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B5 Tip fitted. Turbo flutter while on boost.

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by MintyS3, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    Hi Guys,

    Just fitted badger 5's tip. Gone from a forge tip with a panel filter to a badger 5 tip with a jetex filter.

    All seems to be fitted ok but when on full boost the turbo sounds like its fluttering.

    Stage 1 revo map with aggressive boost. Never seen this problem before. Doesnt flutter when coming off boost, so diverter valve is working properly.

    Any ideas?
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
    #1
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  3. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    Not sure I agree that just because the dv is ok off boost its ok on boost. If it has a weak spring it will flutter as the boost tries to force it open, off boost dv opens with vacuum acting against the spring trying to keep it shut. Vacuum wins and opens the dv. Only way to realy tell is try another dv to eliminate that's at fault. If you log you'll soon see if you're down or lossing boost, could just be you're hearing something that was there before but now is just clearer or more pronounced with the tip.
    #2
  4. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    Could be surge potentially... especially with an aggressive map...

    <tuffty/>
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  5. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    Ive got a yellow spring that I can put in. Forge 007P with a green spring atm.

    Ive got a controller which I can use to turn the boost to performance which is the standard level for a revo map.


    Anything else you guys can think of? We were thinking surging too.
    #4
  6. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    If you have a boost gauge you'll see surge, if you log you'll see surge. Impressive though if just fitting the b5 has taken you to a surge situation, goes to show how much better it is!
    #5
  7. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    Typically on aggressive K04 maps you get what's called cavitation which is a screeching noise as boost comes in... this is due to the OEM and most silicon tips (that are modelled on the OEM tip) not flowing as well as they could...

    The B5 tip doesn't have this issue and the maps aggression can turn into surge... its a problem on some maps as the tuners will have tried to get the boost coming in with a wallop but as the OEM/typical silicon tip doesn't flow that well then you won't have gotten surge in the past but possibly cavitation..

    Set the boost down like you have said and I suspect the prob will go away but I would also suspect you won't have lost any overall performance...

    Its not all about the boost ;P

    <tuffty/>
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  8. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    Cheers guys. I serviced the diverter valve. All looks good inside and functioning fine. Stuck a yellow spring in. Made no difference.

    Set the boost to performance instead of aggressive and its almost completely gone. Was still able to hear it ever so slightly under a certain rpm/gear/throttle but nothing in comparison.

    Im guessing you might be right about the map, stage 1 revo with agressive boost added is just not suitable with the badger tip. Might be time to try that stage 2 map which might be more suitable.
    #7
  9. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    DV may need the service kit,mine went south at Inters when being a wee bit silly Chris

    @ Aggressive map lol Grrr Grrr
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  10. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    Well I had a seal split in the 007P before which caused some fluttering when coming off the throttle. This was fixed by a service kit (new seal) but this fluttering has been when on full boost and fine when coming off.

    Im actually waiting for the new forge dv being delivered anyway so thats fine.

    I tell you its bl**dy fast on aggressive boost though lol. Will run some logs tomorrow. Could really do with a boost gauge as it kinda goes off the scale using vagcom.
    #9
  11. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    I never got to fit mine ( badger tip ) but by all the reviews it does what it says on the tin.
    #10
  12. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Apr 1, 2012]
    Have you sold your s3?
    #11
  13. S3featesV9
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    S3featesV9 Active Member

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    Just did my 1000mile service after rebuild I had. So I'm all good to drive it harder again. On way to work a minute ago I was in 6th going up a hill gave it throttle and I had flutter. Pulled over checked all pipes and everything is fine. So drove the rest of journey giving it a good driving. And it only happens in 6th, guessing due to engine load and boost?

    Dv serviced 2 weeks back and new yellow spring, new badger 5 TIP.

    Any ideas? Is it my CC map boosting to harshly?
    #12
  14. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    In 6th you will load the engine more heavily and now the warmer weather is here the ECU compensates by requesting more boost to achieve the same performance

    <tuffty/>
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  15. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    Bit of a long shot but us it worth logging block 60 and seeing what the throttle plate is doing, maybe it's that which is causing the flutter as it closes/opens to hold torque. Like i say a long shot and appologies if I'm talking ****!
    #14
  16. S3featesV9
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    S3featesV9 Active Member

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    So it isn't anything to worry about? Hoping next month I'll have my car booked in with bill. To have map sorted/tweaked
    #15
  17. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    Wouldn't worry about it at all then... make it a Saturday and I'll be there :thumbsup:

    <tuffty/>
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  18. S3featesV9
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    S3featesV9 Active Member

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    Will do. Rang him other day, said he is packed out for a while :( want it done ASAP tbh. Will try and make it a Saturday though,
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  19. XFi
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    XFi Member

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    Mine is exactly the same on a Jabbsport remap, I only get flutter in 4th to 6th when it's boosting with more load. I too tried a yellow spring but this hasn't helped! Also have a B5 TIP but it's only been since the remap. Getting a Stage 2 map soon which will hopefully sort this out.
    #18
  20. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    Most tuners ramp up the boost request to get the turbo spooling as soon as poss and to give that extra kick.... flip side of this seems to be when you do get the engine breathing nicely by removing restrictions such as the poorly flowing OEM TIP then this 'extra kick' makes the tiny little turbo surge a bit...

    It can be tuned out easily enough with no loss of power etc... just be aware that the warmer weather does make the ECU lift the boost to compensate for the less dense air to overcome the potential loss of performance that is inherent at this time of year...

    <tuffty/>
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  21. ian52
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    ian52 2000 a4 1.8tqs-yellow

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    [Apr 2, 2012]
    Funny you mention about the ecu upping boost when its hot. My car is running about 17 psi but on the warmer days recently its been nearer 20 psi. I did wonder why.
    #20
  22. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 3, 2012]
    it needs more applied pressure to maintain its torque requests....

    those with gauges and this flutter noise, will be ones with high (very high) initial boost spikes.. 25psi+
    rods fella's or cap the spikes with an mbc or get map adjusted to loose the spike if not on rods..

    The air demand is now being fullfilled with the high flowing intake... where it previously would have cavitated and strangled inlet airflow.
    #21
  23. S3featesV9
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    S3featesV9 Active Member

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    [Apr 3, 2012]
    Booked in at badger5 Saturday 12th of may! Woop. Cannot wait to get this horrid spiky harsh map sorted
    #22
  24. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Apr 3, 2012]
    Will get stage 2 revo put on. Its designed to work with an improved tip and filter but no doubt it will be the forge tip or similar as aposed to the b5 beast. Will see.

    Anyone know if the revo sps controller still works with the stage 2 map?
    #23
  25. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Apr 10, 2012]
    Finished off the install....kinda.

    Nice and stealthy now although its very quiet! Almost sounds like it not boosting as hard with the enclosed jetex cone filter. The air box is a shadow of its former self, lots of very large cut outs so shouldnt be muffling the noise too much... Wonder if Ive damaged something with all this test fitting/removal. Probably the mafs broken ha. All fun and games this modding.

    [​IMG]
    #24
  26. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Apr 10, 2012]
    have you tried changing your DV to stock fitment?

    btw, very clean and tidy, i like :icon_thumright:
    #25
  27. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Apr 10, 2012]
    Hmmm mine also makes a light fluttering noise on full throttle in 4th, 5th and 6th. Spec is custom code stage 1 mapped with B5 TIP and filter on it at the time. It's continued to make the noise on a new stock DV, brand new 008p on green spring and old and new stock n75s. I've logged requested vs actual boost and all looks normal, no major spike and not boosting off the map sensor. I'm at a loss to be honest so if anyone finds a solution then I'm all ears!
    #26
  28. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    BUMP.

    I've noticed a few people are experiencing this fluttering. From reading on the net there seems to be conflicting information about whether its turbo related ('surge' or similar) or air creeping past the DV. Can anyone offer clarity? I'd also like to understand if its potentially dangerous or not? Specs of the car are above and logs from early this year below:

    h[​IMG]
    #27
  29. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    Converted PSI/BHP graph below FYI:

    [​IMG]

    Minty - Did you solve this?
    #28
  30. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    it will be your boost spike which is 3500-4200rpm... after which the engine is ready for the extra air it can breathe in

    your logs show the spike... which you cannot log in vcds as its above the map sensor limit.. 2550mb

    improve the engines ability to injest the air, or cap the spike.. (which can be done with mbc in parallel)
    chuff chuff noise and severity of said noise..... if slight, then probably livable, if loud.... cap the spike to stop it.

    got a current log?
    #29
  31. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    No but I can get one, what blocks would you want to see?
    #30
  32. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    <BR><BR>I agree with you, I do have a question though is it not a case that the N75 just isn't doing it's job properly and plays catchup? Hence the over shoot and then stabilisation? The MBC is basically doing the job of the N75 but works in real time rather than the lag that is experienced due to the PID tuning? if you can resolve those issues will it not sort out the over boost...
    #31
  33. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    ***Warning, potential noob comments below***

    ^^^This is what I'm thinking Beachbuggy. I don't want to run a MBC as it feels like a tool to solve the symptom rather than the problem. I'm ok with looking at options to improve the engines ability to injest air, but TBH I thought that if the car was mapped with the TIP on it then I would have sidestepped this issue. Could it be because the car was mapped with a potentially faulty N75? As mentioned its now on a new OEM N75 and a new 008P DV so I expect the hardware to be ok. The flutter is only slight but TBH I'm staying off WOT at the moment just in case.
    #32
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    yes, totally down to map and its pid control....
    a non techy solution being an mbc..

    overboost can be resisted for sure.. in software

    revo's for example are typically very spikey... stage 1 or 2... >25psi often seen. Not every ones cup of tea in delivery but pokey... (I wont mention rods)

    tame the requests and PID control and it can be smoothed out.. and on hybrids in particular, the onset cannot be all of it, all at once as surge will prevail. after 4200rpm, the engines volumetric efficiency is up to the incoming air..

    Choices are improve the VE at the lower rpms or tailor the boost onset accordingly.. and when ready let it have more (subject to egts and all the other stuff)
    #33
  35. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    if slight, you are probably ok..
    things which effect this is the total volume and flow efficiency of the "whole setup" and by that I mean inlet to exhaust.
    buffer a larger "volume" which needs to be filled (compressed) by the likes of wellys supersize pipes and toyo core, suppressed the onset of surge.. pushing its severity and rpm start point upward.. as an example.

    yep, mbc as suggested is crude bolt on band aid.. and suggested as I dont expect you to have mapping spotware or knowledge to deal with the ecu... and mbc is both cheap, and diy for fitment, hence suggesting it.

    you could see about dropping % load scale a few % in unisettings to see if the clipped onset is enough, without sacrificing the rest of the >4krpm boost level..

    log wise.. 003,115,118 are usefull as are 002,020,118 & 003,031,112 and several others.. Depends on what you are after doing with it and time/inclination you have I guess

    what map is on there now? do you know? - EDIT: REVO I see.... what settings?

    good luck
    #34
  36. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    Is the spikey nature of the Revo maps down to the fact they tune it this way to spin up the turbo or because they haven't PID tuned and are using stock PID maps?

    From what I've seen some far, the initial overshoot is the delay/reaction of the N75, this is reinforced by the fact a MBC solves this problem straight away and thus can only infer the N75 is slow in doing it's job, and the flutter is the N75 oscillating due the PID controllers regaining control to a steady state. If you are running stock PID maps, these have been tuned for a stock turbo at 210/225bhp and the load maps designed and tested by VAG if you start to deviate from these then I imagine that the resulting overshoot/flutter and potential surge is bound to occur. MBC is a hack, but even so it provides a good safety feature in the event something goes wayward.
    #35
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    pid is aggressively set... both in stock form and by some tuners beyond that..

    others crank it back.. and get smoother delivery
    #36
  38. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    #37
  39. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    boost needs pulling back a smidge to ride the surge line
    #38
  40. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    Is this doable in the CC map?
    #39
  41. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    Only thing Ive noticed with my n75 is that its only reading as 94% open when on full boost. I know it should show 100%. Certainly used to.

    When I bring the boost down on my revo map it helps. Lower it goes the less fluttering.

    I still need to take a day off work and get stage 2 slapped on, see what that does.
    #40

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