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Badger5 TIP & JC Filter on Friday :)

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by [Dave B], Feb 8, 2011.

  1. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Here's the thread with a standard S3 on stage 1 map that saw about 20bhp gains in power http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/109356-3inch-tip-tests-danes-s3-today.html

    Makes sense too. His max g/s before the mods is 196.4, his max g/s after the mods is 215.28. That is a 9.6% gain in peak g/s values. So if he was hitting around 250bhp on stage 1 before mods, then after you would expect something like 275bhp. Which is rougly what the dyno showed.

    Does this not suggest that something is amiss with your car? Although it's not comparing like with like, as Danes S3 is using an RTech map, and you are CC.

    Should different maps come into play here??? Are these two mods not about increasing airflow, if so, shouldn't you see the *same* increase in airflow regardless of what map you are using?
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
    #41
  2. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Helloo!

    My results are totally the other way around to yours, 255 ftlbs as opposed to 300ftlbs but im running 19 psi and I'm running IE rods. It might not be as high peak figure but mine stays there for 3k revs

    IIRC mine went from 251 brake to 270 brake by just bolting on Bill's TIP then Bill applied a custom map to coax a few more ponies from the old girl to end up at 278 brake.
    #42
  3. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Was it a totally custom map? Or some generic stage one map like Custom Code or Revo that was "tweaked" a little to get more power?
    #43
  4. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Some more info to add, the last set of vagcom logs I ran with a fully working car, jabba map and standard TIP and filter gave me a max of 202g/s (252bhp using the 0.8 rule). I've just been outside and done a 3rd gear run and achieved 210g/s (262bhp using the 0.8 rule). I think it's fair to attribute this to the TIP and filter.

    Metric, there seems to be so many variables which effect the output of these lumps I wouldn't get hung up on a specific number increase from a mod such as the TIP and filter. However I think there's enough evidence on this and other forums that shows that it helps make what you've got that little bit better.
    #44
  5. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Badger 5 Edition one...

    <tuffty/>
    #45
  6. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    I don't think that conclusion is quite safe. Seeing 210 g/s on a totally standard S3 using CC stage one is not unusual. See my logs here View image: Run 05 APRIL 2010 02 - totally standard S3 on CC stage one.

    That is why I asked if you have logs from when CC was installed, but before you added the TIP and filter. If you don't, there's no way to tell what improvement you made, if any, without removing the mods.

    Obviously if you were seeing the same results as Dane, then it would be "safe" enough to guess that you saw similar gains from the same mods, because it would be unusual to see a standard S3 on CC stage one hitting 270bhp.

    Agree that there are very many variables - but that's not a good argument for not analysing results :sm4: . Analysing yours or others results has nothing go to do with questioning whether the mod will make things better.

    As with anything, the more samples you have, the more accurate a conclusion you can make.
    #46
  7. shanejess
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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    im not bothering with one of these 3inch TIPs, im concerned i might bend a rod.
    #47
  8. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    That sounds like a good point.

    Bill, should we be replacing rods if we go with the 3' TIP & filter upgrade? You mention here that even on a stage 1 we should be concerned about rods http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/113232-remap-gains.html#post1174715 .

    But if we end up hitting figures like Dane, would rods going not be an even bigger concern? Because these figures are what you'd get from a stage two remap Custom-Code - The Latest Innovation in Serial Port Chip Tuning Technology. Remap VW - Audi - Seat - Skoda - 1.8 20VT DBW 225 BHP

    What would your advice be?
    #48
  9. cecilthesausage
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    cecilthesausage ...It's Never Finished...

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Why does bills 3inch TIP not fit APY Engines.... Excuse my ignorance lol
    #49
  10. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Ok, purely to staisfy Metric's analytical mind ;) I've had a dig through the graphs from the day and we did do two runs with the only variables being the TIP and filter, graphs below:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Where high flow is required, the setup does do the business.
    #50
  11. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    I'm pretty sure he has\is making a version to fit APY. Search back in the forum a few days and you will find a thread.
    #51
  12. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Iteresting read Dave.

    I would assume that are maps were very similar when applied as it was mike who did both yours and my cars with a custom map.

    The most I've ever seen from my car with the liquid gauge, and I don't know how accurate that is, was 1.55bar which equates to about 22 psi, I've spoke to mike recently and he has told me that he never exceeds 1.6 bar 'ever' as it does become dangerous for the rods and fir the turbo...

    Id think that there may be another issue for the high boost you were seeing, it does seem extreme, was your N75 valve investigated at bills ??
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
    #52
  13. shanejess
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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    have new rods fitted at bills at the same time as 3inch tip, LOL.
    #53
  14. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    I'm pretty sure he has, or is making one, to fit an APY. Search back a few days in the forum, and you will find a thread.
    #54
  15. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    The TIP will fit APY with ESP (Welly's S3 is APY... or was at least lol)... its the non ESP one he is trying to get hold of a TIP for to ensure correct fitment...

    <tuffty/>
    #55
  16. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    I think 336ftlbs is far more likely to bend a rod, than my 257 ftlbs, not that torque is the be all and end all of rod bending.

    I changed my rods after a stage 1 remap as a matter of course so that I didnt have to worry, so much, about bending rods.
    #56
  17. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    That's interesting, Mike custom mapped my car about 4 years ago and the print out I still have shows 406nm (300ishlb) torque from the run on the day. It's performance has never changed since then and I've never had a fault code for the N75....

    We didn't investigate the N75 at Bills as we'd run out of time by then. I am tempted to swap it but TBH honest I'm expcecting to see no change.
    #57
  18. Essflee
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    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Looking at the graph Dave, how come your still boostng to 26psi after the new map was applied, them sort of pressures will cook your K04.
    #58
  19. cecilthesausage
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    cecilthesausage ...It's Never Finished...

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Mine does not have ESP.... So I'm fecked lol
    #59
  20. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Good question, and yes I know. Tufty pointed out the glowing exhaust manifold on one of the runs!

    Answers on a postcard regarding the random massive boostness.
    #60
  21. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Looks good. So these graphs are before you applied the CC stage 1 map? Only using your original Jabba map?

    Have you got the logs - to take a look at g/s values before and after?

    The runs that have the 3inch TIP, did they also have the new cone filter added?
    #61
  22. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    I would like to think its the N75 in this case as the boost request as off the chart on the jabba map so its plausible that running high duty cycles for so long could lead to a premature end to your N75... would like to have tested the opening pressure of your actuator too in case its gone weak...

    Its a bizarre one as I have not seen a CC stage 1 hit that kinda boost before...

    <tuffty/>
    #62
  23. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Yes.

    No, but Bill might?

    Yes, I didn't do any runs with just the TIP.
    #63
  24. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    You don't know anyone with a spare 'known working' N75 that I could borrow do you?

    Regarding the actuator, if this was the cause surely it wouldn't have been like this when it was first mapped at 40k miles?
    #64
  25. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Ive got a spare n75 for you to try, pm me
    #65
  26. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    I don't mate no...

    I doubt it mate... the request on the map was high anyway so you wouldn't have noticed... as the request on the newer map is now less than before, its highlighting a potential issue with boost control...

    I am speculating a bit here of course as diagnosing this would require looking at the boost control components first to see if they are working as expected but its plausible that the high boost request has lead to premature wear on the actuator and/or N75...

    Without actually checking of course I can't it is this but its what I would be looking at as part of the diagnosis process :)

    <tuffty/>
    #66
  27. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Mate, your fine, bill's 3" TIP will fit all APY engines regardless of them being non-esp or esp equipped.
    #67
  28. S3KO4
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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    First thing tomorrow, I will be cleaning up my FPR, the car strongly smells of semi-burned petrol, and on replacing it to 4 bar I noticed some **** on there but never paid much attention, like the rest I have been constantly checking for leaks!
    #68
  29. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    If you do find any **** on the FPR then definately get your rubber fuel lines replaced, there was loads of gunk in mine...
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
    #69
  30. badger5
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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    I think, *best guess* is there's a hardware issue, possibly n75, which is causing the spike.. request on CC1 no more than an initial 2400mb, but it actually goes to 2790mb! and CC1 has a 2200mb overall request...
    N75 would be the first thing I would swap out. like for like before/after dyno with TIP did make only 8bhp from memory, which is low, but the map it was on was also pretty lean..
    #70
  31. badger5
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    [Feb 14, 2011]


    Danes was custom Badger5 map, not revo, not cc
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
    #71
  32. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    It's an APY in spirit....
    #72
  33. badger5
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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    It made gains in airflow and power.... but much lower than Danes.
    engine hardware is the difference, the TIP & install being identical.

    Not all K04 cars make the same power due to mechancial variances, wear and tear etc etc - this one was low, but 8bhp gains from TIP alone is still gains.
    EGT protection comes in very quickly on this car.... quicker than others I remember. Maybe some cat blockage... who knows
    #73
  34. JS1500
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    JS1500 Howdy

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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    Apart from mine.


    I'll be checking my N75 soon then!
    #74
  35. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    LMAO - I'm sorry guys but you crack me up.
    you put remaps on your cars, DOUBLING the boost of factory std often, and you worry about an intake pipe which free's up the intake so the turbo can breathe to its potential, and now worry about rods?
    TIP does not magic you up boost... In almost all results seen so far (excluding Dave as its has a boost control issue), the torque is about 10lbft lower than pre-TIP, but sustained 1000rpm or more longer. Daves car has a boost control issue, which is why it spikes too high for comfort.

    You are modding your cars... You have to decide.
    Keep torque sensible, boost sensible, and you *should* be fine, BUT, there are 210/225 engines suffering rod failures.. Who knows, maybe they see >2550mb boost levels and spike due to other hardware issues??

    Adding 3inch TIP is no different to adding, filters, induction kits, silicon TIPs, aside from this actually does give reasonable airflow and power gains.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
    #75
  36. badger5
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    [Feb 14, 2011]


    This is YOUR PROBLEM dude..
    You do realise 2550mb is the max the sensor can read????? where its way way higher on Daves... a Real 2800mb spike as logged on my dyno!
    you are not running 2550mb, thats just all you can see it running!!!

    Judging with vag-com or liquid is pointless where you see 2550mb boost levels... It can be way higher and you are blissfully unaware, until catastrophy occurs
    :(
    #76
  37. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    Quick update on this, s3dave is knidly lending me a known working N75 to try out. I'll report back with my findings.

    Also regarding bost request on the CC map, it still seems quite high, it just doesn't seem to request it for as long? Logs below from last night:

    Log1:

    [​IMG]

    Log 2:

    [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    Dave.
    #77
  38. badger5
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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    here ya go
    BEFORE:
    Code:
    Group A:	'002			
    	RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow
    TIME				
    STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s
    
    973.19	1640	45.9	4.08	15.5
    974.38	1680	78.9	7.14	28.42
    975.58	1720	89.5	8.5	29.83
    976.78	2160	108.3	10.2	48.36
    977.99	2680	155.6	14.62	87.06
    979.22	3280	191.7	21.42	145.61
    980.41	3800	191.7	21.76	163.17
    981.62	4240	191.7	20.74	175.22
    982.83	4680	191.7	19.04	183.61
    983.93	5120	191.7	18.36	191.78
    985.14	5520	189.5	17.68	201.56
    986.36	5960	181.2	17.34	206.86
    987.59	6400	172.9	18.36	209.19
    
    AFTER 3inchTIP
    Code:
    Group A:	'003			
    	RPM	Mass Flow	Load	Ign. Timing
    TIME				
    STAMP	 /min	 g/s	 %	 °ATDC
    
    7.66	1640	16.06	12.5	26.3
    8.89	1680	18.5	14.1	24.8
    10.09	1720	27.86	79.2	16.5
    11.26	1720	33.25	79.2	13.5
    12.4	2240	52.06	89.8	12
    13.62	2760	98.17	97.6	9.8
    14.81	3400	143.83	100	6.8
    16.02	3880	163.53	100	6.8
    17.21	4280	184.56	100	6.8
    18.44	4760	195.17	100	8.3
    19.62	5240	205.36	100	9
    20.84	5640	213.47	100	12
    22.03	6080	216.33	100	9.8
    23.27	6480	217.19	99.6	13.5
    
    only 8g/s gain overall on this one... but look at the egt's its running!!
    deffo less boost will help. std as it drove in logs of egt's!!! before TIP
    Code:
    Group A:	'031		Group B:	'112		Group C:	'118			
    	Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor		Temperature	Load		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
    TIME			TIME			TIME				
    STAMP			STAMP	°C	 %	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar
    
    132.76	0.992	0.992	133.16	565	0	132.36	1640	34	0	1030
    133.95	0.969	0.977	134.35	570	0	133.59	1640	34	1.2	1040
    135.18	0.906	0.914	135.55	585	0	134.78	1680	30	62	1180
    136.27	0.899	0.906	136.68	605	0	135.89	1960	27	74.9	1300
    137.5	0.906	0.906	137.89	640	0	137.08	2520	26	89.4	1660
    138.71	0.938	0.906	139.1	700	0	138.32	3120	24	85.9	2450
    139.91	0.883	0.906	140.31	795	0	139.5	3680	24	84.7	2540
    141.11	0.914	0.906	141.54	830	0	140.7	4120	25	84.7	2540
    142.23	0.891	0.906	142.64	870	0	141.9	4560	28	86.3	2450
    143.43	0.899	0.906	143.83	905	0	143.02	5000	30	87.1	2360
    144.63	0.906	0.906	145.04	925	4.3	144.22	5440	33	89	2280
    145.85	0.789	0.797	146.24	945	14.5	145.45	5840	37	91	2200
    147.05	0.75	0.735	147.47	935	14.9	146.64	6280	42	88.2	2110
    148.28	0.774	0.789	148.68	925	10.2	147.87	6720	47	86.7	2160
    
    186.86	1.023	0.992	187.27	610	0	186.47	1760	38	0	1020
    188.09	0.938	0.938	188.48	615	0	187.68	1760	39	77.3	1070
    189.28	0.906	0.906	189.68	635	0	188.88	1760	37	63.1	1210
    190.39	0.906	0.906	190.81	655	0	190.07	2200	37	92.9	1390
    191.6	0.899	0.906	191.99	700	0	191.2	2680	37	89	1850
    192.81	0.938	0.906	193.21	770	0	192.42	3320	39	85.9	2540
    194.02	0.899	0.906	194.41	835	0	193.62	3840	39	84.3	2540
    195.21	0.899	0.906	195.63	885	0	194.82	4280	41	85.1	2540
    196.43	0.914	0.906	196.84	920	0.4	196.02	4720	45	85.1	2490
    197.62	0.789	0.797	198.05	945	14.5	197.24	5160	48	87.8	2390
    198.73	0.75	0.735	199.12	940	16.5	198.42	5600	51	90.2	2250
    199.94	0.75	0.774	200.36	930	12.5	199.54	5960	55	90.6	2180
    201.15	0.75	0.782	201.59	930	13.7	200.76	6400	59	87.5	2170
    202.39	0.75	0.704	202.76	940	21.6	201.97	6840	63	84.3	2110
    
    239.38	1.016	0.992	239.76	650	0	238.98	1680	45	0	1010
    240.56	0.961	0.992	240.97	655	0	240.19	1680	45	0	1020
    241.68	0.914	0.914	242.08	665	0	241.36	1720	46	71.8	1140
    242.88	0.899	0.906	243.28	685	0	242.48	2040	46	94.1	1290
    244.09	0.914	0.906	244.52	720	0	243.71	2600	46	89.4	1680
    245.31	0.945	0.906	245.73	785	0	244.93	3160	48	84.7	2520
    246.51	0.883	0.906	246.91	845	0	246.11	3760	48	84.7	2540
    247.72	0.899	0.906	248.13	900	0	247.32	4160	50	84.7	2540
    248.94	0.828	0.821	249.34	935	13.3	248.52	4640	52	85.9	2520
    250.13	0.75	0.688	250.53	945	21.2	249.72	5080	55	85.9	2420
    251.35	0.75	0.743	251.74	920	12.9	250.94	5520	58	89.8	2360
    252.54	0.75	0.789	252.96	920	12.2	252.15	5880	63	91	2260
    253.75	0.75	0.735	254.06	935	20	253.36	6320	66	87.8	2230
    254.86	0.75	0.649	255.26	950	25.9	254.45	6680	69	86.7	2230
    
    as soon as 920'c hits, fuel dumps and bye bye and power aspirations
    needs to flow more.. its reacting like it cannot flow well enough
    #78
  39. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    might be worth checking what it boost with N75 electrically disconnected Dave.. log that..
    the more runs it has the hotter it gets and the load will rise to try and achieve the same airflow target...... aka it winds up its own boost and tries harder, to the limit of other things like egt protection.
    #79
  40. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Daddy

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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    Thanks Bill. I'll give that a try when the N75 arrives from s3dave. One run without N75 and one run with the alternate N75. Just to confirm, am I right in saying that the flow restriction is likely to be coming from manifold/downpipe/cat? Which part is the most flow restrictive as standard (I know we discussed this on Friday but my memory fails me).

    Also, note to self, when doing runs, run it up to 6500rpm! No wonder I was only peaking at 210g/s, I was only running it up to 5900.
    #80

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