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Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by h5djr, Jan 9, 2008.
Loving the facts & figures Bowfer. I don't feel so gutted anymore =)
I feel the point has been lost. The figures may well indicate that the 2.0 diesel is a more powerful car but I feel that the new 1.4TFSi is a more refined drive having tried both cars.
There are some things that I just don't like in the automotive world and one of them is the insidious clatter of a diesel engine no matter how quiet it is in the cabin. I like my associates to see me before they hear me.
I am of the opinion that these types of engines (small yet powerful and refined) may well be the way ahead.
Regarrdless of price I would select the smaller petrol unit (the 1.4) over the 1.9 diesel and I would certainly take my car in favour of the 2.0 diesel but then that's just a big hairy hun's opinion.
Don't let a load of figures lead you into buying a diesel. The real thing often tells a different story...
Cheers for the positive comments on the 1.4TFSI. 125Hp 200Nm.
Working with power units in the truck industry for the last 35 years we were using 400 hp @ 32 tons 20 years ago and today we are using 440 hp @ 44 tons, so the hp has not changed a great deal but the increase in torque is the important bit we are now putting out up to 2500 Nm @ 1000 Rpm through to 1500 Rpm.
Everybody talks horsepower and as useful as hp is at times TORQUE is the important one.
2.0 TDI has more torque over a shorter rev band.
1.4 TFSI has less torque but over a much wider rev band.
As the emissions hit euro5 / euro6 etc it will be easier for manufacturers to clean a small displacement engine than a larger one. In the future look for the arrival of more and more small displacement engines.
Trucks 20 years ago = 14 litre engines.
Trucks today = 10/11 litre engines
You're arguing against the 1.4TFSI there though.
If torque is your god, then the diesel is the way to go.
It may put it's torque out over a shorter rev range, but this is counteracted the fact it can pull taller gearing, so your road speed isn't actually compromised at all.
So although the 140tdi only really pulls between 1800rpm and 4000rpm, it's road speed within a given gear will still be very wide.
Third, for example, will take you from under 20mph to just over 60mph.
Fourth, off the top of my head, can be selected from just over 20mph to nearly 80mph.
(that's the DSG, the manual goes even further).
Even if the 1.4TFSI puts it torque out over a greater rev range, I bet you'd have to change gear more than in the Tdi.
Look at the in-gear acceleration figure for each car, and I bet the Tdi whips it (if you can find any).
I mean the likes of 30-50mph, 50-70mph etc.
The 2.0 diesel is being compared with the 1.4 petrol.
Try the 2.0t with the 2.0 diesel. You will then find it a very different result.
And of course as someone said before, if refinement or performance is top of your list and mpg less so, why on earth would you go for a diesel?
Quite simply, you wouldn't.
I'm not knocking the 2.0 TDI its a cracking engine i drive one on a regular basis in a VW.
I work with modern diesels like Cummins, MAN D20 and D26 Common Rails every day and know just how diesels have come on over the years.
A 1.4 TFSI will not out perform a 2.0 TDI but i bet its not a million miles away.
My local dealer loaned me 2.0TFSI Quattro Sportback whilst mine was having work done and that thing would get the better of a 2.0 TDI
its an awesome engine.
I only run about 8K a year so the diesel would hardly return the initial outlay for me but i cannot warrant the 19 MPG i averaged with the 2.0 TFSI if the 1.4 TFSI gets me 40 MPG on a run i will be a happy bunny.
Yeah, but that's not the point.
My colleague's 1.6 Honda Civic sport isn't that much slower than my Tdi, but he has to work the car a lot harder to do it, and he uses more fuel in the process.
My point is that anyone spending the dosh on a brand new 1.4TFSI would do well to check out discounted, or nearly new, Tdi's.
Unless they're one of those that simply hate diesels because they sound a bit noisy at tickover...
But if only they were a 'bit' noisy at tickover.
The Audi 2.0 Diesel can be described in a lot of ways, but I am sure no one would describe it as a 'bit' noisy.
I think it is quite strange that the loudest diesels I have heard come from Audi, BMW and Mercedes. My E class is very noisy and the 3 series diesel I had before that sounded like a tractor about to break down! I have not had much experience of an Audi diesel but from reading on this forum they are noisier than average.
I briefly owned a 2.0 TDI 140 (for about 3 months) before getting my 2.0T, and used to find the torque characteristic very annoying.
It was like an on-off switch at 2000rpm - nothing below, then a cliff-face of torque. I found I was changing gear far more often than I do in my 2.0T, which although lower in torque than the TDI, has a much wider useful rev band. For example, if I turn into a side street in my 2.0T in 3rd gear, it will pull away strongly from just 1000rpm. Do the same thing in the TDI, and you wait forever for the revs to pick up, or you have to change down.
And of course, there is the refinement factor, which is like chalk and cheese !
Obviously, the 1.4T will be slower overall, but I suspect has similar characteristics to the 2.0T.
The Audi isn't the quietest at tickover, with others (BMW/Honda/Ford/Renault) being a good bit quieter.
But still, it's a really petty thing to have you reaching for the petrol order form, given that tickover only plays a small part in your driving time and chances are you'll have a bloody radio/CD/MP3 on anyway.
I'll take a noisy tickover and 550 tank range over a quiet tickover and 300 mile tank range, ta very mooch.
I can do Aberdeen to Manchester in 4.5 hours, without having to stop.
I couldn't do that in many/any petrol cars.
We should try the 170.
According to someone on here, it will happily pull strongly and without any protest from 850rpm...
The phrases "Itchy chin" and "Jimmy Hill" spring to mind...
We all want different things. I want refinement and performance which is why I have changed from diesel to petrol. As I have said before if economy is a big thing for you, then I understand the choice of going for a diesel. I would not want a car where you have to turn the radio on to drown out the noise of the engine. I want my engine to play the music!!!
BTW, if you think the BMW is quieter than an A3.... Oh dear!
I don't think it is, I know it is.
I've heard a D3 and a 170 A4 ticking over, side by side.
The 170 A4 owner was in ordering a BMW, as I was.
BMW is a good bit quieter.
Once you're in the car, it's miles more refined than an A3.
Given that the A3's problem is mostly road noise, the lack of refinement cannot, on this occasion, be attributed to the diesel engine.
I don't know about 'pulling strongly and without any protest from 850rpm...". Mine is quite happy from around 1500-1700rpm but the revs go up so quickly from lower than that. If I take a corner with mine in tip-tronic mode in 4th and the revs drop to less than about 1700 it does not want to pull away very well so I just flick the paddle or centre stick down to 3rd and all is OK. Mostly when approaching a tight corner I go down to 5th whilst approaching and then a down-click of the paddle down to 3rd for the corner itself and away we go.
As far as other noise is concerned, my wife and I can easily hold a conversation at normal speaking level with the car doing almost any speed. The road surface tends to make more difference than anything else. I drove a 320d before I decided on the 170 and I would say it was certainly quieter inside than my 140 but not much in it with the 170.
Have you really test driven an Alpina?
I had one for 2 years, I can tell you the road noise in an A3 is lower and I have the 18" rims.
I will concede there is probably nothing in it in terms of noise levels of the sooty engine though.
Alpina is a fantastic car, but do not expect a Mercedes ride or a Lexus nosie level or you will be disappointed.
yep it will in 2nd gear which was what was discussed in the other topic and I still stand by that as it does! If you dont believe me I'm not that fussed enough to keep arguing my case over it lol.
I would like to know how the 1.4 drives in comparison to larger engines, could be a viable alternative for some! I know its still attached to the same car so you get the same interior etc. as the larger engined models but still cant help but think its all that money for only a 1.4 That said my opinion could change if I drove one
In my car, the road noise is dominant, and the engine is almost inaudible unless you thrash it.
I did notice a big drop in overall noise going from the 2.0TDI 140 to the 2.0T at all speeds however. Also agree on the 170. When I was given one as a loaner, it seemed very similar to my 2.0T for noise.
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Alpina is quieter.
Have you driven a D3?
No offence, but you're the first person I've ever heard say Audi beat BMW for refinement.
I can't think of one single motoring mag that doesn't give the 3 series higher marks for refinement than Audi too.
I swear to god, my wife's Clio (new model) 1.5dci is quieter at motoway speeds than my A3 too.
If you don't believe me, go drive one.
This is why, for a family break to Alton Towers, we took her Clio.
It's hardly a scientific test, I know, but the kids' DVD players didn't need turned up so loud in the Clio.
A simple test, but an effective and important one.
LOL, you are funny!!
Have you driven a D3?
Have you driven a new Clio (a car widely reported for being the most refined small car, ever)?
I'm not lying, both are quieter than my A3 2.0tdi S-line.
Why do you hold the A3 as such a paragon of refinement?
Road noise has been discussed as pretty shocking on here for years now, going back to when the likes of Eeef had an A3.
Especially with the S-line 18" wheels.
I owned a B3 then a D3. I would take the A3 over the D3.
A3 vs. B3, not sure, will need to live longer with my A3. Although my B3 was an auto and that was the worst box I have ever come across. I really should have bought the M3.
Never driven a Clio, that particular desire has passed me by.
I have just come from one of the quietest cars on the road to an A3 s-line. I find the A3 noisier but not excessively so. In fact I would say it perfectly acceptable from a sporty car.
"Why do you hold the A3 as such a paragon of refinement?" I looked through my posts but cannot find where I stated that, but perhaps you can enlighten me?
So you have more experience of Alpinas?
I think you could be making judgement from a position of ignorance?
Nope, I just find it hard to believe.
In your own words, get over it and move on.
Believe, oh I thought you was an expert and you saw it in a road test.
I don't consider myself to be an expert on cars by any means but I WOULD test drive a car before dismissing it completely. I have tested all the models that I have discussed and feel I am entitled to give my opinion. I would choose a 1.4TFSi over one of those diesel things any day of the week pure and simply because I believe it is a better drive and these petrol engines are the way forward for modern motoring. Spec it up as you would with any other car and you have yourself a lovely car with twin exhausts and a lovely sounding engine
With huge expenses being attributed to diesel cars in the near future one would have to be slightly mad to dismiss the concept of a smaller turbo charged petrol unit with a lovely delivery of refinement and pace suitable for any road.
Plus there is that GODAWFUL diesel rattle. I'm sorry but I just couldn't live with that in a car. Give me my 1.8TFSi over a 2.0 Turbo Tractor any time. My father has just bought a BMW 335d Coupe M-Sport and even that pisses me off when I stand outside it. Having said that, it's probably the best example of a diesel car I have ever came across.
Yeah, wot he said!
Very well put sir!
I enjoyed reading this.
Has anybody else tested one of these things yet? Opinions? Brilliant in my opinion.
Good find, problem is now I am even more bemused for the decision to choose diesel over a petrol.
Not much in it in terms of economy and performance yet the 1.4 is obviously much more refined.
And the c02 output is less for the petrol.
Of course I have not driven either so my opinions are not validated by me. But i do know that diesels are not as refined as petrols generally.
The author of that article is making his comparisons with the 1.9Tdi, I note.A positively ancient and pretty bad example of diesel technology.
That must come close to an oxymoron.
When mine goes in for a service I might see if I can have one as the courtesy car if I get a choice in the matter.
Dont think it would deliver the same mix of performance and economy that mine does though but then it would cost less to buy.
I tested the 2.0TDi 140 and the 1.4TFSi on the same day and I came away much more impressed by the 1.4
The refinement and sheer enjoyablity levels were much higher in my opinion in the 1.4
The power was much easier to access and I didn't have to rev the balls off it to gain torque. As soon as I touched the accelerator it wanted to get going. No turbo lag at all and MUCH nicer sounding than the comparative diesel.
To me it seemed like a normally aspirated 2.0FSi
It has 45bhp less, for goodness sake.
I'd be surprised if you thought it was even close to your motor, performancewise.
The 2.0Fsi is one of the most asthmatic engines I've ever driven.
Careful, it i only a second or so slower to 60 than your one lung Alpina!
Just trying to show how well Audi have done in developing these small tubo charged units over the past year or two.
Bowfer, have you actually driven one of these things yet?
Bhp figures do not tell the whole story trust me.