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anyone know anything about TT v6 brakes?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by jediknight, May 17, 2005.

  1. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    yeah i know i know i keep going on about brakes and i will probably just end up getting the brembo ones but i just want to explore all options first.

    someone on the tt forum said the tt v6 discs were bigger (believeble) and that the calipers were twin pot?? (not so sure)

    anyone else know this?

    ta /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #1
  2. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    yeah i know i know i keep going on about brakes and i will probably just end up getting the brembo ones but i just want to explore all options first.

    someone on the tt forum said the tt v6 discs were bigger (believeble) and that the calipers were twin pot?? (not so sure)

    anyone else know this?

    ta /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Could b the same as the R32... Twin piston sliding caliper and 330mm discs... Still average at best from what i've heard
    #2
  3. monty77
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    monty77 Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    yeah i know i know i keep going on about brakes and i will probably just end up getting the brembo ones but i just want to explore all options first.

    someone on the tt forum said the tt v6 discs were bigger (believeble) and that the calipers were twin pot?? (not so sure)

    anyone else know this?

    ta /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Didn't think any VAG cars came with 4 pot (all calipers are twin pot .. 1 either side /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) as standard. They're most likely the same as the R32 brakes and not a huge improvement on standard.

    ...went through what you're thinking mate - save yourself 2 months of pain and just buy the BremboGTs or the ECS 2v2s /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Actually after reading jojo's posts I'd go for 2v2 .. those brembo disc prices are crazy!!

    A
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  4. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    yeah i know i know i keep going on about brakes and i will probably just end up getting the brembo ones but i just want to explore all options first.

    someone on the tt forum said the tt v6 discs were bigger (believeble) and that the calipers were twin pot?? (not so sure)

    anyone else know this?

    ta /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Didn't think any VAG cars came with 4 pot (all calipers are twin pot .. 1 either side /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) as standard. They're most likely the same as the R32 brakes and not a huge improvement on standard.

    ...went through what you're thinking mate - save yourself 2 months of pain and just buy the BremboGTs or the ECS 2v2s /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Actually after reading jojo's posts I'd go for 2v2 .. those brembo disc prices are crazy!!

    A

    [/ QUOTE ]

    All original calipers to date have been single piston sliding caliper hence the w*nk brakes and uneven pad wear.

    And yes i would go for the 2v2 kit...and im not just saying that because i sell it (as it happen we sell the brembo kit too!!)

    Rich
    #4
  5. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Actually after reading jojo's posts I'd go for 2v2 .. those brembo disc prices are crazy!!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Had I known about the 2v2's a couple of years ago, I probably would have got that kit too. I got my Brembo GT kit on a groupbuy here a couple of years ago for £750 + vat fitted @ AmD, so I made a saving back then.
    #5
  6. imported_Stewart
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    imported_Stewart Guest

    Ok, they are the same as the R32 disks.

    They are NOT 330mm, they are 334mm

    They do NOT have a piston on each side, they have twin pistons on one side with sliding caliper housing.

    They are NOT a slight improvement over standard, they are a massive improvement over standard, especially when used with the ECS 2 piece disks.

    Having used them in anger both on track and heavy road use (had to brake from 130mph to stand still recently and the thing stopped on a dime) I can say these are a worthwhile cheaper alternative. You do not need spacers with these either.
    #6
  7. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    Jedi, I bought R32 discs from Rich and am going to use them with GT3 calipers I have. Currently designing a bracket to mount the calipers. Discs are the same size as TT V6 ie. 334x32.
    Let you know how I get on. Just need to take some measurements off the car.

    Chris.
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  8. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    so if most cars have 1 piston on one side... like the S3, why does everyone criticise the s3 brakes so much... its only what every other car manufacturer does by the sound of it??
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  9. nervus
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    nervus Active Member

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    Prob because its so heavy and it can be made to go so well with a simple re-map that it really shows the brakes up.
    #9
  10. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    Exactly! They are fine for everyday driving in normal cars, but an S3 is supposed to be sporty, therefore you would assume people drive it that way. That being the case why fit it with such w*nk brakes.

    Rich
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  11. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    ah ok i understand.

    shame they didnt fit the brembos like the leon cupra r then we wouldnt have these problems (although no doubt people would still upgrade)

    i'll continue searching.... not resprting to the bog standard brembo upgrade just yet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #11
  12. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Exactly! They are fine for everyday driving in normal cars, but an S3 is supposed to be sporty, therefore you would assume people drive it that way. That being the case why fit it with such w*nk brakes.

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry rich... think you missed Audis press release... S3's are not meant for achieving any kind of speed they are meant for going to the shops and staying below 3k rpm...

    that's the impression I get from Audi anyway... :)
    #12
  13. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Exactly! They are fine for everyday driving in normal cars, but an S3 is supposed to be sporty, therefore you would assume people drive it that way. That being the case why fit it with such w*nk brakes.

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The brakes as such are not w*nk...I ran the standard callipers with grooves machined into the standard Audi discs and EBC pads for years...and I didn't meet too many that would out brake me on the Scottish runs!

    The standard PADS are w*nk!

    Great -The standard stuff is fine for road use...even very fast road use...but they can't hack the track.

    Even the Brembo's struggle after heavy track use...but again, it's the pads.
    So do the Porsche brakes if using road pads.

    Another thing to mention is that I don't believe you can get such a thing as a good road and track pad. They don't exist.

    Great track pads are awful road pads.
    Great road pads are awful track pads.

    If you do a lot of track driving...do yourself a favour:
    Get a set of dedicated track pads...
    And run road pads on the road.

    You get the best of all worlds then...you'll still kill discs though!
    #13
  14. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    so if most cars have 1 piston on one side... like the S3, why does everyone criticise the s3 brakes so much... its only what every other car manufacturer does by the sound of it??

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Pads, pads, pads, etc
    And lack of brake cooling...cooking the standard stuff.

    If you want to help...remove the stone shield thingies from the back of the disc...mine lasted just over a week before they went in the bin...they stop the air from getting to the disc, and cooling it.
    #14
  15. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Exactly! They are fine for everyday driving in normal cars, but an S3 is supposed to be sporty, therefore you would assume people drive it that way. That being the case why fit it with such w*nk brakes.

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The brakes as such are not w*nk...I ran the standard callipers with grooves machined into the standard Audi discs and EBC pads for years...and I didn't meet too many that would out brake me on the Scottish runs!

    The standard PADS are w*nk!

    Great -The standard stuff is fine for road use...even very fast road use...but they can't hack the track.

    Even the Brembo's struggle after heavy track use...but again, it's the pads.
    So do the Porsche brakes if using road pads.

    Another thing to mention is that I don't believe you can get such a thing as a good road and track pad. They don't exist.

    Great track pads are awful road pads.
    Great road pads are awful track pads.

    If you do a lot of track driving...do yourself a favour:
    Get a set of dedicated track pads...
    And run road pads on the road.

    You get the best of all worlds then...you'll still kill discs though!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep your right... Wasnt clear. the standard discs ans standard pads are rubbish... but even with drooved discs and better pads i suspect they are still not upto much.

    Re the pads... Hawk HPS pads really are a good compromise (we supply these with Stage 2v2 and most other kits). They are great for road use and on the track stood upto 10 laps of castle combe running flat out! If there is to be a pad for road AND track i believe these are the ones! I agree with you though that it would be better still to have dedicated track pads and dedicated road pads.


    Rich
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  16. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    The 2v2 kit saves 27% of the weight over the stock setup (33% on a car with 288mm standard fronts)... Im unsure what its like in comparison to the brembo kit in terms of weight.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Probably slightly lighter...either way, its a good saving...and right where you want it on under-damped Audis!


    [ QUOTE ]

    With regard to the ABS, i've not yet managed to bring the ABS on in the dry without trying to...


    [/ QUOTE ]

    But surely the point of maximum braking is just at the point where the tyre starts to let go...in order to achieve maximum braking you need to be able to feel the ABS activation point...and modulate from there.

    I get the ABS on every time I drive my car...as I did the S3.

    I'm not trying to, as such...it's just habit.


    [ QUOTE ]

    Also heard quite a few stories now from people who have warped the discs (jojo amongst others) and has nothing to do with them not cooling the car down properly or incorrect wheel bolt torque.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Back to brake cooling...and pad choice.
    Bad pads need lots more effort - and more specifically - longer applications of effort to get the same results...this in turn adds heat - sustained heat.

    A disc will heat up very quickly on the surface with an aggressive pad...but as soon as the pad is removed, it'll cool off very quickly on the surface if the cooling is correct.

    A disc used with bad pads takes longer applications of the brakes...more heat and more time...this heats the full disc up, and the cooling vents in the middle can't deal with it...everything gets hotter (wheel bearings, track rods included) and the pads degrade in the heat...meaning even more force is required...the fluid then starts to boil...giving air bubbles...meaning EVEN MORE force is required...adding more heat...etc.
    Vicious circle.

    The key, is appropriate pads with a co-efficient of friction suitable for the operating temperature range, and sufficient brake cooling.

    Sort that...you've cracked it...any brakes will then do their best.


    [ QUOTE ]

    As i said, we sell ECS and Brembo, so im not trying to sell one over the other... I just feel the 2v2 kit is a better choice in the long run (cheaper discs, cheaper pads .etc)


    [/ QUOTE ]

    And in light of the cost of the Brembo stuff...a damn good option.

    I guess you pay your money and take your choice...but leave the standard brake cooling / shields and you will spend your life replacing either full discs or rotors - depending on which you go for.
    #16
  17. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Re the pads... Hawk HPS pads really are a good compromise (we supply these with Stage 2v2 and most other kits). They are great for road use and on the track stood upto 10 laps of castle combe running flat out! If there is to be a pad for road AND track i believe these are the ones!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm still not convinced about them...

    In my opinion, I'd rather have a soft, work from cold, quiet, disc friendly pad for everyday use...

    And a dedicated 'race' pad for trackday use.
    My own personal favourite is something from the Mintex Racing range...I've used then for years for track use...their support and advice is invaluable...
    I have a set of very special, super aggressive track pads from them...they squeal like mad on the road...and burst the blood vessels in your eyes on the track!

    They'll still destroy / warp discs though...you can delay it...but discs are disposable items...you get one or two races out of a set...then you bin them.
    That goes for rotors or full discs...if you want the performance, and are serious, you have to treat them as disposable.
    Which makes the ECS stuff look like the better option.

    Sure, with better brake cooling and pad compound, you can make them last longer...but they are disposable.

    As, it should be said, is the brake fluid. Change it before, and after, each trackday for optimal performance.
    #17
  18. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Probably slightly lighter...either way, its a good saving...and right where you want it on under-damped Audis!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well i've FINALLY got around to changing the shocks! About bloody time too! The standard ones are well fooked! I've jsut gone for Eibach pro dampers for the time being as i can get them wuickly and very cheap and will be a vast improvment on the rubbish that is the OE dampers... So, effect of lighter brakes should be even more evident (maybe!)

    [ QUOTE ]

    But surely the point of maximum braking is just at the point where the tyre starts to let go...in order to achieve maximum braking you need to be able to feel the ABS activation point...and modulate from there.

    I get the ABS on every time I drive my car...as I did the S3.

    I'm not trying to, as such...it's just habit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I guess it depends on how you brake... I dont tend to stand on them suddenly... i tend to apply pressure gradually (albeit quick gradual if you get what i mean). On the track then its a different matter and you do tend to stomp on them, but even them, the passengers air was expelled from their lungs and was slowing very quickly but the ABS still did not kick in... But it does work!

    [ QUOTE ]

    but leave the standard brake cooling / shields and you will spend your life replacing either full discs or rotors - depending on which you go for.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Those damn things went a LOOOONG time ago...And the back ones have been sliced off!

    Rich
    #18
  19. jediknight
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    jediknight Member

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    so ess three you your telling me to dump the shields for starters?

    thanks for all this adivce.. i like to get to know the parts of a car before i upgrade them
    #19
  20. DavidR
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    DavidR Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Interesting... Not what i've found and a few others with the same setup as me. Other have tried OE porsche (Brembo) pads, Pagid .etc and all found the hawks to be the best.

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Brakes, feel, handling etc are very subjective and our views confirm this... There is no ideal applicable to every driver..

    We are using different brake systems which makes a difference too.
    #20
  21. DavidR
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    DavidR Active Member

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    An S3 as standard is set up to brake neutrally and evenly using the maximum force permissable at 4 wheels...

    Too much front bias and the fronts lock up and increase stopping distance, too much rear bias and the car becomes difficult to control.

    If you fit the mother, father and great aunt of big brakes on the front then you will increase stopping distances as the fronts will lock prematurely and the rears will not be able to brake as hard.

    Don't beleive the hype about ABD fitted to modern cars either - it's a fancy way of saying that it has ABS.

    A brake improvement offers, in my mind, better feel, feedback and cooling which leads to improved fade resistance. That an upgrade should provide more retardation is nonsensical as almost every OEM road car has brakes from the factory capable of locking the wheels at 100mph.

    A proper brake upgrade (unless redressing a fundamental lack of balance from the factory) will not give a better 100-0 time / distance than OEM on the first application or in an emergency (and many are worse due to detrimental bias from poor setup and bodged applications) but rather should be able to do 100-0 repeatedly with the minimum possible deterioration per repitition.

    I think many people are fooled by an apparent "upgrade" as they have just binned thin pads and discs, replacing them with new items which will by their increased thickness dissipate heat better and resist fade.

    Stoptech are a very clever company who have considered this in some detail and their kits work (I did 10,000 miles with their £1800 kit fitted to my 340bhp S4). It offered stability, improved feel and resislience to fade, but did not stop the car any quicker during cold braking tests than OEM. However, the OEM brakes faded quickly, were numb in feel and cracked / warped (or whatever wobble theory you subscribe to) much more quickly than the stoptechs. Their backup and tech support was excellent also.
    #21
  22. tennisguy
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    tennisguy Member

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    I have used Stoptech 328 mm kit on my A3 1.8T for almost 5000 kms now. I can confirm what David R points out. It doesnt improve the stopping distance but it really improves feel and the fade resistance.

    It also save the weight around 8 kg. Not a lot but compared the size of OE and aftermarket one. This is a huge gain. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    It really depends on what you want from the brake conversion. Somes wants to improve Bling factor /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif (myself include, cant denied that), Some dont.

    It is up to you, mate to decide.... be sure on what u want, thats all.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #22
  23. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    David and Glen, very Interesting reading.
    So the rule is match the piston sizes with the master cylinder and upgrade the rears along with the fronts ?
    Agree with what you both say about upgrading to prevent fade . Recently had to stop quite hard from 120 mph , brakes haven't been the same since.
    Have to say, doing it primarily for better braking over standard but admit that some of it is for the bling. Not as pure as I think I am !

    Always interesting to read your replies.

    Chris.
    #23
  24. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Have to say, doing it primarily for better braking over standard but admit that some of it is for the bling. Not as pure as I think I am !

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Most would be lying if they denied that looks wasnt part of the reason!
    #24
  25. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]

    Most would be lying if they denied that looks wasnt part of the reason!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree...

    It's very easy to see who are the drivers and who the polishers...

    The brakes on 'drivers' cars are frankly, wrecked...well used, blued discs, callipers that are unpainted, black, or heat soaked and rapidly tending towards black with subdued original paint...wheels covered in brake dust, bearing the telltale signs of soot where his pads have recently spend some time combusting......
    These are the people who'd take rusty, non-bling brakes that work well over the nice shiny painted and anodised alloy fashion accessories.

    Your average 'man about town' will have immaculately turned out callipers adorning his bling-chariot, with barely a hint of scoring on the discs, nor the slightest hint of blueing on the disc surface. Furthermore, there will be no brake dust to be seen on his overly large and very shiny 'bling' wheels. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    I guess the ideal would be the looks and the performance...
    But anyone who uses their brakes hard will tell you...you can't keep them pristine if you use them...they get wrecked quickly if you use them properly.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, mine are far from immaculate, the discs are looking very well used and the calipers arecovered in brake dust..as is the wheel (the inside is black so you cant see it so much) They have been looking ebtter sine i took the wheels off and cleaned the brakes for GTI-i /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
    #25
  26. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Well, mine are far from immaculate, the discs are looking very well used and the calipers arecovered in brake dust..as is the wheel (the inside is black so you cant see it so much) They have been looking ebtter sine i took the wheels off and cleaned the brakes for GTI-i /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Excellent...

    But took the wheels off to clean the brakes?
    Ooh...that's verging on pandering to the God of Bling!
    #26
  27. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]

    Well, mine are far from immaculate, the discs are looking very well used and the calipers arecovered in brake dust..as is the wheel (the inside is black so you cant see it so much) They have been looking ebtter sine i took the wheels off and cleaned the brakes for GTI-i /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Excellent...

    But took the wheels off to clean the brakes?
    Ooh...that's verging on pandering to the God of Bling!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Let me off!! It was for the show! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
    #27
  28. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Nothing wrong with cleaning your brakes. Nor bling. Anyone put "bling" ally mirrors on their S3 ?

    Chris.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Good point Chris...
    I believe that there are many people who have blinged their chariot up by adding those silly polished alloy bling mirrors...of even the plastic faux polished alloy covers...so sad.

    Anyone with taste would have opted for the non-bling brushed versions, which are less shiny than a painted cover...hence reducing their bling count. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
    #28

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