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Audi Uk, Watchdog or VOSA after injector recall?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by monkeynut, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 22, 2012]
    Just a call to see if anybody has made contact and had any joy after suffering problems after having the injector recall work done? Just a basic google search shows all VAG group tdi 170pd engines suffering similar running problems but varying in severity. I am back to the delaer tomorrow after having shelled out £250 thus far on trying to solve the juddering/kangarooing at low revs normally when cold, with no joy. It's so clearly linked to the injector work and I still haven't found anyone on any forum who has solved the problem! The nearest that came to it was the egr cooler and leaking exhaust gas and the inlet manifold vacuum unit/actuator which somebody claims has solved the problem, but why does the symptoms only start after the recall work has been done??? I am calling AUDI UK tomorrow and expect the ususal 'not had any other problems' response, yes I am a pessimist! My mrs says I should sell the car but I feel it's completely out of order to pass the problems on to somebody else who may have no idea that the recall is the prime culprit. Thanks to 'Murran' for the following suggestions which I shall suggest to the service manager tomorrow, along with the moutains of forum printouts I have prepared for him!!

    "my first question to the dealers would be........
    have you fitted a replacement seal kit with the new injectors?
    also when the injectors were removed was the compression seat/seal (that seals the injectors from the cylinder pressures) cleaned and have you replaced the stretch bolts that hold the injectors down and correctly torqued the new ones? they should be replaced! "

    P.S. Look at all the VAG group tales, a drop in the ocean I bet as it's just a small margin of folk who use forums to share their woes...Plus after replies from forum users I guess a lot of folk have just cut their losses and sold the car..

    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...or-recall-now-problems-dpf-£2k-nightmare.html
    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...garooing-when-cold-after-injector-recall.html
    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...ngine-sounding-rough-after-injector-swap.html
    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/audi-s...e-else-problem-2006-2-0-tdi-injectors-17.html
    New DPF cost??? [Archive] - VW AUDI Forum - VWAF
    Diesel in oil after injector change - Skoda Octavia II - BRISKODA.net - The Skoda Forum and Community
    Leon FR PD170 TDi Injector problem - Page 30 - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum
    Cold Start problems with a PD TDI 170 - Page 5 - Skoda Octavia II - BRISKODA.net - Page 5 - The Skoda Forum and Community
    Is it a common fault for the vw golf mk5 gt tdi 170 to have misfiring and dpf problems - uk-mkivs
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  3. chrisbond69
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    chrisbond69 Member

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    [Jul 22, 2012]
    mines back in for the fifth time for the same problem and still is kangarooing, the vacuum thing was replaced at a cost of 174 pound and it didnt remedy it, so im pulling teeth about it too,
    #2
  4. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 22, 2012]
    My £250 has been spent on a exhaust manifold seal (£5 part, £103 labour and diagnosis),car no different. 3 weeks later then the emissions light came on/limp mode etc and a new dpf sensor and regeneration required, £147, car still the same, except on test drive and journey home, else I wouldn't have paid!!
    #3
  5. Rhyso
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    Rhyso Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 22, 2012]
    Take your car to Cardiff Audi and have their apprentices replace the injectors. Mine were replaced last by them August and ive had zero issues.

    All jokes apart i do hope you get it sorted :). Ive been following your story and i can only empathise with your plight :(
    #4
  6. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 22, 2012]
    Is yours a 170PD out of interest? Cheers, to reiterate, my car had zero Dpf/juddering/kangarooing problems before the dreaded recall work was done!!
    #5
  7. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 22, 2012]
    Maybe I should take a drive to Cardiff and have them take a look!! Lol...:)
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  8. TimJK
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    TimJK Member

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    [Jul 22, 2012]
    Not defending them. But the injectors come with new seals on and the recall includes new bolts within the parts list. I know because I used to work for audi. However you will want to check the technician set the injector rockers up properly after fitment.
    #7
  9. Rhyso
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    Rhyso Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    Yep mine is a 170PD. I had zero problems but wrote a letter to Audi as I didn't want them failing on me. After the new injectors I gained another 5bhp!! :) My car had only done 32,000 miles at the time but I'm now on 51,000 miles
    #8
  10. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    If you have a word with Audi UK its amazing how much progress you can make rather than just speaking to the dealer.

    Since the recall I've had:

    2 set of injectors
    1 complete cylinder head
    1 new turbo
    2 new DPF sensors
    1 software update

    All paid for.... And its still not 100%. It going back in for the (7th,8th? time) as since the work its developed a horrible vibration that comes through the steering wheel, gearstick & pedal at between 1200-1900 rpm. That & the fact I saw it return 6MPG the other day, & regualrly stuggle to get over 30mpg driving it like a saint!
    #9
  11. Solz
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    Solz New Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    After the injector recall, ive had to replace two valves and full head recon all under my cost. When my local garage gave me the car back, it was smoking so they took it back in ss they realised when they opened the head up they didnt replace the injector seals. After having the injector seals replaced and bolts car is still smoking, suggesting may have a faulty injector. Booked in wid vw see what culprits have got to say. I personally think it may be these new injectors which are rubbish ss slot of people have had them replaced after the injector recall and still having problems. I would love to have my old injectors back.
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  12. chrisbond69
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    chrisbond69 Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    ok people ive picked my car up today and audi know there is a problem with the 170pd engine since the recall, the master tech said the software update makes your cars dpf operator more often to burn off deposits so basically when theres that slight hesitation its because of that, its certainly not the best way to be dealing with the injector recall and subsiquent problems but what i would urge you to do it to email audi uk headoffice I have an email for service manager for audi uk but also on the case for someone higher.

    everyone who has a problem needs to book there car in and make sure the audi tech makes note of this one the audi tech department system as an unacceptable fault so they know people wont stand for it.
    #11
  13. Alasdair09
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    Alasdair09 New Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    What age range of the injector recalls that are faulty mines an 09 plate is is jerky from cold
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  14. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    Funnily enough the technician who came out with me today and finally wirtnessed the kangarooing has a seatnleon with the same engine code as myself and also has a hesitation which he says is the dpf regenerating more often like you mention Chris, and his car didn't do it before the recall work was done. However, he has told me as my car is doing the kangarooing when cold it can't be a dpf regen. His symptom is like you mention a 'hesitation' at 40mph and he knows it's regenerating. Mine is a more severe jerking at low revs, light throttle when cold and stops doing it when the car is warm? The main similarity is that both our symptoms were not present before the recall was carried out. The car is with them at the moment so I will come back with any info..
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  15. chrisbond69
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    chrisbond69 Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    mine is the same but basically the new computer software update will make your car do the dpf regen lots more often to keep the car carbon free from all temperature ranges, its more apparent when cold, mine is doing it all from cold no faults when warm, and audi technical uk have informed me what I put above, that the programs been updated to operate the dpf more often, which is not a long term fix in my eyes.
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  16. chrisbond69
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    chrisbond69 Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    mines a 2008 mate is yours a 170pd
    #15
  17. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    i bet it isnt. running regen cycles all the time will shorten the overall life of the dpf surely??
    #16
  18. Cossie_boy
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    Cossie_boy Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    I have litetrally just bought mine.

    A3 2.0 TDi 170 Quattro, touch wood its fine all over apart from a slight hesitation then goes in 4th about 3500 rpm and only sometimes in 3rd at 3500 rpm also, that could make sense about it burning **** off when this happens :/

    I know in my age job we had a plethora of Audi/VW with injector problems before the recall and DPF's so can be a pain.

    Would be interested to know if anyone gets sames as me?

    Cheers

    CB
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  19. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    Yes mate, mine is a 2006 tdi 170PD. Sorry I didn't realise your symptoms were also from cold. Interesting that Audi uk have admitted that there is a problem. Do you have anything in writing/email that I could have a copy of? That way, if the comms between my dealer and Audi uk don't reflect what you have been told I can present them with it.. You can remove all personal details obviously it is just a case of having more ammunition to not be charged for yet more diagnostics and fixes that aren't curing my problem. Cossie boy, I've not had any issues at that sort of engine revs, as yet?! Apart for when the car was in limp mode unable to surpass 3000rpm..
    #18
  20. Rhyso
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    Rhyso Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    Does the kangooring occur between 1500rpm and 2000rpm?

    Has Audi tried cleaning out and checking the operation of the EGR valve?

    I would get a slight kangooring normally when crawling along in first and then a slight stutter if cruising at motorway speeds and put my foot down. I cleaned out the EGR and its never done it again. I ran it like that for about 2 months and then later had the EGR mapped out altogether
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  21. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    It occurs normally between 1200-1500rpm when crawling 1st/2nd/3rd gear but you can accelerate through it hence it's more noticeable when plodding along in traffic or car parks etc. The master tech who came out yesterday hsa mentioned the egr as a possibility, amongst other things..I shall be back with any info/findings...
    #20
  22. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    Having re-read your text I'm a little confused, it's easily done!..:) are you saying that Audi have told you that the car will regenerate the DPF from much lower running temps, i.e cold?! This may explain why the kangarooing etc is intermittent and not a daily occurence and that the first half a mile or so from cold the car is spot on with no jerking? It would also explain why it doesn't do it when warm, or rather it's not noticeable as the the regen process is active at the temp range it's meant to operate at. I wonder then, if it's operating far more frequently and from cold, how I (and lots of other folk) have ended up with the DPF sensore knackered and the car unable to regenerate??
    #21
  23. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    Just to clarify a few points here:

    Someone has mentioned having issues with a 2009 TDI, this is'nt the model affected by these issues only PD engines (not CR).

    The EGR will not cause kangarooing, it can cause a slight flutter at constant revs but only if its totally cacked up. The car will run ok with valve open & even better when closed, using VCDS I've ran the engine turning the valve on & off on a sequence test, beyond making the car idle maginally better & slightly improve turbo spool up time, it has no real effect.

    When the injectors are replaced there is a software update to go with it which must be done, this alters the DPF regens to occur more frequently but for much shorter periods of time. It effectively does the same thing as before but in smaller 'chunks' rather than waiting till the DPF is nearly full. The regens will be identical to how they were previously i.e raised revs to 1000rpm & slightly lumpy idle, beyond that the car will actually have more grunt to the additional fueling.

    DPF regen will only occur from cold if the engine was switched off mid regen. As the regen is now only around 5 mins long (rather than 15+ mins like before) & this keeps occuring get the software version on your ECU checked.

    There is a new DPF pressure sensor available to replace the one 'made in the USA' , these sensors fail by reporting an incorrect pressure to the ECU which makes the car think it needs to regen more than it actually does. The fault wont be picked up on a scan as the ECU believes the sensor to be reporting correctly.

    VAG have revised their data for setting up the injector rocker clearances on more than one occasion, from experience I'm willing to bet that a lot of dealers are pretty clueless about this (as they are with the software & sensor updates), & that they are removing & refitting the injector rocker assembly without re-checking the clearances & assuming that they will be the same. Get this checked as other wise it will throw out your injector balance & timing (& has a a big effect of the pre-injection phase).
    #22
  24. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    Thanks Max, can you define the reason why the symptoms are only apparent when the car is cold?
    #23
  25. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    Could be various things as the tolerances within the engine & whats required to keep it running will vary at different temperatures. It's best to be checking the following:

    ECU software - I was told mine was done by the dealer twice, after checking with VCDS it was clear it hadn't. The update resolved a lot of issues so you need to be 100% this was applied.

    DPF sensor - The false information this can provide to the ECU if faulty will adversley affect the fueling which will cause issues. If they can swap the sensor over & check the running with the new sensor this will make sure it isnt replaced unnecessarily.

    Injector clearances - If set incorrectly (i.e too wide at cold) this clearance will change when the engine is up to temperature (clearances reduce at higher temp) so any deviations from the spec they should be set at will also be reduced & the engine will run better.

    Final thing to check & its one of the simplest fixes, have you checked your fuel filter? If its any shade darker than light grey try changing it.
    #24
  26. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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  27. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    wait for it.... just been told by Service Manager that they have found some vacuum hose/pipe at the back of the engine that is split? They are leaving it overnight and going to do the 'from cold' test tomorrow morning.. I wait with extreme apprehension as to whetehr this is successful!! Don't get me wrong, I want it to be but why wasn't this spotted the two previous times it's been in? And it sudddenly only becomes apparent after the injector recall was carried out?! I tried to relay the info you sent me Max to the Service Manager but he was quite dismissive that is was fueling/injector related and said there is no software update to do on my car with the injector recall and that it is running the latest version? He did quote the version but I didn't write it down. Do you know what version am I'm supposed to have? It's funny because prior to the injection recall it hadn't been to a main dealer for 2.5 years!
    #26
  28. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Jul 24, 2012]
    Sorry, more typos. When I mention above that it only became apparent after the recall work was done, I mean there were NO symptoms before the injector work was carried out, therefore it will be an uncanny coincidence that this hose/pipe turns out to be the cause of my problems. Also, to clarify, the service manager has basically dismissed the injectors/fuelling as a cause to my symptoms. Will find out tomorrow morning I guess, watch this space...
    #27
  29. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    [Aug 6, 2012]
    Any updates on this?
    #28
  30. Solz
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    Solz New Member

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    [Aug 6, 2012]
    My car went in for VW to check if their new injectors were faulty and they rung up sayn there is a few covers missing off the engine, so they will not look at the car as it is not complete. My local garge who deoppd the car off to VW told them i left the covers off as you would have to take the cars off to check the injectors, they didnt listen. Car back t my local garage who has had enough of dealing with VW and is going to ring VW head quarters. Ive had enough off them turning a blind eye when they know its all their fault, my car has been off road for nearly 4 months, am thinking about cancelling my insurance as i dont not how long it will take for the car to be sorted.
    Also apparently the injectors that were put into vehicles for the recall the maindelears are supossedly replacing them again.
    #29
  31. The Governor
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    The Governor Active Member

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    [Aug 6, 2012]
    I'm amazed that Audi/VW can reasonably charge for work to fix a fault that becomes apparent after a recall job, how is that even legal?
    #30
  32. Jambo26
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    Jambo26 Member

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    [Aug 6, 2012]
    We had a car at work with the same symtoms after injector recall. He sent his car back into Audi who claim there's no fault. He also asked if they changed the injector harness they replied no. So I changed it and now he says it's running fine again.

    Htp
    #31
  33. Kohaku
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    Kohaku Member

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    [Aug 13, 2012]
    Hi all.newbie checking in.

    Just like to say a big thanks to all above who have highlighted this problem.

    Had 56 model.bought at 2 1/2 yrs old... a couple of months later noticed slight hesitation when cruising at about 3000revs,thought nothing about it,but knew something amiss and hope would go away.Re occured a few weeks later. Then after leaving for a couple of days had starting problems.(Builders next door enjoying Audi antics) so embarrassingly had to join AA. Checked it over, nothing found.and eventually started after about 20 secs.

    Took it down to Audi after suggesting a diagnostic check ( now about £160 down in total ) Outcome...nothing found.only factory settings on ECU were somehow different. Reset it for me ! Buggers undone my Remap from 215 BHP & 316 Torque.

    Two weeks ago.sold it to family member approx £750 under book value.(Highly delighted) until today.....Broke down in town,and had to be towed away to indie garage..Get a phone call..not a happy bunny. am I going to contribute towards cost.omg.

    However in the meantime I discovered you lot,and have saved my day,and many £££££££.... contacted Audi,who had full service history.and are doing the job for no cost,Injectors and Wire Looms.

    Thanks again..
    #32
  34. Jambo26
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    Jambo26 Member

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    [Aug 13, 2012]
    i would double check about the boom, as the guys A4 i fixed contacted audi uk to be told we've never heard of this problem before and dont change injector looms under the recall. but every person ive spoeken to about audi injectors say when repalceing a injector replaced the loom aswell.
    #33
  35. Kohaku
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    Kohaku Member

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    [Aug 15, 2012]
    Car been repaired. All Injectors & Looms replaced.
    #34
  36. monkeynut
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    monkeynut Member

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    [Aug 17, 2012]
    Was waiting a while to see how car would behave after a few weeks rather than just think it's cured after one day of being good!! Have had car back a few weeks now and all seems well, hasn't done the kangaroo thing once. By process of elimination the Master Tech started to look at the EGR as potentially being the culprit. He by-passed the EGR and the kangarooing was then not apparent on a test drive. He took a closer look and found a tiny (very tiny) hole/split in one of the hoses/pipes to the egr. He replaced that (no charge) hose but said that he wouldn't think a tiny split would be causing the problems I was having (incidentally a test drive with him one morning and the car behaved like a dog!) It was left that I should run the car for a a while and get back to them. If the fault returned he said he himself would be contacting Audi UK to say he had exhausted all known viable solutions and that for some reason the EGR did not like the new injectors, then wait for their response. I'm still sceptical as I think something in the EGR/cooler was cleaned or changed when the hose was replaced and it will start playing up again in the future?? I feel this because the car started misbehaving as soon as it came back from the injector recall so why would a tiny hole/split play up with one set of injectors and not another? Anyway, all is well at the moment but we'll see...
    #35
  37. Solz
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    Solz New Member

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    [Aug 17, 2012]
    Hope is stays well. Ive had a full head recon after the injector recall, as i had two burnt valves, took the car to vw as after the head recon the car is smelling and smoking. My local garge thinks its the injectors as his opened the head up after the recon and eerythng seems fine. Went to vw told them weve had a head recon and car is smoking they simply turned around and said we reckon your head is cracked, will charge you to check it aswell even though the car is driving spot on no missfire no hesisation and power is there. So took the car off them and gave it to a diesel specailist and he pressure tested and head is fine.
    whats interesting is that the injector in my car are siemens and these were meant to be changed in the recall for Bosch injectors, so how come ive still got siemens injectors in the car, strange.
    Going back to VW with a report from the diesel specailist.
    #36
  38. NHN
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    NHN Retrofitter - Audi - VW - Skoda - Seat Site Sponsor VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 18, 2012]
    This is something thats annoying me, so many people with same issues after recall & they go back & vag charge for it, I mean you couldnt even make this up.
    #37
  39. Soot1
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    Soot1 Member

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    [Aug 20, 2012]
    Rule No. 1 mate, Don't sell your car to another family member, everything that goes wrong is your fault, been there, done that etc.

    Also I'm looking for a A3 TDI and all this injector recall has put me off the 170 models, so will stick to the 140 search and remove the EGR and DPF systems. I do sincerely hope you all have your cars sorted out soon. VAG should have stuck to 1.9PD engines of which I've had a couple in the past, weren't they wonderfully efficient and durable? I guess Euro emissions have them outlawed now.
    #38
  40. mike foster
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    mike foster Fossie VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 20, 2012]
    The 140 (BKD) engine does not have a DPF unless the previous owner/s had one fitted !
    #39
  41. Jambo26
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    Jambo26 Member

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    [Aug 20, 2012]
    why would you a a part fitting to your car thats costs a fortune and causes nothing but trouble.
    #40

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