Audi S3 (8L) Race-Car Project

George 8L said:
8L

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Hello, All!

I begin this post with ambition to transform my 2002 s3 (BAM engine) to a fully fledged, track day/weekend racing monster.

As with many of you guys, the love for the s3 8L is in abundance and I had to think long and hard before I could conclude that race-car was to be her destiny.

With that decision made, which came with influence of the fact I will be studying a BSc in Motorsport Engineering, I aim to incorporate my studies around the project. Best of both worlds, right?

So, through my time studying over the next 3 maybe 4 years, I plan to keep you guys updated and also hope to gain invaluable knowledge from you clever guys in the Audi community.

Here is a picture as she stands on the drive.

Totally original and well loved... (I originally planned to keep her standard and clean for resale and originality reasons)... But, Race-Car...

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I guess I'll start with a question, as I'm sure if I simply ask "how do I make it race-car" I'll surely seem dim and I'd like to hear a broader spectrum of opinion and debate, with various aspects of race preping the s3.

My first question is Weight Reduction....

Clearly I don't plan to add slim fast shakes to the fuel... But generally what would be my limits with weight reduction, where is a good place to start and what considerations should I take into account when putting her on a diet?

Many thanks, all opinions and advice are welcome :)

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superkarl said:
Incredible work mate. Truly inspirational. I love your out of the box thinking here.
You can win any race with an invisible car!
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Hi superkarl, are you having trouble seeing images?

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No mate it was just a sarcastic reply to your first post which was basically blank.

Looks a nice car. Did you buy it in that colour? It's had a respray.

With regards to building a race car, what kind? Also you're limited by your imagination and wallet really. Plenty of threads on here to read so check out the stickies at the top of the forum.

Where are you planning on doing your degree?
 
what a lovely colour, is it a kind of green? - I am coloured blind.

can't you get a 2K shed and turn that into a race car rather than a clean example of a future classic?
 
superkarl said:
No mate it was just a sarcastic reply to your first post which was basically blank.

Looks a nice car. Did you buy it in that colour? It's had a respray.

With regards to building a race car, what kind? Also you're limited by your imagination and wallet really. Plenty of threads on here to read so check out the stickies at the top of the forum.

Where are you planning on doing your degree?
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Haha sorry dude, yeh bought her in that colour. i beleive its dolphin grey (gloss)... or so ive been told.

I've had a shop about and found a series called 'MSVT Track Day Trophy' http://www.trackdaytrophy.co.uk/ which cater more for novice and amateur racers, like myself.

The class i would intend to participate is class B which i believe the max. power requirement is 175bhp/Tonne (including driver) but actual engine bhp is, at the moment, somewhat a mystery. I was thinking in the 300-350bhp range which im sure the engine internals are capable of.

I will be studying at Kingston University, London.
 
Stuart B said:
what a lovely colour, is it a kind of green? - I am coloured blind.

can't you get a 2K shed and turn that into a race car rather than a clean example of a future classic?
Click to expand...

Hey Stuart.

Yeah i fully understand your angle. This was the major factor affecting my decision to turn her race-car.
I did think for a long while that i wanted to keep her original and obviously intend her to be a classic. Though the circumstances i have been given aren't massively in my favor, i saw an opportunity to do this project along side my uni course. This is also a reason why i have become more involved with Audi-sport.net as i know i can get good dependable advice from real people that know the cars well. I hope to gain knowledge and advice and count it as research and development.

Though i would love to keep her original, ideally i would need 3 of them to be happy. one original, one race car and one show car. But i am a broke soon to be student, so i'm doing what i can for now :)

And i believe it is gloss dolphin grey.
 
If your wanting to make a reliable race car then internals would need uprating
 
There are some excellent threads where people have turned their A3s into Track Cars - the underlying advice is that the engine internals are not capable of 300-350 the rods bend and come out the block.

If you are broke then where are you going to get the 4K to maintain and modify your car?

It will be a sad day when you remove the carpets, seats and dash - I expect the sunroof will go too - that is another 250grammes you oould save.
 
Tj 0785 said:
If your wanting to make a reliable race car then internals would need uprating
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Hi, Tj.

Do you not think the standard internals will suffice under 300-350bhp? I've read that the pistons are the weakest link with the internals but should be fine if they aren't abused. I will be at uni soon with little resources for major upgrades such as internals.
 
I wouldn't risk it, people tend to advise changing them in anything above stage two as Stuart has said around 300-350 they tend to go although it's the torque that effects the rods not bhp but there's no point building a track car with weak points in the engine.id rather start with a solid engine as a good base then doing other mods
 
Stuart B said:
There are some excellent threads where people have turned their A3s into Track Cars - the underlying advice is that the engine internals are not capable of 300-350 the rods bend and come out the block.

If you are broke then where are you going to get the 4K to maintain and modify your car?

It will be a sad day when you remove the carpets, seats and dash - I expect the sunroof will go too - that is another 250grammes you oould save.
Click to expand...

I will have facilities at uni for engine building etc, so it may be something i can delve into after initial weight reductions etc. As for funding i have a few idea's but that is irrelevant as right now i'm just seeking advice, and if any cheap methods crop up that sound good, i'm game. This is somewhat an experiment i suppose.

Yeh i do feel as though ill be killing a unicorn but ill be fulfilling a childhood dream as well as putting my all into this project.
 
Thanks for the threads i shall have a good look.

Yes, perhaps i have over estimated the capabilities of the engine internals.
 
Most of the track day conversions on here buy £200 A3s and make them into 290+ monsters.

I have an S3 but the general opinion is they carry around a 30 stone haldex and associated components, which does very little on the track apart from make it slower.
 
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what turbo are you planning to use as a standard ko4 won't get you that bhp there's a few hybrids (bbt, aet, tte) ones about that will get you that and more if everything else is up to scratch
 
I just wished George never posted those pictures of his beautiful standard S3. They are for Sundays, repairing and admiring their pretty rears when they're not on axle stands - not for drilling and cutting.

:nogarors4::blackrs4::greyrs4::redrs4::yellowrs4:
 
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Stuart B said:
Most of the track day conversions on here buy £200 A3s and make them into 290+ monsters.

I have an S3 but the general opinion is they carry around a 30 stone haldex and associated components, which does very little on the track apart from make it slower.
Click to expand...

What is Haldex?? are you saying weight reduction wont gain me anything on the track? ... am i being dim? lol
 
du
Stuart B said:
I just wished George never posted those pictures of his beautiful standard S3. They are for Sundays, repairing and admiring their pretty rears when they're not on axle stands - not for drilling and cutting.

:nogarors4::blackrs4::greyrs4::redrs4::yellowrs4:
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Dude you're making me feel so bad right now :grumpy:

There is still time to maybe rethink, as the amount of planning i intend on doing will take a good while and i also aim to take the first major steps with mods in 2nd year of uni.
 
Tj 0785 said:
what turbo are you planning to use as a standard ko4 won't get you that bhp there's a few hybrids (bbt, aet, tte) ones about that will get you that and more if everything else is up to scratch
Click to expand...

At the moment this is still a mystery, though i do plan on garrett. I have read their three different pdf's on their turbos and this want to do the math behind it all for my course. I will use their equations to try and find the perfect scenario. Obviously still very early days which is why i'm looking more at weight reduction initially so i can then decide on a suitable power output against the weight of the car so that it meets regulations (175bhp/tonne).
 
Haldex is the 4wd system it adds around 300kg over a Fwd 1.8t
 
Tj 0785 said:
Haldex is the 4wd system it adds around 300kg over a Fwd 1.8t
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Oh i see, wow, thats alot of f'ing weight! though striping the car out is a must regardless of the haldex system right? what are my limits with inerior. is taking the dash out advisable? air-con, ventilation? i guess a better question would be, what should i keep?
 
You would only need to go stage 2 to reach 175hp/tonne.
 
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Stuart B said:
okay you keep your car - this one has been looked after.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2002-Audi-S3-1-8-Quattro-3dr-/162201538741

this one has too - but many miles (but you will be changing everything and the Noggy is the quickest version)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audi-S3-1-8-225bhp-2002-Quattro-/301994170891

my god - I got an awful car for myself.

good luck with your project - someone on here created his own wiring loom.
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I see what your saying, perhaps if i come across an extra couple grand id seriously consider buying one with higher mileage. I'm gob smacked how much the first one was going for :O though mine has 60,000miles on the clock so wouldn't get anywhere near that!

Thanks for your help and support :)
 
Pasteurised said:
You would only need to go stage 2 to reach 175hp/tonne.
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Does that take into account weight reduction? the s3 is 1420kg off the assembly line, plus me 70kg = 1490kg.
What can i predict ill loose through weight reduction? if i go all out that is?
 
George 8L said:
Does that take into account weight reduction? the s3 is 1420kg off the assembly line, plus me 70kg = 1490kg.
What can i predict ill loose through weight reduction? if i go all out that is?
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I dont plan to go on a diet either :)
 
You will need to get the car on a weigh bridge to get the exact weight with fluids etc.
280bhp at 1500kg = 186bhp at 1000kg
 
Pasteurised said:
You will need to get the car on a weigh bridge to get the exact weight with fluids etc.
280bhp at 1500kg = 186bhp at 1000kg
Click to expand...

Thanks i didnt take fluids into account! So if i can save say, 400kg, that should put me in the Bhp/tonne limit comfortably.... is that a realistic weight save, 400kg?
 
George 8L said:
Thanks i didnt take fluids into account! So if i can save say, 400kg, that should put me in the Bhp/tonne limit comfortably.... is that a realistic weight save, 400kg?
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If i manage to get a reduction down to 1300kg as rollcage and safety equipment will add some weight back. (just as a guide)

If do bhp/metric tonne - 225/1.3=173.08

So the racing series i'm looking at caters for class B at 175bhp per tonne.

1300kg seems a more realistic number so after weight reduction i suppose i'm really not far off?
 
Awesome, cheers for the thread :) I've read one page so far... That took me 20 mins alone... The next 120 should be interesting :))

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Tj 0785 said:
Haldex is the 4wd system it adds around 300kg over a Fwd 1.8t
Click to expand...

300kg is the weight of Haldex, eh? Quick search of the world wide web of lies indicates a FWD A3 1.8T at around 1200kgs, whereas an S3 is about 1420kg.

You're forgetting the independent rear suspension, too... Haldex system in its entirety is 80kg or so IIRC, not more. The 220kg difference is definitely not the "4wd system that adds 300kg to the car".

Anyway, OP... I think 1300kg is reasonable, but you'll be removing most of everything you can. Keep your dash and HVAC (trust me on this. That last 10-15kgs won't be the end of you but you will regret it in summer/winter if you remove). Lightweight seats alone should shave ~30kgs from the car. Check the threads available, plenty of info there on how much things weigh and how much power different recipes will make, along with which coilovers are best for daily use, race use, and a compromise of both. And of course, bushings.
 
There is a weight reduction thread on the TT forum where a guy went to extremes and conveniently documented it all every step of the way. I can't remember the final figure but it was certainly less than 1300kg
 
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