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B5 S4 Engine Pull.

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by Siena, Mar 26, 2009.

  1. Siena
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    Siena Active Member

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    [Mar 26, 2009]
    Due to some maintainance issues, had to pull the engine on this S4.

    Now as most will already know, the B5 S4 engine bay is pretty packed, and lots of items which would normally be easily accessible are buried deep within the bowels of the bay.

    I've always found it easier to remove the tranny and motor as one assembly.

    A 2-poster lift, and engine hoist are very useful, I wouldn't attempt this on my driveway.

    I proceeded as follows:

    1) Before pushing car into the workshop, I first drained all the coolant. I also removed the front bumper, and drained the screen wash, PAS fluid, and connected aircon equipment to both high and low ports of the car, and recovered the refrigerant.

    Capacity is usually 750 grammes, +/- 50g. In this case, I recovered 460 grammes, so though the system was working, it was down on weight.

    2) Car was then positioned centrally over the 2-poster ramp, and the arms carefully extended. I made certain the rubber-protected pads would contact the B5 lifting points.

    3) Took the weight, but only just.

    4) I disconnected the battery, then removed the four 8mm bolts that secure the lid to the electronic box in the scuttle chamber. Removed the ECU retaining clip, then carefully lifted the ECU out, and disconnected the two connectors, as well as the five engine-to-dash / main harness connectors.

    5) Removed the rubber strip that seperates the scuttle from the engine bay, and carefully unclipped the engine harness conduit from the frame.

    6) Disconnected the PAS oil cooler, high pressure line (to rack), removed the engine covers, and disconnected the fuel lines - feed (high pressure) return and vent to charcoal cannister.

    7) Removed the air box, after unplugging the MAF, and ignition amplifiers. Disconnected the throttle body feed.

    8) Disconnected the engine-to-heater matrix feed and return, and pushed the two hoses downwards through the scuttle area, and into the engine compartment.

    9) As I had recovered the aircon refrigerant, I was no free to disconnect the condenser from the receiver drier, and compressor. I removed the front clip / radiator and lock carrier, after first disconnecting the bonnet release cable.

    8) I now raised the car fully, and disconnected the two sleeves that connect the exhaust system to the catalysts. One had bolts so rusty, the wouldn't come undone, they just crumbled, and rounded off. I used a disc cutter to cut the bolts free, then disconnecting the exhaust rubbers, gently worked the system backwards, and lowered it to the ground. One of the hangers was corroded, and had let go of the pipework, but it's weldable, will look at that later.

    9) I then removed the heatshield in the transmission tunnel, and removed the shield that covered the propshaft-to-transmission connection, then recovered the 6 allen headed bolts, seperating the prop from the transmission.

    10) I seperated the driveshafts from the transmission - these are 10mm splines, 6 per side.

    11) Unbolting the rear of the subframe, I allowed the tail of the tranny to drop, enough to reach up, and disconnect the shift linkage, as well as the stabiliser rod.

    12) Lowering the car till the wheels were just touching the ground, and working from the engine compartment, I removed the tiny clip that secures the clutch slave cylinder feed to the cylinder itself, and pulled the pipe free.

    13) There's an earth strap on the driver's side, between the mount and the frame. It was easier to remove the 6mm allen-headed bolt that secured this strap to the mount. The battery positive terminal was then fed through the scuttle, and secure to the engine with cable ties.

    14) The car was now raised for the last time, and the two 13mm nuts that secured the engine mounts to the lower carriers were removed, before the car was now lowered. I attached an engine hoist shackle bar to the lifting points - there are four, but you only need to use two in a diagnol arrangement.

    15) I then attached the hoist, and just lifted the engine / tranny clear of the lower carriers. Working from the ground, I unbolted the front of the subframe, recovering the 2 long bolts, and the slightly shorter ones, that go through the ARB brackets / lower engine mount carriers into the frame, and allowed the subframe to drop. As the catalysts are still connected, they will not pass through the gap between the subframe and main frame easily, hence I lowered it completely.

    I was now able to raise the engine / tranny fully, and pull the lot out. A quick examination showed a source of rattles, that tends to afflict early S4's - exhaust manifold / turbo heat shields, that had broken free of their securing clips. They had also split, so I'll be welding those tomorrow.

    I'll be splitting the engine and tranny tomorrow too, so we'll see what the dual-mass flywheel's like. It has a fair bit of driveline shunt, so I suspect the flywheel's in bad shape. There's an oil leak from the driver's side turbo oil return line, but will be examining the connections, see if they're loose. The pipe itself seems in pretty good shape, so leak is most likely loose connections, or bad gasket.

    Some pictures:

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    [​IMG]

    To be continued...
    #1
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  3. stapo69
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    stapo69 All hail the mighty quattro!

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    [Mar 26, 2009]
    Nice write up, you have too much time on your hands, to remove an engine and write up how you did it!

    Roughly how long did this take you? Hopefully when my engine comes out it'll be for new bigger turbos! Clutch too and possibly flywheel. Maybe a job for someone who clearly knows what they're doing....like someone who does decent write ups on major jobs like this......

    Going for health check in a couple of weeks before my Ring trip so hopefully nothing major will need replacing. Fingers crossed.

    Keep up the good work!
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  4. Siena
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    Siena Active Member

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    [Mar 26, 2009]
    Lol.

    I started at 10:20, was all out by 14:37.
    #3
  5. Blue_Thunder
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    Blue_Thunder Active Member

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    [Mar 26, 2009]
    And time to check the stopwatch too!

    Good work Siena. If I get a house with a garage before my turbos blow again, I'll be using this write-up to kick start my future hobby!!
    #4
  6. stapo69
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    stapo69 All hail the mighty quattro!

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    [Mar 26, 2009]
    So an engine pull takes 4hrs 17mins, that is quick! So 16mins 42secs for turbo swap, clutch and flywheel done in 6mins 21, a matter of seconds for injectors and fuel pump, and all back in and I'll be home for tea time with 400+bhp!
    #5
  7. andybnwc
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    andybnwc Member

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    [Mar 26, 2009]
    so that works out £250 ish per hour labour then as most say £1000 for a engine pull
    #6
  8. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    andy: the charge for the pull will include refitting, which will probably take a bit longer, but ye, garages like to ream you a new arsehole for things like this, as to most people its a huge scary major job.

    If you say 10 hours for the pull and refitting, which as you say is usually charged at around £1000, thats £100 an hour...

    Once you start talking about rates over £35-40ish, your being ripped off imo.
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  9. andybnwc
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    andybnwc Member

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    I see your point , and yeh £100 an hour is expensive . Seems like an exellent money maker. To me doesnt seem to bad with the right tools just wish i had some ramps wouldnt fancy scratting around under the car on my back. On the other hand finding specialists without masssive costs is hard . I used unit 20 he was cheaper than normal prices and an exellent service even when i kept asking for extra bits. If i could of got the car to siena i would of done that .
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  10. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    I guess a "specialist" will put a premium on the price, as its kinda a captive market. Enthusiasts who dont want to do the work themselves, and dont want to use the main dealer, will generally try a specialist before using Joe Bloggs garage down the road. This generally means that as long as the specialist is cheaper than the main dealers they'll get the work. Doesnt mean they arent ripping you off though.

    Some of the stuff they do is reasonable, like the £50 health checks they offer for the S4. Although i imagine its keenly priced to get folk in the door, then they can hit them with the full money making price for all the things they find wrong with the car.
    #9
  11. docurley
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    docurley Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    Well done Siena and a write up too.


    What you also have to take in to account is that other work is needed because you don't just pay for an engine to be taken out for the fun of there is always a reason why the engine had to come out.
    #10
  12. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    well ye, but these places often quote around a grand for the pull itself, then other work on top...

    I guess its good to be aware of how long it really takes, and that way you can make a more informed decision on how much some work should actually cost when your being quoted for it by a garage.
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  13. andybnwc
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    andybnwc Member

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    its a good thing this forum is here ,i would never find anyone round here that would do an engine pull , i got quoted £100 for a serpentine tensioner fit then when i got there he said he couldnt do it for that price and said more towards £200 i said .... something rude and left . Supposed to be a VAG specialist ! . On a plus note i did the whole job in an hour . I can not get to service mode in under 10 mins
    #12
  14. Siena
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    Siena Active Member

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    [Apr 10, 2009]
    Well, got the engine and box back into the car on Tuesday, and fired her up.

    Damn! Coolant leak from passenger side turbo cured, but oil from the driver's side unit still there. It appeared to be coming from the supply line, and on the driver's side, the union on top's in the worse possible place to reach.

    I had fitted new copper washers, as well as new couplings to both turbos. The only thing left it could be was a hairline fracture in the oil feed. Problem is, to remove it and get it checked required a second engine pull...

    Well, pulled the engine and tranny yesterday, removed the oil feed. Just looking at the pipe revealed nothing, so it was left to my local hydraulics specialists to fit it to a rig, where it could be pressurised.

    It held fluid up to 3 bar, over that however, revealed a weep from a crack barely visible to the naked eye. I had a used pipe left over from my old 2,7 Biturbo motor, and was able to fit that. The engine's back in, and I had an opportunity to test the car, after fitting an RS4 clutch, and single-mass flywheel.

    Pedal's very firm, and bite's quite low down, which is great. Hard to say if the lighter flywheel has made the car more responsive, I was very aware this car is someone's pride and joy, and the last thing I wanted to do was thrash it. Will await feedback from him. It's certainly no slouch though.

    A few pictures as the car went back together...

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    #13
  15. Blue_Thunder
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    Blue_Thunder Active Member

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    [Apr 10, 2009]
    Hmmm, looks like the number plate has shattered into a number of readable pieces!

    Glad you go the leak sorted. It's a nightmare when that happens. I've had 4 engine pulls, and had either leaking oil or coolant from one of the turbos on two occasions.
    #14
  16. stapo69
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    stapo69 All hail the mighty quattro!

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    [Apr 10, 2009]
    Magic floaty number plate!

    Good work mate!
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  17. Siena
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    Siena Active Member

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    [Apr 10, 2009]
    Lol...I think the license plate exploded.
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  18. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 11, 2009]
    Nice write up.

    Just as I think I'e made my mind up on the Evo/S4 debate for my next car I see something that changes my mind. That Noggy S4 has just pushed me back to the S4 camp. lol
    #17
  19. stapo69
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    stapo69 All hail the mighty quattro!

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    [Apr 11, 2009]
    What evo you were thinking of?..... I've had both. I had a 6, which was ballistic and was on rails, the S4 wil never match it for out and out performance, however jap stuff breaks, randomly and with no warning, the audi does its best to stop that, and build quality is far superior. Depends what you ultimately want from a car
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  20. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 11, 2009]
    Does depend what the budget allows but if I go for an Evo I would want a 5 at least, I've heard of crank walk issues with anything earlier than a 4.

    Car will be my everyday work car and be used for visiting sites around Herts. I'm thinking getting business use on an Evo may be the killer. It's 12 months off though so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it at the mo
    #19
  21. SonicDeathmonkey
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    SonicDeathmonkey Member

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    [Apr 11, 2009]
    Going back to an earlier post, does a mashed dual-mass flywheel lead to drivetrain shunt? I have a nasty case of it. As far as I know, the cluthc/flywheel are original! I have had the car since 60K its not 175K!
    #20
  22. Siena
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    Siena Active Member

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    [Apr 11, 2009]
    Yes, a worn dual-mass will cause a noticeable amount of driveline shunt, as the heavy duty rubber blocks that interlock in both halves break up, with increased backlash.

    The Nogaro example above had a similar shunting issue, a very noticeable "thump" between overrun and accelleration, especially from low speeds, which has now gone since flywheel was replaced.
    #21
  23. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 12, 2009]
    How much is a replacement DMF?
    #22
  24. Siena
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    Siena Active Member

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    [Apr 12, 2009]
    The S4 / RS4 DMF is about £520 + VAT as at last time I checked.

    Replacement SMF, lighter too, is £257 inclusive.
    #23
  25. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 12, 2009]
    Can you swap them over? Just thinking ahead as I'm not sure how long my clutch has to last as it does slip when I launch hard
    #24
  26. Siena
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    Siena Active Member

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    [Apr 12, 2009]
    If your clutch is slipping, the DMF will be toast, heat's the major culprit in the wear of the DMF.

    The SMF is a direct, bolt-on replacement.
    #25
  27. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 12, 2009]
    Sorry for all the questions and thread hijacking. Is it worth changing over?
    #26
  28. Siena
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    Siena Active Member

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    [Apr 12, 2009]
    If your clutch is already slipping - I know you're a track day fan, then I'd say yes.
    #27

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