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Audi A3 2.0tfsi (57) Engine Idle Judder

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Sharkie1976, Aug 20, 2014.

  1. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 20, 2014]
    Good morning all.
    This is my first post as a new member and was hoping the brains of this forum will be able to help me out.
    I understand from reading posts over the last month or so that this idle engine judder is a common topic. I have however never seen a definitive answer/cure to this problem.
    Thanks in advance....I know someone here can help as you seem to know almost every cure for every problem.
    My story is as follows.....

    My car: Audi A3 2.0Tfsi (57 plate).
    Engine Type: BWA.
    Symptoms: Well here we go........
    .......Since buying the car 4 months ago, it has become to my attention that it is suffering from what I would describe as a slight engine judder (at idle only). Revs don't move in any erratic way, but they do move ever so slightly on occassions. When sat stationary I feel this little judder in the cabin of the car. The engine seems to wobble when looking under the bonnet. When driving the car it is smooth, seems very quick and how it should be.
    I have so far.......
    Changed spark plugs (NGK Platinum), cleaned the coils out as there was black deposits on all of the gold plates that touch the spark plugs.....went for a spin, sat idle and seemed ok......then returned after next journey.
    Checked air filter (was dirty), but ran engine without filter inside the top cover to eliminate air flow blockage.......no change.
    Check all visible air hoses for splits, sprayed them too with carb cleaner.....no change in idle note or revs.
    Checked N80 purge valve is functioning properly (I can hear it clicking away).
    I understand the PCV valve is faulty if the idle raises and lower erratically, and oil would be found around filler cap.....and there is not. Also on a visual, engine off and PCV is closed.

    Problems I have encountered during ownership are as follows.....
    Engine coolant sensor message on Display (just overfilled it by 1cm and no message for 2 months).
    Had friend look at engine wobbling and he removed Oil filler cap whilst running (engine struggled but continued to run).
    Had friend scan engine after and it had codes P0441 (Evap system), P3137 & P3138 (V157???)
    Not sure if with him removing the oil cap it disrupted the engine vaccum of not and threw these codes.

    I'm sorry for such a long post. I thought I'd be thorough and give all the details the best I could.

    So.......get those brains working people..!
    Can anyone help me solve this judder.??

    Many many many thanks.
    Rob
    #1
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  3. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 20, 2014]
    Sorry. Also like to add........lol.
    No EML on (codes were just stored).
    Car doesn't fire up every time. Like this morning, it was chilly....brrrrrrr (2nd time fine tho).
    #2
  4. wuta3
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    wuta3 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 20, 2014]
    My BWA sounds like a chugging diesel on idle, I think it's fairly normal with 2.0Ts. It really depends how much, I certainly feel it in the cabin.
    #3
  5. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 20, 2014]
    Lol wuta3. Yeah I know what you mean. Mine doesn't sound bad (direct injection makes all of these loud/tappety I believe). Just can't stand this judderring. It seems so common, but no one seems to be able to fix it. Surely someone must have found a solution. All I see is DMF, Engine mounts, gearbox mounts, every other mount, software update with Audi, PCV, N80, Plugs, Filter, Injectors, timing, coil packs, coil pack loom...........the list is never ending.!! hahaha. Any master technicians around here that actually may hold the answer???
    Thanks for replying to the post mate.
    #4
  6. TFSIer
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    TFSIer New Member

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    [Aug 20, 2014]
    Welcome aboard. Sorry to here of the problem but thought there were a few threads on here discussing p3137/8 codes that got to the bottom of it ?
    #5
  7. Madpete
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    Madpete Member

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    [Aug 20, 2014]
    I think I get this too sometimes, does it feel like a heartbeat through the cabin? Doesn't do it all the time, just every now and then when first switched on from cold at idle... car runs great though. I've got the 2010 2.0 tsi CCZA engine, so maybe it's common to all of them?
    #6
  8. Artimus
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    Artimus Short Back

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Just to scotch any potential rumour before it gets up a head is steam: mine is a 2009 CCZA with nearly 49000 miles and doesn't judder at all, so that rules out an inherent engine problem.

    Are you guys driving Manual gearboxes? Just wondering if it might be a dragging clutch plate.
    #7
  9. Imteyaz
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    Imteyaz 6th Gear

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Could this be down to dirty inlet valves / inlet flaps? Looking at some recent posts it would suggest that the carbon build up here could reduce the inlet volume up to 30%. I have the same issue, only noticeable when up to temperature and then you can just feel a little "flutter" on idle.

    I have replaced the PCV and VCDS reports no issues. Recent service with new plugs made no difference either so I think I may go with the "walnut shell blast" cleaning route when funds allow (Awesome / AKS offer this service for those interested).
    #8
  10. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Hi guys. Thanks for all your helpful posts. TFSIer, I have looked into the reasons for the P codes and know its releated to the EVAP system. I checked out various parts and hoses to and from the cannister/purge valve and all check out as good. As mentioned, this may just be a code due to my friend removing the oil cap whilst running (causing vaccum pressure or similar). I am yet to do a re-scan since these codes were cleared, but am sheduling a re-scan on Sat 30th. I will however look into the P code posts you suggested incase there is something I haven't picked up on yet. Thanks for your help.
    Thanks Madpete, appreciate your input also. Isn't it annoying???? Mine does it most, if not all of the time. Regardless if the engine has just been fired up, or if it's warm/hot. If I happen to get to the bottome of this I WILL keep this thread upto date.!
    On Sat 30th Sept, I am going to run through all possibilites with my friend. Going to re-scan for codes, check the timing isn't out slightly, check the mounts above and below engine/gearbox/bushes etc. Does anyone know what results I SHOULD get by testing the injectors (i.e. what the pressures/tollerance???) should be showing???
    Artimus, thanks for your post too......you are a lucky man! You will have teeth for far longer than us sufferers will, lol. Lots of people have this issue/problem, and like you, some don't. For the record, my car is a manual, the clutch doesn't affect the judder at all, and gear shift is pleasant. It could be dragging clutch plate. I will hope to get this looked at too, depending on how difficult it is to check.

    Until next time folks.! Will keep you updated. Any further info, please share.
    Thanks to all.
    Rob
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  11. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Very interesting opinion Imteyaz. I've read about carbon build up before, and an intake build up could pose a threat.
    I'll be interested to see what results you get from your 'walnut shell blast' gives, lol. Is that like the thing Ed China advertises??
    Please keep me updated mate, would be great to see what happens.
    Many thanks for the post!!! ;O)
    Rob.
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  12. Jet2004uk
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    Jet2004uk Active Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    No problem with my 2010 TFSI, quiet as a mouse (am I lucky lol)
    #11
  13. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Thats just rubbing salt into a gaping wound Jet2004uk. Is yours a BWA engine or one thats mentioned above?? (just curious).
    #12
  14. Jet2004uk
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    Jet2004uk Active Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    No rubbing intended
    #13
  15. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    No worries. I wasn't intending to be blunt with that, lol.
    #14
  16. Jet2004uk
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    Jet2004uk Active Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    I didnt tell you my engine type because I dont know, I am not very mechanically minded lol I put petrol in and press the pedal
    #15
  17. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Are you a chick.? lol
    #16
  18. Jet2004uk
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    Jet2004uk Active Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    lol last time I checked no, I like my car its the best one I have had so far, when I had it mapped it was soooo much fun to drive and still is but it aint the number one priority in my life (ready for backlash) lol just for you Sharkie1976 I will get the book out and see what type of engine it is :)
    #17
  19. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Hahahahahhaa.! Yeah I love mine too. Not had it mapped, but I can imagine how much more poke it has.! My wife calls my car the new girlfriend (shhhhhhh sh's right, lol). I don't think they did a BWA in your year, but maybe it is. Good solid engines, apart from the wobbles ;)
    #18
  20. Jet2004uk
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    Jet2004uk Active Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Its my first Audi and my best toy lol
    #19
  21. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Likewise my friend!
    #20
  22. Jet2004uk
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    Jet2004uk Active Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    Ohhhh Sharkie my engine is type CCZA :)
    #21
  23. Madpete
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    Madpete Member

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    [Aug 21, 2014]
    I had also considered that it could be carbon build up related with mine, a carbon clean is on my list of things to have done when I have the spare cash. Be interesting to see what, if any difference it makes. I've got 55k on the clock now, so it could be pretty mucky in there!
    #22
  24. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 22, 2014]
    Lets hope your car runs well for a long time Jet2004uk.
    #23
  25. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 22, 2014]
    Yeah, I read up on the carbon cleaning Madpete. It seems a bit hit and miss really. Yes, it may lower your emmisions is they are a problem, but it may also highlight things that are worn/on ther way out. Let me know how you get on mate.
    Like I said......I'm doing a full investigation into the timing etc etc next weekend 30th). So i'll let you know what I find out dude.!
    #24
  26. Jet2004uk
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    Jet2004uk Active Member

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    [Aug 22, 2014]
    Hope you get it sorted mate
    #25
  27. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 26, 2014]
    Thanks Jet2004uk. Looking forward to having a good look around the motor on Saturday. I'll keep you updated on any developments.
    Cheers!!!
    #26
  28. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Aug 26, 2014]
    I don't think the coking causes much if any unevenness at idle,as mine is probably the worst example of coking on these forums,and that was never an issue.
    What it does do is to cause a gradual loss of performance as you'd expect,and on mine,cleaning out the inlets easily improved top end power,again as you'd expect.

    BTW,for Sharkie1976,walnut blasting the inlets isn't the thing that Ed China etc advertise.....thats a proprietary cleaning product injected into the inlets.
    #27
  29. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 26, 2014]
    Hi S3Alex. Thanks very much for your post. Every little helps and its really appreciated. Not sure how much you do know, but can the V157 Valve (Diverter Valve) cause wobble at idle?? It showed up on my initial diagnostics check, and it stated to carry out basic settings on it (which I assume checks if it's opening/closing properly). If this was to be faulty, then do you know what symptoms a faulty one would show. I'm due to run diagnostics on it again this Saturday to see if it is showing that fault code again (P3137/3138).

    Thanks again mate,
    Rob.
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  30. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    I'd be making a guess at this,but if it's leaking,it may be possible,although the PCV is one of the most likely causes of uneven idling.
    #29
  31. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    Hi again S3Alex. I did think the same about the PCV. But I was under the impression that it would be causing a fluctuating idle needle (mine stays pretty steady), and that it would spew oil around the Oil Cap if it were that. It may be worth a try tho just to eliminate as its not particularly expensive. Cheers for your guidance once again.
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  32. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 28, 2014]
    So......a little update and an additional query.
    Got a new PCV and gasket, hasn't made any difference at all :(

    Whilst revving the engine up a bit, I notice that there is a popping sound from the exhaust when pedal is released. I wanted to look under the car so got the wife to rev the engine up a few times. When inspecting the rear it sounds like exhaust fumes are exiting the exhaust, then it sounds like the exhaust is sucking air back in. Do you think this is normal? or could it be that as one of my original thoughts is that the timing is slightly out especially on the exhaust cam?

    Any ideas/thoughts anyone???
    #31
  33. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 30, 2014]
    Hi guys.
    As promised, here is an update from our findings today.
    Ran diagnostics, and the P3137 and P3138 have not returned :)
    The other code P0441 evap was there again, but have just cleared it for now.
    Anyway, ran a live data on the car and as regards to the ignition timing section, things seemed a bit suspect. Don't know what the figures I saw meant really, but my friend found this to be strange. It was jumping from a reading of 0.0 to 3.0 on idle. It rose then fell over and over again. Also the knock sensor on cylinder 4 was the only one reading 0 volts on idle. The other 3 were reading 1.25 - 2.50volts. Rev the engine a bit and cylinder 4 did read a voltage. Any ideas on knock sensor voltage???
    We decided to go ahead and checkout the timing. Lined up the bottom crank to TDC, then checked the top of the engine and the exhaust cam was out by half a tooth. Looking at it face on the mark was half a tooth to the left of where it should be.
    It seems to indicate that the tensioner was over tensioned when replaced a few months ago, therefore pulling the exhaust cam half a turn anti-clockwise. What is really annoying is that this car has only had 2 belts before, 1st by Audi and 2nd by a specialist in Medmenham. Neither seem to have done it properly as they have both made their own marks on the lower pulley and not aligned it correctly with the ACTUAL TDC MARK!!! This is so lazy of them both and is very unprofessional. Along with the fact that the specialists didn't fit the timing belt cover properly and there has been rubbing, as cover is worn and fresh debris was found around the belt area and pulleys.
    Ran out of time to rectify today, as the engine mount needs to be removed to get access to the tensioner, so we are going to do this next Saturday now.
    The tensioner pulley should be aligned with specific marks too, but my money is on that it's wrong and over tensioned.
    Going to fit a new belt incase this one is damaged and stretched now.
    Will keep you updated next week.
    Take care for now! :audibash::audibash:
    Rob.
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  34. Artimus
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    Artimus Short Back

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    [Aug 30, 2014]
    Thanks for the update Sharkie, it'll be interesting to know if the timing adjustment solves this issue.
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  35. Madpete
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    Madpete Member

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    [Aug 31, 2014]
    Watching this thread with interest....
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  36. rubixcube101
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    rubixcube101 New Member

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    [Aug 31, 2014]
    Hi Guys, I actually have a MKV GTI but I believe my experience may be of value to some as it has the same 2.0 TFSI engine. I too have the exact same engine judder that only occurs at idle. The rpm's however remain relatively consistent.

    Point of interest:
    I have recently done a carbon clean in the last 10000km's and ultrasonically cleaned the injectors, replaced the spark plugs and coils. Whilst this made a slight improvement to the overall running of the engine it didn't fix the engine judders. Thus ruling out carbon build-up and injectors as the source of the issue.

    As a result I have a suspicion that it might be due to something in the EVAP system as i do have a fault that reoccurs (incorrect flow) after clearing it and 100kms of driving, but I'm not entirely certain. If i had to guess its either the carbon canister or the pressure limiting valve.100% sure its not anything to do with the N80 valve as i have checked this by blowing through it whilst running an output test.This is the error below:

    001089 - EVAP Emission Control Sys
    P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - Intermittent

    Something else to add is whilst doing the carbon clean i found that one of the guide pins were broken one of the intake manifold flaps. My however has only recently thrown up a P3137 error, but the details were quite strange and I am still yet to double check whether it has re-occurred.

    012599 - Intake Manifold Runner Control
    P3137 - 001 - Basic Setting not Completed - Intermittent
    Freeze Frame:
    Fault Status: 00100001
    Fault Priority: 0
    Fault Frequency: 1
    Reset counter: 255
    Mileage: 0 km
    Time Indication: 0
    Freeze Frame:
    RPM: 151 /min
    Load: 100.0 %
    Speed: 0.0 km/h
    Temperature: 72.0°C
    Temperature: 59.0°C
    Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
    Voltage: 9.906 V
    Readiness: 0000 0000

    I'd be interested to do some VCDS logging and check some of the readings. Any advice on what basic settings or measuring blocks I should run? I'm quite keen to get rid of the EVAP error and engine juddering once and for all. Thanks.

    EDIT: The judders occured also before and after changing to a revision D diverter valve
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  37. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 31, 2014]
    Hi guys. I'm looking forward to next Saturday to see if the timing is in fact causing the judder. I imagine it can only help the matter. I will of course keep you updated. I do know that after reading hundreds of web pages, some people have found timing slightly out and getting it spot on fixed there judder.

    Thanks for the post rubixcube. I see you have the same symptoms, including the P0441 evap fault code. Not sure if the cannister needs replacing on both of ours. I wish I'd bought that now instead of PCV Valve, lol. I don't want to go down that route until I have sorted the timing out first. You posted some interesting comments, so thank you for that. One day we will get to the bottom of this.
    If you decide to go down the route of replacing the cannister, please let me know if it keeps the P0441 code away.
    I haven't check the intake flaps on mine yet, but hear that these are a reasonably common issue. Those codes have gone since my last scan, so hope they don't come back. It's difficult to tell tho as no MIL light comes on, and I don't want to keep pestering my mate to keep scanning my car, hehehe.
    Cheers for confirming the Diverter Valve did nothing to help. That's another tick off the list.
    Thanks again.
    #36
  38. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Aug 31, 2014]
    Fingers and toes crossed here :icon thumright:
    #37
  39. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Sep 8, 2014]
    Hi guys. Sorry for the delay about this post. It's been a long road and I'll explain with a shorter version, so you don't get bored.
    Basically....it was found that the timing belt was indeed one tooth out. I bought a new belt and crank pulley bolts (as they were not replaced before as they should have been). We stripped down the engine to get access to the timing belt (a right pain in the ass to get the engine mount out of the way).
    We were just intending to replace the belt, time it up properly and put it back together again. Until we got access to the Timing belt tensioner.......oh deary me.!......the tensioner was not located in the round hole in the engine and was being held out of place against one of the plastic plates attached to the engine. Can you believe it??? A so called respectable specialist didn't fit it properly. That's why the belt came off so easy, there was hardly any tension there. I'll call that a dodged bullet. I'm so lucky that we checked this, as the only thing holding the belt on was the timing belt cover. Anyway, after cursing for some time, and also finding play in the rollers, I had to go and buy a full timing belt kit (literally just for the rollers).
    So, we got it all done, timed up correctly....all back together and seems to purrrr much better.
    As for the idle judder, I was hoping that this would no longer exist, but although it is much better, it is still there. I'm not too displeased as this juddering problem has led me to another major problem (above), which if hadn't had been resolved, I'd be looking at a knackered engine.
    The specialist who did the work previously, refuses to refund me any of my losses I have incurred. As he says I should have taken it to him. As it was Sunday, there was no chance for me to get it there. Plus it was a ticking time bomb and un-road worthy.
    When we connected it up to the computer, way down the list I was noticing it saying there was a mis-fire, but very intermittent. I'm now thinking of coil packs. At £42 each i don't really want to buy all 4 at the moment. I may buy one and try it in each cylinder for a couple of days. What do u think guys...??
    Thanks for reading.
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  40. Madpete
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    Madpete Member

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    [Sep 8, 2014]
    Interesting, and frightening. Btw, awesome gti do a pack of 4 original coil packs for £77.
    #39
  41. Sharkie1976
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    Sharkie1976 Member

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    [Sep 9, 2014]
    Yes Madpete, your right there mate. It wad a bit frightening. Thanks for the info, I'll check those could out mate. Have u used them yourself? Are they any good?
    #40

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