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Anyone with interesting views on pros and cons of HS2?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by tom2, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. tom2
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    tom2 Member

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    I support it personally. I think the generation of tax payers in 50 years time will need it, we all complain about austerity now, imagine what a recession in 60/70/100 years time will be like when the ever expanding population can't get to work and we are the laughing stock of Europe with our 1950's mass transport systems and cars that have all been taxed off the road.

    I do think we should get eu funding to help, after all we payed billions as part of the eu to places like Spain to build their road/rail networks etc
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  3. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    If it goes ahead, please keep in mind that it will cost about five times more by completion than it is currently predicted to cost. But it has to go ahead. How can it not? The world won't wait for us.
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  4. sidibear
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    sidibear Looking for Zombies !! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    They binned Concorde as people didn't need to travel that fast to go anywhere and with the advancement of data transfer business meetings could be attended from anywhere.
    So why do we need to get to London so quick?

    Waste of money.

    Side note, while Concorde was in service, the RAF didn't have a plane that could catch it.
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  5. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    It's not just about getting to London quickly. HS2 will take a huge amount of "through traffic" off the existing network, thus allowing it to handle the intermediate regional journeys that the majority of people make more efficiently. By way of a parallel, imagine what the A5 and A6 would be like now, if the M6 and M1 hadn't been built.

    But even if HS2 is built, it won't make Britan a leader; it might just about allow us to catch up to where France's TGV and Japan's bullet train are likely to be by 2030.
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  6. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    It's a lot of money for a bit of railway let's be honest, and most of us won't benefit from it, it's securing the future generations, and for that alone, it's got to go ahead!
    This is the UK of course, and we moan about anything and everything!
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  7. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    Afterthought: Concorde was the last truly great thing we did, and even that was a partnership with France. Like I said, the world won't wait for us.
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  8. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    The country needs to learn how to prioritise issues/ventures just a little bit better.
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  9. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    I understand your point, and you're right to be concerned about what appear to be more pressing problems here and now. But it is always easy to thing of reasons not to do something bold, and the easiest reason of all is to say; "well look at all the other things going on that are more important right now". But if we always take that approach, we'll never get anywhere.

    You cannot fix the present by pretending the future doesn't exist. If the USA had thought like that in the 1960s, we'd never have had a space programme and Man wouldn't have landed on the moon. If VW had thought like that in the 1960s, it would still be building Beetles today.

    (And having written that, I'm pretty sure someone's going to come along and says VW is stilll building Beetles, but you know what I mean. :sm4:)
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  10. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    ^that is a very good point.
    But why the NEED to do something like this. We are past the space race era.
    The UK was always strong economically, and very independent. Forget infrastructure, our current rail and roads are good enough for such a small overpopulated country.
    I cant see this having a huge effect on the economy and this countries status, all to say 'we have this japan and france, so screw your epic trains'
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  11. Tovs
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    Tovs Member

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    On note of that, most the worlds top engineers etc are English, though the UK can't fund them, for the projects that come. Therefore they move on, leaving the UK behind. The HS2 is a last resort thing the UK are using to try modernise a little.
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  12. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    we are STILL some of the best automotive and aerospace engineers in the world though.
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  13. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    I think its a white elephant we already have a rail network,people want to travel faster...fly
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  14. Tovs
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    Tovs Member

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    We are, as we have one of the best education programmes, we produce so many good trades, though stated, UK can't fund this, so they move on to other countries, producing ideas for them, then they claim them

    Its a shame really.

    The UK needs something good behind its name, its becoming a country in the shadows, in every aspect.
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  15. Tovs
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    Tovs Member

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    Though UKs train network is already an overpriced fail anyway, so they're definitely investing in the wrong things here.
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  16. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    Another afterthought: most of the greatest engineering achievements in history didn't happen because they were commercially viable, but because someone set out to do something simply to prove they could.
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  17. Tovs
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    Tovs Member

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    To good :yes:
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  18. tom2
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    tom2 Member

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    Concorde was killed due to the demand for stuffing a plane with as many people as possible. Without the people capacity the cost was unjustified. But a faster train that will carry more people, and enable people to travel to the continent faster puts the balance back in its favour.

    The railway network has a bad reputation because it simply can't cope with the pressure it's under, the virgin pendolinos on the west coast were designed to run at 140mph, they are stuck at 125mph because the outdated infrastructure just wasnt designed for it, plus the railways workload is increasing massively but the budget and workforce is getting continuously squeezed.

    There is a demand for a replacement Concorde by the way, Gulfstream are spending an absolute fortune developing the x-54 to replace it.
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  19. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    Despite the huge costs, we must also remember it will bring with it, a heck of a lot of jobs to the country, if it goes ahead!
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  20. Tovs
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    Tovs Member

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    True, however, I don't think it'd be long before something went wrong.
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  21. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    I love threads like this. People can exchange conflicting opinions without falling out with each other, or necessarily trying to persuade others to their point of view.

    Best of all though, bearing in mind that none of us really know if we're right or not, is that if I am talking complete b0ll0cks, you guys won't find out until 2030! :lmfao:
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  22. Tovs
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    Tovs Member

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    [Sep 24, 2013]
    Haha yeah, though 17 years is enough time for me to "not give a damn" about the HS2 :happy:
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  23. Tolak
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    Tolak Member

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    [Oct 5, 2013]
    But will it?
    Eurostar re-badged the TGV, and many other countries have existing (working) high speed trains, so the chance that we will do a train design on a blank sheet of paper is about as likely as the APT being revived.
    And the influx of European "migrant" workers means the wages can be kept down, and we will then be left with a population of ex-"navvies" who then have no desire to return home and remain here on the bread-line.

    So, no benefit for the labour market, and none for the technology; chances are it will be owned by a foreign company (SNCFUK, anyone?) so even the profits will be exported (tax-free, from previous experience! ;) )

    Now, on a car forum, the concept of public transport is somewhat anachronistic, but for me the main thing that prevents me using a public transport option is that more than half of the journey time will be spent travelling (walking) to and from the nearest (sub)node. Add this to the cost, so getting to London costs the same for one person by train as for a car, and adding all the London parking, etc, still is quids-in over public transport for a couple.

    Very hard to remain enthusiastic about this from a UK Ltd perspective. But what it cannot export is the benefit to the country.
    And for me, apart from reversing the Beeching effect (to reduce the local node distance), this is the aim we should have.
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  24. Lavis89
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    Lavis89 Active Member

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    [Oct 5, 2013]
    Did not know this. Never had the end to fly on a concorde, there may be hope for me being able to experience supersonic travel yet!
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  25. Tolak
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    Tolak Member

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    [Oct 5, 2013]
    Cheaper option is to go for one of these Russian fighter flights; proper supersonic, and a significant experience.
    Any commercial flight is intended to have no excitement; hence the dial on the front wall of the cabin of the Concorde showing the speed!

    And the inability of any air force to catch such a speeding bullet was the basis of "Airport '79", where all sorts of weapons systems were used to try to down a Concorde.
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  26. Just Plain Old
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    Just Plain Old Active Member

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    [Oct 5, 2013]
    HS2, and for that matter many other things (houses on green belt, more hospitals etc), are only needed for one reason............

    OVER POPULATION........ A situation that has been made unsustainable by the last Governments love of, and continued by the current mob,,,, mass UNCONTROLLED Immigration..!

    The current rate of population increase in our tiny Island really is UNSUSTAINABLE....... If this is not resolved, all other issues become academic...!
    #25
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