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audi 1.8TQS compound turbo setup options?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by STEALTHQUATTRO, Mar 26, 2013.

  1. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    hi guys I have a 1.8t a3 full forged and running a GT2871
    am changing for something different with no lag and power.
    what turbo's would be suitable to give a good curve?
    maybe GT2554r and GT3576?
    looking for 550hp and acceleration!
    #1
  2. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    Stroke the engine, without steroids you won't get that turbo to spool below 4k !
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  3. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    surly the gt2554 will spool at 2k ish without stroking?
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  4. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    seen as n one seems to have a clue. I justmake it up as I go along! it all works out in the end
    gona use Gt2554r for first Hp turbo
    and Gt2871r for second Lp turbo
    going to modify the jabbasport underslung exhaust manifold to cater an external 44 or 50mm wastegate to Lp turbo.
    weld the Hp turbo rod of the internal wastegate shut.
    external wastegate on the Lp turbo.not thought of yet!
    :rulez::laugh:
    #4
  5. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    i'd use a gtx28, you wont get a 2 k full spool and 500 bhp out of any turbo sadly, but the gtx is as close as it gets
    #5
  6. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    the 2554 will see full boost at 3k at 18psi from what av read. unless in compounds it hinders it?!
    the current 2871 boost at 23 and runs 360hp
    dont the compound multiply the boost so it'l boost at 40psi
    weather full forged setup will like it?! lol
    I dont even know how much boost the 1.8t engine will take.
    #6
  7. Sam_
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    Sam_ Down under

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    Isn't this the 2nd dreaming thread? :)

    This is going to cost you a bomb :)
    #7
  8. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    yea al just keep posting around till someone helps lol. as there ant much info on forums bout compounding.
    it wont cost that much as al do all the fab work myself and then need 2554 turbo, injectors. not sure etd management will
    do it thow! but av got the rest of the supporting mods.
    #8
  9. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    Only way to get a large turbo to spool at 2000 rpm's is if it's VNT like the ones fitted to diesel engines, however petrol lumps run much, much hotter and they don't seem to last well. The only VNT turbo that I know fitted to petrol engines are on the Porsche 911 twin turbo, they employ exotic materials and can withstand high EGT.
    What about the new ball bearings Garrett turbo's, they should spool relatively soon on the rev range...other tan that i would go for a stroker kit, that will give you the necessary torque down low so the car is much more driveable off boost.
    #9
  10. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    No one on here has done this sort of build so help will be limited...

    Can I also ask you to use proper english words rather than abbreviated txt speak and try and paragraph you posts as it makes them very difficult to read currently... this is part of the ASN rules..
    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/34463-use-english-language-please-read.html

    This could be a very interesting build so lets not spoil it by made it to tedious to read..

    Righty... boost is boost... you don't double the boost due to having two turbos... its airflow you gain from the larger turbos regardless of how its used... boost is just a facilitator... std management is probably going to give you more trouble than its worth... its not designed to manage the sort of setup you are looking to do and will be a bugger to map even if it could be... I would suggest a standalone ECU which may also mean you need to convert from DBW to cable throttle... I know DTA do a DBW module and Bill uses this on his Ibiza... you can go MAF less too with standalone more easily.

    It may be best to just use the ECU to worry about fuelling etc and control boost via EBC's... regardless of the turbo setup its still air and fuel... as long as the ECU has that covered then how you get the air in is largely irrelevant..

    Beyond that you are on your own dude... good luck :)

    <tuffty/>
    #10
  11. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    Email car planet racing as they did a compound charged Evo

    They could advise you on the turbo specs.
    #11
  12. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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  13. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    cheers andy I will give them a shot!
    tuffty no problem sorry I was busy bowling and using my phone!
    I know it'l be a challenge and it'l be great to have low end touque ans power!
    I just need a rough idea of hp with both of these tuebo's combined.
    the throttle is electronic not drive by wire at mo.
    I was thinking of 2 turbo speed sensors to help set them up and also help keep an eye on the turbo load
    so do I have to change the whole management or did you say I can
    use something to run along my current ME7? thanks
    #13
  14. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    DBW (drive by wire) 'is' electronic throttle dude...

    Change the management I would imagine... ME7 architecture is not designed for this sort of modification... ME7 doesn't even have actual boost maps... its all load related... at the level this will end up I suspect you will have more luck controlling it via a standalone setup..

    <tuffty/>
    #14
  15. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    is there a management that is suitable that just replaces the ecu and use current sensors?
    #15
  16. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    Most standalone management need new looms

    DTA is a good bet and Bill will tell you about them
    #16
  17. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    Wiring loom is easy enough on a standalone... you use all the existing sensors...

    <tuffty/>
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  18. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    ahh brilliant! whats DTA like?
    I was also looking at emerald and mega squrt
    but what do u do with the rest of the car management lile aircon electronic dash etc?
    #18
  19. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    From what i have seen people use the DTA's as a piggy back ECU which means they keep the std ECU and run the engine on the DTA etc
    #19
  20. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    smashing!! is there any manufacture you can recommend? that takes all the origonal sensors ? thanks
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  21. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    That I don't know?
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  22. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    Man up dude... DTA and Emerald (and any aftermarket ECU for that matter) will use the OE sensors (MAP, Lambda, crank, cam pos etc) but you will need to wire them in... its no use using the OE loom as its not going to be right for the after market stuff and you WILL be chasing issues that will end up being wiring related... DTA is standalone... not piggy back, AEM do piggy back stuff but for other ECU's IIRC... and for the most part they are pretty ****...

    Get a decent aftermarket ECU (DTA S60 for example), do your research and wire it up separately... the project you are undertaking will not be supported by OE ECU so I wouldn't even bother... standalone will run the engine... you just nee to get creative over the boost control for the turbos ONCE you have over come the mechanical engineering aspect of it all...

    Sorry if this seems a little harsh but based on the kinda questions you are asking are you up for this challenge?

    Think about it logically... all an engine needs to do is do something with the air and fuel its being fed... that is ensure there is enough fuel for the amount of air coming in... a DTA S40 ECU will do this all day long... wasted spark and fuel injection (basic stuff) and not even a need to wire in a cam pos sensor....

    The turbo setup will be the tricky part... engineering wise its relatively straight forward once you have worked out how to physically get the gear into the engine bay and connected to the exhaust manifold... the pita bit will be making sure you get the right balance between the turbos (remember if you use the smaller turbo on the exhaust mani this will be the choke point for the overall flow of the engine) and you will need to ba able to control the boost on both turbos... smaller turbo will no doubt be internally gated but the larger one will most likely be externally gated... these will have completely different response characteristics so will need separate controllers... you could use the DTA to control the boost of one of the turbo's but I couldn't tell you which one... most likely the larger one thats feeding the actual engine...

    <tuffty/>
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  23. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    I will do some research. I would like swithable maps to for when i use water meth.
    i have got a blitz duel solenoid boost contorller at the moment that I could use. not using it om me7 as it throws a wobbler!
    mind you some of the std sensors are maxed out easy arnt they?
    I was hopibg to use external wastegate 50mm running on boost pressure and the big turbo
    external wastegate on boost controller.
    #23
  24. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    MAF and MAP sensor are the only ones that will max out... standalone will mean MAF less and use a separate aftermarket 3bar MAP sensor

    <tuffty/>
    #24
  25. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    You could even get rid of the coil packs and run a single coil
    #25
  26. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    Bill runs TFSI coils on his DTA S60... the S40 doesn't have the drivers for 4 coil packs so you will have to use a separate coil pack (I think Bill used a Zetec one before)... have done this on a few cars now..

    <tuffty/>
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  27. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    whatevers the most reliable! al have a look at them all and make a decision on which on. so piggy pack ecu's are not that good? as long as I can uwe all origonal electrionics am happy!
    #27
  28. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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  29. BENJAMIN
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    BENJAMIN Member

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    You can run normal coils on an s40 but you have to fire them semi sequentially.

    I've used a s80 on a 911 running jenvey itb's and 12 spark plugs. Getting the firing order right was tricky. The s80 has so many features.

    S60 and s80 are compatible with the dta dbw controller and use the audi dbw pedal and tb. Don't think they sell this to the general public though as its in its infancy. Does bill run the dbw controller? I have one here and it's a nice bit of kit.
    #29
  30. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    S40 does'nt drive the ign amp cop in my experience..the twin drivers wont support the drive output, and it can only fire 2 of the 4..
    S60's 4 ign outputs run the cop fine, which what I run myself now.

    Was never able to get the S40 to drive the vag coils, early ones nor later ones. I use wasted spark coil pack and leads on S40.

    Are you saying you have got the S40 to work internal amps COP? Curious as to what settings you used, as I could not get S40 to drive 2 of them in wasted spark mode off the pair of ign drivers.

    The S40 will work with the STC dbw throttle unit apparently. I use my development STC since 2008. Its not listed on their website but is sold and available.

    I do like the DTA... Has its quirks with the latest windows OS however, which is a little erksome @ times..
    #30
  31. BENJAMIN
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    BENJAMIN Member

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    Yeah I did a 20v conversion in a mk2 using the agu coils and an s40. Just ran it wasted spark by joining 1&4 and 2&3 trigger wires. It ran **** at first with wot misfires but I put a relay in to give stronger 12v to the coils and the issue resolved.

    ah I didn't know the s40 worked with the stc, I'm currently using an s60 and stc on a customers 16v g60 conversion. Quite a unique project.

    Software works a treat on windows 98! Lol. Think its the chip in the serial/USB converter that my windows 7 doesn't like tbh.
    #31
  32. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    whats the differents and advantags from emerald : m3d. k3 and k6?
    #32
  33. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    you ran the TCI pack on the AGU coils when you did it? We tried AGU ones on the mk1 a while back but the coil drive got hot warning etc..
    DTASwin runs on Win7, but does'nt seem to like 64bit Win7.
    #33
  34. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    anyone got a clue?
    #34
  35. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    #35
  36. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    tuner preference..
    DTA is my preference but I have done Emeralds also... New K6 worth a look. Not compared its spec to my usual DTA personally.

    edit. egt control is nice feature not supported by dta currently..

    You get used to how they structure their control software, DTA vs Emerald, I like a lot of the features of DTA for testing circuits, live mapping Direct in the map table you are in, not the arbitrary "live screen" with the cross hairs... which I dislike personally.

    3 x map swithing is cool.. 2 on DTA's
    #36
  37. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    yea map for miss' s (eco) map for fast road thats spot on!
    I would like to keep the egt as its an extra safety measure.
    but the maf has to go!!
    is the emerald k3 anygood?
    emerald mentioned that they could bur a base map on to start. is it hard to learn to map it yourself? just out of interest?
    #37
  38. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    I looked into mapping my DTA S60 pro years ago, read many book and still can't get my head round it

    Leave it for a pro to do i say
    #38
  39. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    it takes time to learn and experience comes with time..
    dyno, afr gauge, det cans and having a "feel" for whats right from whats not.... which you have have naturally or not.

    K3's ok.. used them as in mapping and wired in... Not my personal favourite as the mapping Live Screen is to me a bit **** not allowing you to view the actual table you are tuning, but some cross hairs arrangement on the live data screen. you get used to it of course, but coming from years of using dta with my dyno box control, DTA is streaks ahead in user friendlyness for me, and I can work across the fuel and ign maps efficiently without having to stare at the pc screen, as dyno box has fuel knob and ign knob and enter button, so I am mapping against the dyno looking at my afr's, torque @ wheels (tractive effort) and listening on the cans at the same time...

    you can try road mapping, but you will find it difficult getting to the cells and staying on fixed load to dial them in.

    Emerald do send out pretty decent startup maps for the platform to dial in.. which is helpfull.

    Injector scaling not my choice with them as its just a 0-255 8bit represented number with relevance to injector micro seconds per bit, so you scale the resolution of the 0-255 to suit the injector sizes you are using, else your fuel adjustment resolution is compromised and potentially too coarse. DTA uses milliseconds as actual units.. so you are on 1:1 units.. Again a preference thing I guess.
    #39
  40. STEALTHQUATTRO
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    STEALTHQUATTRO Member

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    and is the fueling issues is on the k3?
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