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ARBs Help

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by stevehart, Sep 15, 2009.

  1. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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    Hi Guys,

    sorry for this post, as its probably been done to death.

    my car is booked in at 'star' this week to get the arbs uprated.

    However, I dont want to go for the R32 set up as it is essentially the same front/back size difference as the standard S3.

    So im desperately trying to source a 21mm or 22mm front bar to go with the 19mm rear bar.

    Can anyone point me in the right direction as to where i could get one?

    'Balance' has a 'whiteline' 22mm advertised on their site but say they have actually stopped doing them and I cant seem to find anyone else who will do a 21 or 22mm front bar.

    also

    which one would work best with a 19mm rear bar?

    Thanks for any help

    and again, sorry if this is all old repetition

    Steve
     
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  3. Westy

    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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  4. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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    Yeah,

    I have looked on their website and they dont do any front ones of that size

    Cheers though
     
  5. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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    Found one now

    Thanks
     
  6. Westy

    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    share the wealth then mate.
     
  7. voorhees

    voorhees Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator Team Brill Red Black Edition

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    I have R32 ones and don't think they are the same.....maybe mine are different
     
  8. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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    I found a 22mm front bar at Jabbasport, not cheap - £196.43 inc vat and delivery.

    I spoke to the guys at DPM and they were having a meeting today with 'Whiteline' and he thinks they are going to start producing theirs again, but he's not sure when or what size. (apparently they stopped producing their 22mm bar - which was around £134)

    Steve
     
  9. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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    apparently the R32 bars are 23mm front and 19mm back.

    these are much cheaper than getting Neuspeed but the thickness ratio between front and back is the same as the standard S3 set up (19mm front and 15mm back - i think), so i would imagine the same, on the limit, handling i.e, understeer.

    I dont really know about these things and just get that from what ive read on here.

    Steve
     
  10. voorhees

    voorhees Moderator
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  11. emery1990

    emery1990 Active Member

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    how much are these r32 arbs? are they needed with a suspension upgrade or with just the standard setup of my car?
     
  12. voorhees

    voorhees Moderator
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    I had them with the standard set up,pricewise ermm I paid £500 fitted but also had a 007p DV put in as well.

    the Neuspeed are dearer but R32 ones are what I wanted
     
  13. emery1990

    emery1990 Active Member

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    Did it make a big difference, you still got the standard suspension ? I just want to get rid of the annoying understeer.
     
  14. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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    Not sure about that mate, if you check out Ess Three and ChriS3 suspension setup sticky they tell you on there.

    I don't think its recommended without the upgraded suspension but I'm not sure.

    I did get quoted a great price for the R32s about £270 all in (front n back + geometry), but after reading the threads on here and the stickies I decided to pay the extra for the Neuspeed and get the balance perfect.

    Winter up here brings soo much rain and I get out alot in the snow, so its 4 wheel drifting all the way now!
     
  15. emery1990

    emery1990 Active Member

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    are the much dearer? But if the reason that the a3/s3's understeer is because of the arbs, having no rear one ( is this correct), then having some better arbs, thicker etc will decrease the understeer, i thought the suspension would like increase overall ride and turn in and response, not increase/ decrease oversteer/understeer.
     
  16. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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    Check out the stickies at the top of the S3 8L section.

    the S3 does have rear bars, but it is the difference in thickness (ie; stiffness) between the front and rear bars that influences under or over steer.

    the ARBs reduce the role as car corners, keeping in level. Ess Three gives a great description of how they work in conjunction with the rest of the suspension and geometry
     
  17. metricspaces

    metricspaces Member

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    From ready the sticky post http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?t=4594 it seems that changing the ARB's aren't recommended on standard S3 shocks & springs. Is this correct?

    I'd love to have better handling on my S3 (std springs & shocks), but don't have the funds to upgrade the suspension yet. Would changing the ARB's be a bad idea?
     
  18. Westy

    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    MAte I am in the exact same boat. I need my rear ARB done and I was looking at getting the R32 front and back done together but its not recommended on standard shocks, especially 7 year old standard shocks!

    I cant afford to do the entire suspension either at present so I'm sticking with standard suspension parts. The car handles fine for my every day driving as standard and when I go to the ring I just have to will it through the bends :racer:
     
  19. Essflee

    Essflee Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to do my suspension to, but your talking £1500... That could be £1500 towards my new kitchen...:3sadwalk:
     
  20. subby

    subby Member

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    the standard setup is fine for spirited road driving. Lets face it - audi probaly knew what they were doing.

    I wouldnt worry about it unless your taking it on trackdays or driving very fast on-road.
     
  21. metricspaces

    metricspaces Member

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    Darn, guess I'll just have to live with it handling like a bus around corners for the moment :(
     
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  23. Westy

    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    Why would you want a predictable, clinical, perfect handling machine? It takes all the fun out of trying to get round a bend without getting sideways and browning your pants.
     
  24. emery1990

    emery1990 Active Member

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    Because then you might kill yourself lol! Id rather have know what the car can do and not expect any sudden loss of control.
     
  25. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Oh dear...
    The standard set up is woefully inadequate for a car that's supposed to be as capable as the S3. The standard dampers are weak even when new, it understeers like mad, wallows from bump stop to bump stop and has very little front end grip so or feedback, so you have no idea what the front wheels are doing.

    In isolation, after driving complete turds of cars...it may be good.
    But next to some of the competition, it's not even playing the same game.
    ...and this is road driving I'm speaking of, not track driving.

    So, yeah, Audi obvuously knew what they were doing!
    Which is why 'we' have to change the springs, dampers, tie bars, ARBs, wheels & tyres and all the alignment settings to get it to be as good as the competition (Evos, Imprezas etc).

    It may be just fine for taking your Gran to church...but beyond that, it's verging on dangerous!

    Still, if you are happy...good on you! :whistle2:
     
  26. Fuzzy felt

    Fuzzy felt Member

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    Ess, do you have any suggestions to go some way to improve the standard set up on a budget, i must admit i was looking at going down the R32 arb route, but after reading posts saying it shouldn't be done on standard shocks, i don't want to do that. I would love to have a full suspension upgrade, but can't afford it due to moving house .

    Cheers,
     
  27. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    There is no cheap way...
    You can play with tyre pressures, or play with the alignment...but neither will solve the problem of uber-bad dampers!
    They are the key...
    Sort the dampers, and the springs (rate, height etc), ARB choice etc are all fine-tunable after that.

    There really isn't an easy way...
    ARBs, in my view/experience, should not be uprated with weak, worn, standard dampers...dampers first. ARBs as the last step - if you need them.

    Lowered/uprated springs may give a better look and feel better - but they actually make the weak damper problem worse!

    Sorry...no cheap fixes here!
     
  28. emery1990

    emery1990 Active Member

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    Are shocks another name for dampers? as when it says springs and shocks kits.
     
  29. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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    yeah, shocks and dampers are one and the same

    when i purchased my latest S3 the previous owner had put H&R springs on with the standard dampers.

    this, as Ess says, is not recommended

    When i got the car the dampers were completely shot, however, it did still handle and place in the corners much better than my previous car on an unworn standard set up.

    changing the geometry also made a significant difference - reduced the tramlining and sharpened up the turn in.

    if you want to make a cheaper change, do the geo first.
     
  30. emery1990

    emery1990 Active Member

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    isnt having both the frontr and rears parralell the best option.
     
  31. Westy

    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    If budget is an issue like it is for most, including me, i'm guessing its best to get the Springs/shocks out the way first then start on the juicy bits. Arbs, bushes, tie bars.
     
  32. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Shocks are the accepted - and technically incorrect - name for dampers.

    The spring is actually the shock absorber when you hit a bump - the spring compresses, absorbing the bump. The damper controls the rate the spring is allowed to return to it's normal position.

    Springs and dampers are the correct term...so when I hear so called 'specialists' advertising "springs and shocks" then I tend to stay clear as it seems to me they haven't got a clue what they are selling, thus not making them much of a specialist.
     
  33. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Geometry changes help for sure...they will give more grip, better feel etc...as long as the road is smooth. As soon as you hit a bump the standard dampers loose their control and it goes a bit Pete Tong.

    Also, with standard suspension - especially at the front - you can't get enough negative camber on there. Going lower gives you another -0.5 or more of camber...so yes, you can improve things with a 'better' alignment...but it doesn't give the same gains as an alignment with lowered and uprated suspension.

    Tyre pressures also help.
    Try the fronts at the settings for 2 people, no luggage, and the rears up at the setting for 4 people plus luggage.
    That should aid turn-in.
     
  34. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Can be...
    I prefer a bit of toe out at the front as it makes the normally numb steering a bit more alive and gives me more confidence.

    Much of toe changes is about confidence rather than quantifiable gains in grip...if it feels right, you'll drive it harder.

    Camber - specifically front negative camber - offers much more of a gain.
     
  35. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Springs and dampers first...but with them you MUST add the adjustable rear tie bars or you are wasting the benefits of the dampers AND killing the insides of your rear tyres.

    After springs and dampers, align the lot up and try it...

    My chosen route would then be playing with wheels and tyres...and tyre pressures.

    Then, if you need them, ARBs.

    ARBs aren't the wonder solution some seem to think they are...they are, in my mind, a finishing touch to an already well sorted chassis.
     
  36. stevehart

    stevehart Bring on the Ice!!

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  37. fran-s3

    fran-s3 Active Member
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    How do you rate the quattro system Ess Three? That's one of the things that drew me to the S3....
     
  38. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I like it.
    It's the car that's not great, as opposed to the quattro system. It may not be as predictable as Torsen quattro, but it's pretty good.

    In my mind, the problem is lack of front end grip...sort that to stop biblical understeer and you can make the chassis work harder, using the traction better.

    Fitting a 'performance' Haldex controller sends more torque to the rear, in an attempt to stop in understeering - in my mind, physically giving it more grip means you can leave the Haldex alone to do a better job - the job it was designed to do - and does pretty well with the standard Haldex controller.

    In saying all that...
    I drove my 'sorted' S3 back to back with a Mk5 Golf GTI and the GTI was no slower once into 2nd...no slower on the back roads, such was the advantage the Mk5 Golf chassis has over the S3.

    Would I refuse to buy a car now without quattro?
    No...if the chassis is good enough...you just have to work harder at getting the best from it, with quattro it's easy to get the best from the car (once it's set up better!).
     
  39. emery1990

    emery1990 Active Member

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    one last question, I just went on dmp and saw they had the shocks and springs kits, im looking at the kw's. but then noticed they had dampers to, and it said dampers/ shock absorber kit. If i get the dampers would i need the springs to, or do they come with springs.
     
  40. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    No idea really...you got the link?
     
  41. emery1990

    emery1990 Active Member

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  42. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    That's a set of dampers only...no springs.
    You match them to your choice of springs.
     

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