+ambient) and actual boost (+ambient) were 2550mbar for most of the range, but that's only because the map sensor only goes up to 2550mbar, hence the actual boost (+ambient) was closer 2800mbar.
  14. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    he is'nt running that map now tho
  15. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Ah thanks guys. The highest boost reading i'm recording on a new N75 is 2390 and on my dodgy N75 it's 2540 so I'm nearly maxing out on my N75.
  16. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    For examples sake, below are the requested boost settings for the jabba map and the CC map. IGNORE the actual boost as that's not part of this example:

    Jabba map:

    [​IMG]

    CC map:

    [​IMG]

    Notice the difference in Cmd pressure.
  17. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Yeah know what your saying bill, going to try this liquid gauge out sn, but I have a sneaky suspicion you could be right with boost exceeding the map sensor, keep you updated...

    Can see the obvious difference in request Dave between the 2 maps, Jabba map seems crude...

    Id still ring Mike and ask about it, see why it was set up like that...
  18. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    ...not your n75, your map sensor
  19. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Oh so is block 115 reading data from the N75? What block reads the map sensor?

    What I'm saying is I am getting a boost spike with one N75 valve compared to another so this cant be the map it must be a faulty valve?!
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  20. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    No, block 115 is requested vs actual boost. That data is coming from the MAP sensor.

    You're never 'maxxing out' the N75 is what Bill means I think, the N75 valve is simply open or closed, or a degree in between. You're maxxing out the MAP sensor as it can't read above 2540.

    If the new N75 valve has a lower value in actual pressure, then it seems that the old valve was faulty and not as quick to operate to cap the boost spike. New valve = sorted.
  21. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    When I've fitted the new n75 tonight, what block would I log to see the n75 duty cycle? What combination of blocks would give me the most appropriate info?
  22. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    115 will give you requested boost vs actual boost. 118 will show actual boost and N75 duty cycle.
  23. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    118, that's the bugger! Thanks Welly, i've got your number ;)
  24. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    I don't mean hyjack the thread but have justbeen out in mine to see whats going on with the map...

    First of all, this may seem like a real dense question but why when peolpe talk about boost pessures its mentioned as '2540mb' as an instance, but I always see 1550mb for example ??

    I've just been out with the liquid gauge and it would seem my command boost is now 1.35mb which i'm happy with, but when I look at actuall boost its peaking at 1.54mb ??

    How can this be ?? I thought if the requested boost was exceeded the car would go into limp mode...

    The torque figures do seem more friendly though, not a hint of spike and was seeing a peak of 271lbft. (instead of spiking above 300)

    Bit lost with the requested vs actual if anybody has any ideas...:ermm:
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  25. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    If you are using liquid logging, then you will see a MAP sensor limit of 1540.

    VCDS logs command and actual boost including atmospheric pressure, which is around 1000 mb (hence the 2540). To get the positive boost pressure from VCDS, you subtract 1000 mb.

    Liquid does this for you on the fly.
  26. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Ah right, cheers mate, explains that one then...

    Regarding the actual boost I was funny enough seeing a max of 1.54mb which would be the map sensor exceeded,

    What would cause the boost to be higher than the requested, looking at my figures then I can't really be sure what my actual boost is :(
  27. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2011]

    115 is requested vs actual boost, you will see actual boost and n75 duty cycle on 118
  28. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    like I said.. I bet you are running more than 1.55bar boost actual.... and looks like you are on the limit of the sensor. get a proper boost gauge to verify

    like I said

    Nope you cant..
  29. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Bill, any ideas what would cause the actual boost to be higher than requested ?
  30. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    mapping, n75, actuator, leaky pipe, wastegate sticking to name a few potentials
  31. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    OK, progress!

    After swapping the N75 last night for s3daves 'c' valve I went to start the car and do some logging and the battery was dead :(, so I took it out to give it a charge and left the logging for today. So, earlier on I took it out to do some logging and realised that there was little to no boost....after some research on the Internet I quickly realised that I'd fitted the n75 the wrong way around DOH!

    So I switched it around and then went out to do some logging, below are the results:

    [​IMG]

    So, I *think* it's sorted :) The car pulls a lot smoother and from the graphs it looks like it's peaking at about 21/22 psi and maintaing >17psi through to over 6krpm. The N75 duty cycle looks about right and the requested vs actual boost looks ok....it also peaks at about 217g/s which according to the 0.8 rule means it's generating about the right kind of numbers.

    It looks like I need to order a new n75F and give s3dave his 'c' valve back and then just enjoy the car for a while!
  32. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Nice one Dave, good figures !
  33. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Good work mate... nice airflow :thumbsup:

    <tuffty/>
  34. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Nice man, airflow suggests 270bhp! What airflow did it make at Bills on the old spikey N75?
  35. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Great work dave...
  36. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    And thanks for lending me the n75, very much appreciated :)

    IIRC it was about the same but it drives so much better now. If anyones on a stage one map and is running around 300lbs torque i'd recommend they change their n75!
  37. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Wow that's some transformation. I need to do some logging now I've got my new N75 but I still think I have issues.
  38. JS1500
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    JS1500 Howdy

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Noted! I'll be on the hunt for a new N75F as soon as I have 2 shillings to rub together!
    Cheers for posting your info.
  39. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    No probs, hope it helps :thumbsup:
  40. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Feb 24, 2011]
    Update!

    I ordered a n75F valve and it seems the 'F' valve has been superceded by part nubmer 06A 906 283 E. I'll fit this weekend and report back.

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