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Anti Roll Bars

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Grant, Jul 14, 2004.

  1. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    After fitting the my new dampers and lowering springs, I still get chassis roll and understeer.

    So now it comes down to changing the ARBs.

    From Glen's post on ARBs the S3 has a 19mm front ARB and a 15mm rear ARB.

    From reading Glen's post above, installing the front ARB is a bit of a nightmare. Would leaving the original front ARB in and installing a larger rear ARB reduce understeer any? What size of rear ARB would be recommended with a 19mm front when the rear is 15mm? Would a 16mm rear ARB be enough? Would a 19mm rear ARB one be too much - 19mm front, 19mm back? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    Glen went from 19 front and 15 rear to 22 front, 19 rear. An increase of 1 bias to the rear. So I'm guessing, changing to a 16mm rear ARB should be ok? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    HELP!
    #1
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  3. robthehungrymonkey
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    robthehungrymonkey Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    I think I read on here somewhere about the 4 motion ARB being 16mm, I am thinking of doing a similiar thing. Does anyone know if this will work?
    #2
  4. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    Will the 4Motion rear ARB fit right on to the S3 with no probs? Do you need to buy anything else, ie.e rubber mounts?

    Part number for a VAG 16mm rear ARB is 1J0 511 409J - is this the 4Motion one?
    #3
  5. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Imola S3 said:
    Will the 4Motion rear ARB fit right on to the S3 with no probs? Do you need to buy anything else, ie.e rubber mounts?

    Part number for a VAG 16mm rear ARB is 1J0 511 409J - is this the 4Motion one?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You would need to buy the ARB, and the mounts/bushings .etc.

    Rich
    #4
  6. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    Can't confirm the part number, but the 16mm V6 4-Motion ARB DOES fit the A/S3 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif And isn't TOO hard to fit /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif As Rich says, make sure you get the matching bushings and mounts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #5
  7. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    Have done this already,it does help,also its a cheap and easy mod.Cheers Andy
    #6
  8. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    Have done this already,it does help,also its a cheap and easy mod.Took me about 30mins to do and didn't even jack the car up,clearance with s3 heatsheild might be more awkward and exhaust will have to be dropped of mounts,dead easy with ramp access.Cheers Andy
    #7
  9. peteA3tdi
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    peteA3tdi Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    how much did all the parts come to?
    #8
  10. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Imola S3 said:
    After fitting the my new dampers and lowering springs, I still get chassis roll and understeer.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You will...and there's nothing wrong with that. Don't go making the Boy Racer error of thinking that a car has to be rock solid to handle. It doesn't. Roll is required...but needs to be limited and controlled.

    As for understeer...there is a train of thought that says it's driver error.
    I could drive my standard S3 and get no understeer at all...not easy admittedly, but it can be done.
    Sometimes people have to re-assess how they drive to get the best from the chassis.



    [ QUOTE ]

    From reading Glen's post above, installing the front ARB is a bit of a nightmare. Would leaving the original front ARB in and installing a larger rear ARB reduce understeer any?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes...it'll help quash understeer by tending to add oversteer - and in effect making the chassis more neutral...but 1mm isn't enough and it'll still roll off the tyres at the front.

    Please bear in mind that springs, dampers, ARBs, tyre sizes, tyre sidewall stiffness, tyre pressure and suspension angles all are a function of each other...change one, and you have to re-assess all the rest.
    My set up works on my car...18" wheels, springs & dampers, ARBs and bespoke tyre pressures and suspension angles.
    It may not work on all set ups.

    What will work well however, is the relationship between H&R springs / Bilstein dampers and Neuspeed ARBs....but you have Eibach springs - so all bets are off! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    Personally, I feel adding a 1mm rear bar only is only good for adding another meaningless line in someones 'mod list' in their signature. It doesn't affect the chassis enough to make it worthwhile. That's only my personal opinion mind...



    [ QUOTE ]

    What size of rear ARB would be recommended with a 19mm front when the rear is 15mm? Would a 16mm rear ARB be enough? Would a 19mm rear ARB one be too much - 19mm front, 19mm back? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would not run a large rear and a standard front. At all.
    The rear will be very stiff, adding oversteer...and the front will roll about like an old fishing boat...removing grip from the rear and putting you bang into snap oversteer situations. Add to that the unpredictability of the good old Haldex ststem and in my view, it's an accident waiting to happen.

    I wrote my Integra Type-R off trying a foolhardy stunt like that...not recommended. Oh, and the ITR never had the power oversteer aspect the S3 could have.

    To each, their own though...



    [ QUOTE ]

    Glen went from 19 front and 15 rear to 22 front, 19 rear. An increase of 1 bias to the rear. So I'm guessing, changing to a 16mm rear ARB should be ok? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, this would work...and it will alter the chassis balance but the front will still roll.
    To sort out the chassis you need to stop it rolling - and not by adding daft-hard dampers!
    Once the roll is controlled you can adjust the attitude of roll br proportionally increasing ARB sizes to bias the chassis for understeer or oversteer.

    Mine does neither...it's totally neutral. No understeer, no oversteer.
    But, bear in mind that's got a lot of development in the way of suspension angles and tyre pressures added too...but the same ARB set up WILL work better than ANY other.

    In my view, the 1mm bigger rear bar is next to worthless.
    In my view the 'big' rear bar with standard front bar is potentially dangerous.

    Do it once, do it right...
    The Neuspeed stuff works. Period. I just don't see there being a better set up available as the Neuspeed set up is absolutely PERFECT. I don't use that phrase lightly...it is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT. I could not have set it up better if I'd had access to all the ARBs in the world...it works.

    I believe the R32 stuff would also work...but without searching, I can't remember the sizes for the R32 ARBs. Isn't the front R32 ARB even larger than the Neuspeed TT/S3 bar? It would make sense due to the heavier nose of the R32...but on an S3 this would tend to bies the car back to understeer.

    Now, stop being a typical Aberdonian, stop trying to save a £ here and there...start saving and sort the chassis once and for all! you'll thank me in the end! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
    #9
  11. robthehungrymonkey
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    robthehungrymonkey Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    Due to budget constraints, I can't afford a springs/dampers and ARB's set up, would just getting new ARB's improve the handling enough to make it worthwhile?
    #10
  12. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    A decent suspension kit will improve the handling no end...but the car will still roll on the corners and understeer.

    A decent ARB upgrade will make the car roll less in the bends but it'll still be awful on undulations and won't feel pecise....and it'll still understeer as you'll run out of suspension travel, hit the bump stops and enter the understeer zone!

    From experience, the only way to make an S3 handle properly, is to do both, and mess with the suspension geometry and tyre pressures.

    If it's one of the other...go with springs and dampers first.
    #11
  13. pure
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    pure Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Imola S3 said:
    After fitting the my new dampers and lowering springs, I still get chassis roll and understeer.

    So now it comes down to changing the ARBs.

    From Glen's post on ARBs the S3 has a 19mm front ARB and a 15mm rear ARB.

    From reading Glen's post above, installing the front ARB is a bit of a nightmare. Would leaving the original front ARB in and installing a larger rear ARB reduce understeer any? What size of rear ARB would be recommended with a 19mm front when the rear is 15mm? Would a 16mm rear ARB be enough? Would a 19mm rear ARB one be too much - 19mm front, 19mm back? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    Glen went from 19 front and 15 rear to 22 front, 19 rear. An increase of 1 bias to the rear. So I'm guessing, changing to a 16mm rear ARB should be ok? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    HELP!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I have only replaced the rear ARB. If you think about it in terms of ratio's...replacing the front ARB and rear ARB for bigger bars is not necessary. Granted they might be stronger...but for day to day usage you can get away with replacing only the rear ARB with a 16mm VW 4motion part.

    It fits straight on, comes with all the bushes etc. Took about an hour to fit, the exhaust had to be dropped to get it in easily.

    It doesn't sound like a lot (wow 1mm difference) but believe me it transfoms the car. Corners that I previously understeered on, I can now take these same corners with the same tyres etc like I'm on rails.

    #12
  14. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    pure said:

    It doesn't sound like a lot (wow 1mm difference) but believe me it transfoms the car. Corners that I previously understeered on, I can now take these same corners with the same tyres etc like I'm on rails.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I don't believe this is as large an advantage as some think...

    Having played about with ARBs a lot over the last 10 years, if limiting roll to improve the chassis feel is your aim, 1mm on a rear bar that is far too small as standard is not enough. noticable? Yes, I'm sure...but the placebo effect is also normally experienced.

    If reducing understeer is the objective, you will see a better return by increasing the rear tyre pressures by about 0.4 bar!
    This will give the same reduction in understeer (normally) and save on the cost of a rear ARB.

    To do the job properly you have to limit the chassis roll so that the carefully selected suspension settings have the opportunity to work...and in my view, a 1mm larger ARB doesn't do enough.

    It will help, and it can't do enough...but it's simply not enough to make a genuine difference in my view, however, if it helps nothing more than the drivers confidence, then it's worth having.
    #13
  15. pure
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    pure Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    Glen, I changed the springs and left the dampers standard, car still haevily understeered. Doing the same route home each night there are certain corners where I would "test the car out" wet and dry. The ca understeered all the time!

    Replaced the rear ARB, adjusted camber and toe. The car was totally different. Same drive home...very little understeer on the same corners. If you don't believe me, that's ok, but I know it isn't a placebo effect. For the very little money the mod costs (£70 fitted)or a little more if u want to play with camber and toe as the geo needs re-doing)), I'd say it is worth it.
    #14
  16. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    Maybe it was the camber and toe settings that reduced the understeer - not the ARB?
    #15
  17. pure
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    pure Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    The camber and toe settings were minor. Although I'm not rulling it out.
    #16
  18. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    i put the 4motion bar on the back on its own, and was underwhelmed to say the least.

    i ended up scapping it and going for the front/back neuspeed set, which did transform the car completely.

    i added them after mtm/quattro gmbh springs and bilstein dampers, and the anti-roll bars improved things far more than the springs/damper combination did.

    i dont have experience of the neuspeed bars without the springs/dampers though.

    there is a significant savings of having the springs/dampers/arbs at the same time though, so i would save up and do it in one go.

    i later added the rear adjustable tie bars to remove the excess camber, and would have saved a lot of money again by doing it all at once.

    the end product is a completely different car from an s3 though - well worth it and completely controllable which wasnt the case for the wide understeer of the original setup.
    #17
  19. alkee
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    alkee New Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    i have a tt and have ordered a 409j 16mm rear arb , my tt is really soggy at the back its got a 14mm arb at the moment. i figured for £40 and an hour of fiddling about, its worth a try
    #18
  20. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    i think the tt 14 to 16mm swap would be good, but dont forget that audi gave the front 20mm instead of 19mm on these TTs
    #19
  21. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    The neuspeed ARBs are totally adjustable right? So you can customise each?

    Dunk you're saying 16mm rear with lowered GMBH springs and dampers are pants? and not worth the money??

    I have lowered GMBH springs/ fornt damper, rear tie adj tie, and yes there is under steer, its really noticable only on difficult bends/ roudabouts, but compared to most cars my car handles really well. Maybe the facelift 2002/3 cars have different arb setup anyway.


    #20
  22. alkee
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    alkee New Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    whats the price for an arb kit eibach or neuspeed ? anyone know where to get em . i read somewhere that the r32 has H&R arb's and suspension,
    #21
  23. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    sorry i didnt say the combination were pants, just that the rear 16mm bar only after gmbh springs and bilseins didnt add much - although the springs and dampers were a big improvement, the neuspeed front and rear bars were by far the biggest improvement.

    partly because they come with silastic bushes rather than the soggy rubber audi stuff, but also because the front is 1.7x stiffer than the s3 standard, but the rear is 1.7x1.7 increase in stiffness compared to the 15mm standard.

    this increases the overall roll stiffness, but more at the rear, reducing understeer whilst the front stiffness allows the front tyres to bite harder.

    the geometry changes are also important- -1.5deg neg camber at the front, 2 to 4 minutes toe out each side, but after each hardware change, you have to do a geometry change. the neuspeed bars cost about £450 supplied and fitted, and although this seems expensive, i think they offer better value than just a dramatic drop in ride height with very stiff dampers/springs.

    if i was doing this again, i would do 1 of 2 options - either neuspeed bars, geometry changes with standard springs and dampers (if they had less than 20k for instance) or do spings, dampers, upper rear tie bars (upper ones push out the wheels rather than pull in the bottom - looks better), neuspeed ARBs and geometry changes, all in one go.
    #22
  24. jgrand
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    jgrand Member

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    [Jul 14, 2004]
    AmD do the Eibach arbs. I was quoted over £500 + vat to get them fitted.
    #23
  25. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    [Jul 15, 2004]
    awesome gti supply and fit the neuspeed bars - £450 including vat complete. very good service as well.
    #24
  26. StephenBogan
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    StephenBogan Member

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    [Jul 15, 2004]
    I've recently had Nuespeed Bars fitted, front and rear and say that the result is mega. Only one thing I was dissapointed with was that they arn't adjustable, but looking back at it, probably for the best!

    I was quoted from Star Performace £ 230 for Eibach and £310 for Nuespeed and around £60.00 to fit.

    I'd give them a ring as they sound WAY cheaper that AmD.
    #25
  27. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 4, 2004]
    Have just priced up R32 arbs ,much cheaper at around £150 for the pair inc vat all assorted rubbers and brackets from your local audi dealer.Not sure what diameter is on yours at the front but should be 14-15mm on the rear.Cheers Andy
    #26
  28. robthehungrymonkey
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    robthehungrymonkey Member

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    [Aug 4, 2004]
    Anyone have experience of the R32 arbs on an S3?
    #27
  29. Alonzo
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    Alonzo Member

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    [Aug 4, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    clcollins said:
    The Neuspeed ARB set-up is getting some good write up's here. For me it looks expensive, whilst I was at Awesome GTI I asked whet they could recommend. For my car, an A3 1.9 TDI Q, they said the R32 rear and S3/TT front, what do you think?????

    As a post all says in this thread, do it once, do it right.

    What are the dimensions of the ARB's on my car at present????

    Cheers, Christian.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So R32 rear and S3/TT front is the way to go with an A3 TDI Q?
    This is just out of interest as i,m changing my car soon and wont be doing the mod.
    Cheers
    Danny
    #28
  30. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    [Aug 24, 2004]
    A fair few of the TT chaps have just started doing this mod, by adding the R32 19mm RB and all say it has transformed the handling, but bearing Glens wise comments in mind I am going to go for the front and rear neuspeed setup though.

    Questions is - is there anything I could possibly not like about this mod (I know its a strange question)? A friend says I should do the rear first incase I dont like the front and rear setup...but if the Neuspeed stuff makes my car handle more like a R32 then I would be ecstatic.

    Also are the Neuspeed stuff 'better' than the VAG items? I take it they come with poly bushes?

    Dunc
    #29
  31. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Aug 24, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    A fair few of the TT chaps have just started doing this mod, by adding the R32 19mm RB and all say it has transformed the handling,


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Surely hard to tell in a TT...not much need for handling whilst tooling around the local wine bar!



    [ QUOTE ]

    but bearing Glens wise comments in mind I am going to go for the front and rear neuspeed setup though.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    A wise choice, made by a wise man.



    [ QUOTE ]

    Questions is - is there anything I could possibly not like about this mod (I know its a strange question)? A friend says I should do the rear first incase I dont like the front and rear setup...


    [/ QUOTE ]

    There is nothing to not like.
    Your ride quality is unaffected, the car just feels better...no understeer even when provoked, and no nasty surprises in the oversteer front either. Neutral...perfect. Do it. Do it. DO IT!


    I personally would not reccommend the rear only...having written a car off from having too much rear ARB and having it unload quickly at an inopertune moment on a wet back road...I'd say balance is the key...with a shift to dialing out the understeer.

    Just make sure you get the smaller of Neuspeeds uprated bars...or you'll end up with a very flat cornering understeer machine. Not pleasant.

    Balance is the key...much stiffer all round, with more stiffness at the rear to give the front some bite and help dial out understeer.



    [ QUOTE ]

    but if the Neuspeed stuff makes my car handle more like a R32 then I would be ecstatic.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    In my view, it makes the S3 handle better than an R32 as it has less weight high up over the nose and the Neuspeed front bar (from memory) is slightly smaller than the R32 front bar, assisting in killing understeer.
    I believe my S3 now handles better than a standard R32...which in it's self is a fine handling car.


    [ QUOTE ]

    Also are the Neuspeed stuff 'better' than the VAG items? I take it they come with poly bushes?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Better? Who knows...
    More expensive? Unfortunately, yes.

    The Nuespeed kit works. Period. It's proven, and coming with all the poly bushes you need, it tightens things up nicely...from memory, the VAG stuff results in a slightly different balance in ARB sizes - which can drastically affect the handling of the car.

    If you don't object to the cost of the Neuspeed stuff, I would not hesitate in saying it will absolutely transform your car.
    In fact, if it does not, you are welcome to turn up at my house and ream my ar5e with the rough end of a pineapple! (which I may or may no enjoy!)

    You know it makes sense....do what is proven to work...you know it makes sense. You will not regret it.
    #30
  32. jojo
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    jojo Looking for Boost! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 1, 2004]
    Just one question that I can't work out, how does the rear ARB effect the front end for grip? I understand how ARBs work and the effects of understeer and oversteer from uprating them due to reduced body roll in corners, but can't seem to grasp the rear end ARB effecting front end grip bit, know what I'm on about?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
    #31
  33. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 1, 2004]
    Uprating the rear ARB reduces the twist in the chasis meaning that the front end can stay more level and equally weight laidened.

    Think of a shoe box being twisted from either end. By reineforcing it, it becomes harder to twist and the base/structure becomes more level and harder to distort.......I think I got that out my head right, otherwise ignore me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
    #32
  34. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Sep 1, 2004]
    You're on the right lines Mike...
    As you say, a car chassis tends to pivot, if you will, around the diagonal...so as the driver turns into a tight right hand turn, the left hand front corner compresses as the right hand rear wheel unloads...watch a Clio or Mk1 GTI corner to see this - you'll see 3 wheel motoring!

    So, if you follow, you will see that the back wheel goes light (unloads) as the diagonally opposite front wheel loads up under cornering.

    If we can prevent the rear wheel unloading, then with modern stiff bodyshells being what they are, we can prevent the diagonally opposite front from compressing so much. Adding more rear anti-roll bar will stiffen up the rear, preventing the load transfer from the both loaded rear wheels whilst driving in a straight line, to the one loaded, one unloaded state I'm describing above...the by product being that the diagonally opposite front wheel will not load up (or the suspension compress, if you will) as much.
    This has the effect of keeping the tyre 'flat' on the road, preventing the tyre rolling onto it's sidewall, preventing the overly compressed damper from hitting the bumpstop and hence provide better grip. Better front end grip = faster cornering.

    Of course, in reality we need a bit of body roll to make the suspension work (what with chassis inbuilt roll resistance geometry etc) but if the roll can be accurately controlled, it's easier to set the chassis up for better grip...this is why all factors such as ARB stiffness, damper settings, spring rate, camber, castor, trye pressure, tyre compound etc are all important...change one and you can affect the rest!

    Did this help explain it?
    I hope so...chassis set up is a difficult subject to master, and even harder to describe...
    #33
  35. jojo
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    jojo Looking for Boost! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 1, 2004]
    Thanks chaps, much more clear now, as I'd always thought the rear ARB would only control the rear end of the car in the case of lift off oversteer or any other maneuvers where the rear end steps out or gets out of shape. Better start saving those pennies for an upgrade soon, as the standard suspension is having a hard time coping with chipped power. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #34

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