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Anyone with a GT28RS on a S3?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by gurrab, Nov 24, 2004.

  1. gurrab
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    gurrab New Member

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    Hi,
    is there anyone here who runs a GT28RS on a AWD car?
    Or can such a big turbo only be fitted to a FWD drivetrain?

    Thanks!
    #1
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  3. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    gurrab said:
    Hi,
    is there anyone here who runs a GT28RS on a AWD car?
    Or can such a big turbo only be fitted to a FWD drivetrain?

    Thanks!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No GT28RS's... To be honest, the IHI is a better turbo... peak figures are similar, but the IHI holds the boost all the way to the redline with no drop, whereas the GT28RS drops... Jabba Sport do a manifold .etc for the kit. All you would need to do is get a downpipe fabricated as the FWD downpipe wouldnt fit.

    Cheers

    Rich
    #2
  4. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    of course i read you're post.Isn't the apr stage 3 a gt28r??not rs?Anyway i'm not arguing with you,i'm not irrate either.I just think you should wait until a gt28rs equipped car is put on the rollers at the same time as yours before you make assumptions.
    #3
  5. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    I think we will agree to disagree!

    Im not getting anywhere trying to explain.
    #4
  6. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    This one is definately a RS

    [​IMG]

    figures change, shape doesnt.
    #5
  7. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    If your talking about spool up of the turbo and that by the "graphs" you produced that the gt28rs creates maximum torque by 750rpm slower than the ihi?You don't really know anything about the gt28rs graph it could be any type of boost control?At the end of the day a ko3 spools faster than a ihi but it doesn't make it a better turbo/drive.
    #6
  8. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    If your talking about spool up of the turbo and that by the "graphs" you produced that the gt28rs creates maximum torque by 750rpm slower than the ihi?You don't really know anything about the gt28rs graph it could be any type of boost control?At the end of the day a ko3 spools faster than a ihi but it doesn't make it a better turbo/drive.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    *sigh*

    What im SAYING is that although the RS peaks high, it does not sustain the boost in the same way the IHI does. Forget WHEN it spools up, it doesnt create as much boost at high RPM's like the IHI does. Thats why the IHI has been so successful and is becoming the more favourable big turbo for the 1.8T. It more suited to it.

    Rich
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  9. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    I disagree,i think the gt28rs spools slower but has a far better top end than the ihi and if you want good spool and a turbo thats more suited to a stock internal'd 1.8t go for a ihi.
    #8
  10. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    I disagree,i think the gt28rs spools slower but has a far better top end than the ihi and if you want good spool and a turbo thats more suited to a stock internal'd 1.8t go for a ihi.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Where is the proof for that?
    #9
  11. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    Thats my opinion rich,i'll give proof when i see a dyno graph of a rs and ihi'd 1.8t on the same RR in the uk.
    #10
  12. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    Time will tell
    #11
  13. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Active Member

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    [Nov 24, 2004]
    Hopefully we shall see at stealth racing rr day,3-4 ihi equiped ibizas and if finished in time Adams gt28rs hybrid ibiza (see seatcupra.net),let battle commence /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile_smoking.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gifAndy
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  14. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    no battle.. let the fun begin
    I am looking forward (yes really) to seeing what the GT28RS is actually like.. in the flesh.
    Vortexers are getting all excited about the next variant.. GT2871R although plots posted on Vortex look laggier than the 28Rs..

    Not all IHI's are created equal tho. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #13
  15. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    so true.. and not just the dyno tho..
    on the road/track too... drivebility.. just as important too.
    #14
  16. GolfTTish
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    GolfTTish Member

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    I looked long and hard at a GT28rs before going for IHI.

    I have held both these turbos in my hand side by side, and can tell you that the gt28RS is physicaly much larger than the IHIVF34. I can't see any way it's going to spool up as early as the VF34.

    Also on a small port head, the VF34 will maintain 22psi to 7500rpm. So unless you're going to rev over that, or run much higher boost pressures, there is no point going for a larger turbo.
    If you run higher boost pressures, your timings going to be so retarded, that the EGT's will go through the roof, and the ecu will drag the boost down. So unless you're going to stop the ecu from controlling boost (manual boost controler), you're buggered, and iff you do, you're risking your exhaust valves.

    Now on a large port head car the ihi is going to struggle to hold that kind of boost pressure even with the larger 20 housing, so the gt28rs will move a bit more air, and make a bit more power.

    I've seen logs of gt28rs' moving 250g/sec peak, and the IHI maxes out at about 235-240g/s from my own measurements. This means the rs will make a few % more power than the VF34 on a head that can flow enough air at low enough boost pressure to maintain decent timing advance, an low enough EGT's. Ie not an s3, and not an ibiza unless the heads have had some work done.

    This argument about any turbo making more power than another at the same boost pressure is quite frankly rollox.
    The pressure is generated by backpressure from the air entering the combustion chambers through the head. The only eficiency gain from one turbo to the next is in pumping losses ie how much restriction they place on the exhaust. These acount for a few % max diferences between turbos. Same pressure at the same rpm = same torque and thus the same power.

    Bigger turbos can maintain higher pressures higher in the rev range and make more torque at higher revs. But ultimately if you run too much boost, ignition advance is reduced to such a point that combustion is still occuring when the exhaust valves open. This means the exhaust runs hotter and eventually your manifold, turbo, and valves melt. Also as combustion is occuring after the exhaust valves open, that energy is wasted and not used to push the piston down.

    You may well see some dynos from the US with an RS making silly powers, but they're either using race gas or happy dynos.

    250g/s is going to give you a max of about 345hp on standard fuels and its going to get very hot very quickly, so it won't maintain it for long. To do this on a small port head, you'll need to run about 23psi at 7Krpm. You may gain 20-30hp on race fuels.

    The IHI at 235g/sec will make 325hp on regular fuels. This is with the standard smaller housing. Bills may make a few HP more.

    So to my conclusions. A gt28rs is a waste of time over an IHI vf34 on a small port head 1.8t. On a large port head you may gain 20Hp over a VF34, but you'll lose 500rpm of your power band. I wouldn't want to drive a car that didn't make full boost until 4500rpm. Consequently I bought an IHIvf34 and have 22psi at 3500rpm to 7500rpm. Nice power band I can tel you.

    #15
  17. StephaneS
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    StephaneS Member

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    @ GolfTTish : quality post!!!
    that will go in my favourite with Dave R post on haldex
    #16
  18. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    Nice one John... Quality information there.

    Rich
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  19. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    GolfTTish said:
    I wouldn't want to drive a car that didn't make full boost until 4500rpm. Consequently I bought an IHIvf34 and have 22psi at 3500rpm to 7500rpm. Nice power band I can tel you.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Which is EXACTLY the point i was trying to make in thye first place. You did a much better job of explaining it tho John!

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #18
  20. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    Good points lads,but still makes the same exact point as i stated before;
    The gt28rs spools slower than IHI
    The IHI is more suited to a stock 1.8t(internals and small port head)
    If the gt28rs is allowed(ie non stock 1.8t) will have a better top end and peak horsepower.
    Again this is all my opinion.
    GolfTTish;Nice too get a fair opinion on the max power of the IHI and excellent write up,i totally agree with you.I persoanlly think i'd top out the gt28rs at 360 "real" bhp.
    #19
  21. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ryanc said:
    The IHI is more suited to a stock 1.8t(internals and small port head)


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not for the sake of argument, but it does work very well with a large port head... Tried and tested. Im going to replace the housing for the P20 housing (if its a direct replacement)... Jabba said it works very well with large port heads so results should be good. Something to look forward to in the new year /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Rich
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  22. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    It's bound too work better with a large port head.thats obvious .You can keep putting on bigger housings but it's becoming more like the gt28rs.I'm afraid you can't have top end without some degree of lag.
    #21
  23. GolfTTish
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    GolfTTish Member

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    Power engineering do a modified vf34 to make 350-360 on a scoob. If you want more rich, there are ways. But to be honest if I had much more I'd crash. I can't believe how **** my brakes are. If I drive the car with more than me in it, I keep thinking I'm going to crash. There is nothing wrong with my brakes.

    There are limits to how much power you can actually use. I still think improving VE at high revs by traditional methods, without increasing boost is the way forward, if you want to retain any flexibility.

    #22
  24. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    GolfTTish said:
    Power engineering do a modified vf34 to make 350-360 on a scoob. If you want more rich, there are ways. But to be honest if I had much more I'd crash. I can't believe how **** my brakes are. If I drive the car with more than me in it, I keep thinking I'm going to crash. There is nothing wrong with my brakes.

    There are limits to how much power you can actually use. I still think improving VE at high revs by traditional methods, without increasing boost is the way forward, if you want to retain any flexibility.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Totally agree... There are limits, especially with fwd cars! My plan is in the end to make this my weekend toy...mainy for track days. THats when i become more sensible and have an oil burner as my every day car.

    My next upgrades will be in gearbox, LSD and clutch/flywheel... I reckon an LSD alongside racelogic will be a pretty damn good combination... racelogic already does a very good job.

    My target is around the 360 mark (and as Ryan said, true 360bhp!). Next summer will see the engine rebuilt and the final stages of modifications come out the cupboard. Its always the final bit that costs the most money though!

    Rich
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  25. GolfTTish
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    GolfTTish Member

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    I'm running leon cupra R front discs with brembo calipers, dot5.1 fluid, and greenstuff pads. Nothing wrong with any of them. I just keep finding that I'm going far too fast and expecting them to keep coping, which they do mostly, but the moments I keep having are starting to scare me.
    #24
  26. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    GolfTTish said:
    I'm running leon cupra R front discs with brembo calipers, dot5.1 fluid, and greenstuff pads. Nothing wrong with any of them. I just keep finding that I'm going far too fast and expecting them to keep coping, which they do mostly, but the moments I keep having are starting to scare me.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Edited my above post... i misread your post! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    In all honesty, ive only had a few moments where i thought "OH SH*T"... Thats mostly overtaking people, look down at speed and see that im doing 120 or something silly...far too easy to do... on a few occasions come up behind someone a bit too fast and have to brake harder that you thought. Im pretty restrained now tho... Dont want to have to replace anything else until next year so im just taking it easy, and just using the power once in a while...does a good job of keeping it feeling relaively quick too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #25
  27. gurrab
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    gurrab New Member

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    So what kind of boost levels do you run on the 9.5:1 and the 9.0:1 CR engines?

    Both your regular boost settings and the high boost settigs for those glory runs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #26
  28. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 25, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    gurrab said:
    So what kind of boost levels do you run on the 9.5:1 and the 9.0:1 CR engines?

    Both your regular boost settings and the high boost settigs for those glory runs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    With the IHI, i run about 1.2 bar boost.

    Rich
    #27
  29. dickys3
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    dickys3 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 26, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    GolfTTish said:
    I'm running leon cupra R front discs with brembo calipers, dot5.1 fluid, and greenstuff pads. Nothing wrong with any of them. I just keep finding that I'm going far too fast and expecting them to keep coping, which they do mostly, but the moments I keep having are starting to scare me.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Should you really be using greenstuff pads with your sort of power? Wouldn't redstuff be more suitable?

    Rich.
    #28
  30. imported_YOGi
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    imported_YOGi Guest

    [Nov 26, 2004]
    Does anyone else feel left out......*Sigh* I want a bigger turbo!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    YOGi
    #29
  31. Khufu
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    Khufu Active Member

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    [Nov 26, 2004]
    I havent even got one, so yes!
    #30
  32. BenS1
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    BenS1 New Member

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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    jojo said:
    You guys have very SLOW cars man! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Whats your power to weight ratio then?

    Mines 361bhp and car weighs 1119Kg, so thats 323bhp per ton.

    Yours is 426bhp and weighs what? Guessing (Could be totally wrong here) 1400Kg?
    So thats 304bhp per ton.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Seriously though, I'm only pulling your leg. I don't want to get into a "my car is better than yours" arguement. I'm sure your car is very fast, and with 4wd can handle the power much better than my Ibiza can.

    Also, my 361bhp still needs to be independantly verified, as does the book weight of 1119Kg. Both should be verified (And probably disproven) this coming weekend.

    Cheers
    Ben

    #31
  33. dickys3
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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    BenS1 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    jojo said:
    You guys have very SLOW cars man! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Whats your power to weight ratio then?

    Mines 361bhp and car weighs 1119Kg, so thats 323bhp per ton.

    Yours is 426bhp and weighs what? Guessing (Could be totally wrong here) 1400Kg?
    So thats 304bhp per ton.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Seriously though, I'm only pulling your leg. I don't want to get into a "my car is better than yours" arguement. I'm sure your car is very fast, and with 4wd can handle the power much better than my Ibiza can.

    Also, my 361bhp still needs to be independantly verified, as does the book weight of 1119Kg. Both should be verified (And probably disproven) this coming weekend.

    Cheers
    Ben



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ben,

    Don't listen to jojo! If he has 400 + BHP then I have a 2ft di*k!

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Rich.
    #32
  34. RichA3Turbo
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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    DickyS3 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    BenS1 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    jojo said:
    You guys have very SLOW cars man! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Whats your power to weight ratio then?

    Mines 361bhp and car weighs 1119Kg, so thats 323bhp per ton.

    Yours is 426bhp and weighs what? Guessing (Could be totally wrong here) 1400Kg?
    So thats 304bhp per ton.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Seriously though, I'm only pulling your leg. I don't want to get into a "my car is better than yours" arguement. I'm sure your car is very fast, and with 4wd can handle the power much better than my Ibiza can.

    Also, my 361bhp still needs to be independantly verified, as does the book weight of 1119Kg. Both should be verified (And probably disproven) this coming weekend.

    Cheers
    Ben



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ben,

    Don't listen to jojo! If he has 400 + BHP then I have a 2ft di*k!

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Rich.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
    #33
  35. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    DickyS3 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    BenS1 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    jojo said:
    You guys have very SLOW cars man! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Whats your power to weight ratio then?

    Mines 361bhp and car weighs 1119Kg, so thats 323bhp per ton.

    Yours is 426bhp and weighs what? Guessing (Could be totally wrong here) 1400Kg?
    So thats 304bhp per ton.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Seriously though, I'm only pulling your leg. I don't want to get into a "my car is better than yours" arguement. I'm sure your car is very fast, and with 4wd can handle the power much better than my Ibiza can.

    Also, my 361bhp still needs to be independantly verified, as does the book weight of 1119Kg. Both should be verified (And probably disproven) this coming weekend.

    Cheers
    Ben



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ben,

    Don't listen to jojo! If he has 400 + BHP then I have a 2ft di*k!

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Rich.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm glad you guys are paying attension LOL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue_out.gif
    #34
  36. GolfTTish
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    GolfTTish Member

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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    Just a little food for thought for anyone who wants to confirm their rolling road results.

    Look at the table and chart below compiled from Autocars road test results, and you'll see that 60-100mph times are directly proportional to power to weight. If you draw an imaginary line through the points, any car sitting above or to the right of the line has it's power figure inflated, and any to the left or below is understated.

    The pink dots are Badger 5's Ibeza at quoted and my guestimated power based on the performance he got last year for PVW.

    Mine are based on me with vagcom logging speed, at 3 samples a second, so I've had to extrapolate a bit.

    The basics are, go out and thrash your car from 60-100, against a stop watch. If you have over 300hp/tonne, you should be able to do it in 5 seconds or below. Go try it and report back!

    Apologies for the image sizes

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #35
  37. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    in the 5 speed box, 3rd is adequate!
    #36
  38. GolfTTish
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    GolfTTish Member

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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    BenS1 said:
    But gearing must make a difference. Say you need to make a gear change... that'll cost you over half a second!

    Ben


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Most cars require a gear change. Either second to third, or third to forth. Your grar change should be faster than half a second. With the 5sp, I find using 2nd and third is marginaly quicker than third alone. About 0.2 seconds.

    Some exotica will be using first and second. I've picked a fair selection of cars in that list, some fwd, some awd, some rwd, some heavy, some superlight. All with different power figures, yet they prety much all fall close to the curve, with only afew notable exceptions.
    #37
  39. BenS1
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    BenS1 New Member

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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    My gear change isn'tfaster than half a second. Not now anyway.... the 02J gearbox really resists changing gear at high revs! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    #38
  40. BenS1
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    BenS1 New Member

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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    gurrab said:
    So what kind of boost levels do you run on the 9.5:1 and the 9.0:1 CR engines?

    Both your regular boost settings and the high boost settigs for those glory runs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Mines a 9.1:1 CR and I run 1.35bar boost.

    Cheers
    Ben
    #39
  41. GolfTTish
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    GolfTTish Member

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    [Nov 29, 2004]
    Go do the test ben and just use third. Use vag com to log speed.
    My o2j doesn't seem to mind high rev, fast changes. Ave it!
    #40

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