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AVS-Longlife Servicing, Engine Death as a consequence-Oil Pickup pipe etc

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by badger5, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    AVS-Longlife Servicing,

    Engine Death as a consequence-Oil Pickup pipe etc


    Has your car run this? What mileage service intervals are there in the service book?
    Do you run this now? think you are saving money?

    Below is a typical, and unfortunately a very common occurance now on ALL VW/Audi brand cars..... Audi's seem to fare worse than most as they introduced Longlife servicing quite a few years ago...


    Symptom:
    Possibly Rattly top end on start up? VVT makes a rattly noise on cranking......
    OR
    Worst case, Death Light comes on dash... Oil Pressure Low... STOP IMMEDIATELY if you get this...

    Example below.. an Audi TT180, just short of 100k miles, fsh. Was at Forge action day on track, did 2 laps before Oil Death light came on. Engine rattled like a mofo... and also made a screaking noise sounding like metal on metal... Ewwww

    Car recovered here for look see.
    drop the sump and see a partially blocked oil pick up pipe
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The sump and oil pump itself were caked in a burnt on black oil residue.. Carbonised oil.... Burnt... which in turn builds to a level which gets sucked into the pickup pipe and progressively blocks it until oil failure occurs.


    Spot the problem here... Its not difficult... one of these rods is a different colour
    [​IMG]

    Oil starved #2 big end..... Ewwwww. Obviously got very hot as the colour indicates...
    [​IMG]

    Pop the cap off #2 rod to look see....
    [​IMG]

    Scored journal, rod and rod cap, and it had spun the bearing shells in the rod.. 19mm crack rods in this one, tangless bearings as std. (shyte imho anyhows)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Comparison of burnt and picked up spun shell on #2 next to #3 which survived the ordeal
    [​IMG]



    more to follow...............
    #1
  2. vrbob
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    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

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    Thanks for that Bill as that shows exactly why its an importnat job to get done even if the car is FSH as most people assume this means its been looked after.

    I did the pick up pipe on my S3 as soon as i got it home after buying it as for the cost and work involved to change it its a no brainer.
    #2
  3. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    absolutely spot on
    #3
  4. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    new pick up pipe for me no old bit going back into the engine apart from pistons ha
    #4
  5. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    The frightening this is that sooo many people have no idea about this!
    Thanks for highlighting it to us bit
    #5
  6. vrbob
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    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

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    Yup this is important for all even low mileage cars especially if your upping the performance at all.
    #6
  7. rhubarb4
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    rhubarb4 Certified Jardo Slayer

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    I had mine done a week after I bought it for piece of mind but what's the best way to stop it happening again.
    #7
  8. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    Regular oil changes....

    <tuffty/>
    #8
  9. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Tuffty, does a catch can help with this at all, or should you double up on oil changes to be 100% safe?
    #9
  10. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    The pics above are fairly tame compared to some I've seen! I've seen a turbo starve of oil then explode and wreck 2 side mount intercoolers as bits of metal are sucked through the boost pipes :sadlike:
    #10
  11. vrbob
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    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

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    As the price of service parts is relatively cheap these days especially if you use people like ECP and there many discount codes you can afford to change the oil etc much more regularly if you are happy doing the work yourself.

    I think my last load of kit for a service i got from Opie Oils and that was 5l of Oil, Oil Filter, and 4 NGK BKR7E`s and including P+P was less than £50 so am gonna make my service intervals much more regularly now so 6-8k probably.
    #11
  12. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    As soon as the performance of your car goes up you'll also be heating the oil a lot more then you would with a stock car. Oil starts to break down over certain temperatures and regular oil changes keeps the oil fresh. For those of us really pushing the limits of our cars it's worth looking into an oil cooler to help combat this problem.
    #12
  13. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    PCV delete setups are more to stop oil getting into the inlet charge and harming power by diluting the fuel octane rating... catch can is there to stop oil from being dumped on the road/track which is a bad thing for obvious reasons...

    I change my oil every 12 months or 6k miles which ever comes first.... a decent 5W40 oil and a filter can cost around £30-£40 so its a no brainer really... a decent oil change service from a reputable specialist won't be massive money either...

    <tuffty/>
    #13
  14. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    Please cross post on other forums..
    people need to know else it will cost them dearly.. Worst case its a written off engine and turbo... ££ Writes of the car for many folks.
    #14
  15. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    Catch can wont help no.
    Frequent oil changes, quality oil and filters...

    All catch cans will do is alleviate and engine which is breathing heavily (another by product of long life service intervals!!!) so not putting the excessive oil filled fume back into the intake for the engine to have to try to combust... Cars which have excessive oil in their charge pipes and charge air pull a lot of timing because the oil they are also burning with the intake air is derating the octane rating severely.. These cars will struggle to make decent power also.
    Common to have a significant residual oil puddle in the lowest parts of the cars charge system - Intercoolers!
    #15
    warren_S5 likes this.
  16. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    My ibiza's engine oil gets changed every 2 races.... <150 miles

    Thats how important I think it is for my spec motor
    #16
  17. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    i use millers oil 5/40 but iv been told to use 10/40 buy cr turbo
    #17
  18. vrbob
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    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

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    Defo can confirm this as when i replaced my SMIC`s with the FMIC last week both SMIC`s had quite alot of oil in them as did the pipe that connects them under the car.
    #18
  19. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    I think 10w40 is better suited for higher mileage cars.I always use quantum.

    I'm sorry but I can't see how peop agree to not change there oil in 2 years!

    Like would you really use a deep fat frier everyday for 2 years without changing it.
    #19
  20. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    5W40 fully synth is what I would use...

    <tuffty/>
    #20
  21. snapon
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    snapon Member

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    I change mine twice a year using Quantum 5W-40 £40 from dealer with genuine oil filter
    Bit of a no brainer really
    #21
  22. Dan s3 audi
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    Dan s3 audi Member

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    i use mobile 1 5w30 fully with a filter from audi, going to be changed every 5k
    #22
  23. Keefy
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    Keefy Member

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    Having religiously changed my oil and filter every 5k, should I be getting the pick up pipe done as well or is this the same thing?
    Apologies of this seems like a stupid question, I'm totally spanner-shy.
    #23
  24. vrbob
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    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

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    I would as peace of mind
    #24
  25. vrbob
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    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

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    #25
  26. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    What about previous owners.... thats the big unknown.
    without dropping sump to look see and get it cleaned you wont know until "perhaps" the coked up sludge will dislodge and block the pickup pipe.
    Not scare mongering... but its happening to folks now.. dont let it happen to you for the sake of less £100 ish

    It will cost an awefull lot more if the dreaded oil light also comes on for you.

    remember, a lot of these audi's were sold with AVS Longlife servicing, being sold as a "BENEFIT", lower cost of ownership, long service intervals etc... all well and good and survivable for the first few "warranty" years in the majority.. Here we are now some 10+ years later and 80k + mileage, several owners.... and who the heck knows what was done.

    It seems more an Audi thing than a Seat/skoda thing (thinking back to 2001 era) as AVS was'nt pushed by the others, but I have seen since they're all at it... so beware 8P's and every VAG car, yours too will suffer from oil issues in years to come unless you change to fixed interval servicing with sensible mileage intervals..
    #26
  27. dre_S3
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    dre_S3 Member

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    Cheers for the heads up gonna take this on ASAP, looks easy enough do you reckon I could give the old sump a quick sand blast to clean the inside, will have it on low pressure obviously.
    #27
  28. snapon
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    snapon Member

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    imo would not provide any benefit
    #28
  29. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    no no no no

    dont sand blast it..
    just degrease it and soak it in strong detergent/gunk to soak off the goop

    I dont ever recommend shot blast and engine parts, ever...
    #29
  30. troopa
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    troopa Member

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    Silly question but does this apply to diesel tdi engines?
    #30
  31. dre_S3
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    dre_S3 Member

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    Ok thanks Bill will just give it a good scrub and soak thanks
    #31
  32. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    It wouldn't hurt to clean it, but most 1.9 dervs go to mega mileage without it, my B5 Passat is on 196k miles, with regular oil changes!
    #32
  33. phil miller
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    phil miller Member

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    ive got a dead ARY due to this, its not just Audis though, 90% of golf TDI turbo whistle problems are due to LL servicing, the most miles between oil changes should be 8-10k MAX, the LL is aimed at fleet cars, half the service miles = less spent of services

    Get the pick up changed, oil and filter change on a reg basis and you wont have a problem

    Top thread Bill
    #33
  34. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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    Good work Bill.

    Been banging on that AVS is just a con for years. It's just designed to lower the lease price to the first owner on a 3 year / 60k deal by taking 1 or 2 services out of the equation. Took mine off AVS as soon as I got it in 2004, but will get the pickup pipe changed next service along with the timing belt.
    #34
  35. Kave
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    Kave Member

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    Funny you should say that, as after years of people banging on about their 1.8t pickups, I got scared and bought one for my 1.9tdi, as for <£15, during an oil change, dropping the sump is no biggie.

    @100k on the clock, was pretty clean in their to be honest, the pickup pipe was pretty clean and the sump had little to no burnt on residue.

    I would say the 1.9tdi gets subjected to much lower temperatures, so we would not suffer from the same fate as the 1.8t's.

    Although felt good having changed it :)
    #35
  36. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    yes..
    engine is an engine, oil is oil and diesels are dirty *******s, so need more frequent oil changes anyhows... let alone long life!!
    #36
  37. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    key part here being REGULAR OIL CHANGES
    #37
  38. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    every diesel oil change I do the oil is mega black and sooty... they carbon up a lot more than petrols because they run cooler..
    Regular oil/filter changes are key to these engines.. and every engine..

    As I have said and others also, AVS, long life servicing is sold by VW/Audi to fleet sales as a cheaper overall Cost of Ownership, which for the owneership of fleet is a couple of services saved... so 1000's of cars, 1/2 the servicing costs, what do they care.. They will of course go for it as they only own the cars for a short time. Its downstream owners to cop the costs of issues caused by their AVS and continuing it... and just because it has service stamps, dealer or indy, the milage intervals is whats significant.. >10k miles.... often.. 20k not uncommon... 20k on one oil? omg!
    #38
  39. vrbob
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    vrbob Thats no Moon, Thats a space station!

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    The amount of owners i spoke to when looking for my current S3 that were all on LL servicing and only bothered to get the car serviced when it told them too on the dash was unbelievable. Who buys a 30k performance car and then scrimps on servicing it properly if you can afford a performance car you should budget to be able to look after it properly.

    The S3 i have now was 2 owners from new and had just ticked over to 100K when i bought it and was on LL for the whole time and there was a period where it went 17k before a service cos according to the owner the dash hadnt told him to service the car. Hence why one of my first jobs was the pickup pipe. There was a bit of burnt on oil on the sump and the pick up pipe did have a bit of sludge too. So was defo worth the monet and effort.

    Also good to point out doing this job allows you to properly change the oil as there is always a bit left in the sump when you do a service so this job gets all the old oil out (i even left my sump of overnight so any oil in the block could drip out too).

    pic of my sump before cleaning
    [​IMG]

    Engine with no pick up pipe fitted
    [​IMG]
    #39
  40. Dan s3 audi
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    Dan s3 audi Member

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