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Another hybrid conversion thread....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Welly, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 15, 2010]
    There are people using their diy ones like this.. without issue.

    the one I am mocking up comprises silicon and alloy.. Bend radii on alloy pipe is not tight enough for all alloy. there will be at least one portion which has 76mm silicon bend on it
  2. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Oct 15, 2010]
    I wasn't saying anything against that setup bill, was just saying that's how I've seen people do it.

    So will you be proudcing the tips to sell bill or is it a 1 off for welly?
  3. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 16, 2010]
    its a prototype for ones to sell yes.
    just waiting on my alloy reducing coupler to be finished
  4. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 16, 2010]
    OK - so fitting the manifold didn't go so well....

    Access = none. A complete nightmare of a job. 5 hours to remove 7 manifold nuts wasn't the best to be fair.

    Anyway. I've decided now to take the head back off after 800 miles.

    The manifold isn't the only reason for this however. The turbo is suffering from boost creep due to the wastegate channel not being big enough. Basically, at actuator pressure, the boost level will climb up over the rev range. The issue with this being that I have to set the UNOS that is being used to 23 PSI initial, and then it will climb to 25 over the mid range.

    Obviously, in an ideal word, it would hit 25, and then hold 25 for as long as it is able.

    So, the head will be coming off tonight, and I will be fitting the manifold whilst the head is off. Turbo will be off, and then going up to see Bill tomorrow for porting the wastegate, before it all goes back together. Getting it back together tomorrow would be nice, but not really necessary.

    Hopefully expecting it to be back together by early in the week - most likely Tuesday night....

    My advice on K04 manifolds, take the head off to do it. We could have head the head off and half back on in the time it took to remove 7 bloody bolts.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2010
  5. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Oct 16, 2010]
    Ok bill, youll have to keep us posted.

    Sorry to hear that it's not gone so good welly, hopefully youll have the beast up and running tomorrow :).
  6. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 16, 2010]
    It's all apart now, belt off, tensioner off ready to be reset.

    Turbo is off and ready for a trip to Bill's tomorrow for some porting action....

    Nice and smooth evening actually, almost relaxing after the stress of last night. Wish I'd just done this in the first place!!

    I've taken some pics of the 034 manifold fitted as well - will post tomorrow.
  7. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    I bet i'll have to do this then lol
  8. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    I would mate. Save yourself the stress of doing it in situ. It's simply not worth the hassle. Taking the head of is far easier.

    If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right and all that....
  9. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    Its making me think weather its worth doing all this or just going bt now
  10. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    Thats a question certainly worth giving some serious thought.

    I'm not all together sure how well the CR Hybrid would deal with the extra displacement of your engine to be honest - not sure it will be man enough.
  11. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    I was thinking the same now after the trouble your having and you just have a large port head and i have a 2.1 with a ported small port head that flows as well as a large port, the gas speed will be high in mine so i'm sure the turbo will not be man enough.

    Mine passes its MOT yesterday and i'm running it in so when its done i will have to think about this near the time
  12. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    Keep me posted welly on whats been done as i'm still working out the BT conversion
  13. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    okies.. small update.
    Wellys been fitting his 034 mani..
    whilst apart he brought the hybrid k04 along so I could port its wastegate as it was creeping under boost.

    Pictures below of whats been done and required.
    Std k04/Hybrid wastegate port
    [​IMG]

    Once ported by me
    [​IMG]

    Quite some difference :)

    A std K04 throat
    [​IMG]

    The ported Hybrid of Wellys
    [​IMG]

    and finally, side by side comparison of a K04 and the ported hybrid
    [​IMG]
  14. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    wellys turbo has 2 cracks in the exhaust housing!
  15. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    one is a line, one is a hairline crack yes,
    exchange turbos, rebuilt.
    non invasive crack mostly in the thick section I removed material away from. See bottom picture its no longer there. ;)

    dissimilar sections in castings will be the areas where higher stress's will occur, so to me, thinning this as part of the porting for flow process, will hopefully make things more reliable, as will the higher flowing manifold & lower egt's.
    We will see how it pans out.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  16. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Oct 17, 2010]
    I'm still thinking weather its worth me doing this and the 034 manifold or spending more money now and getting a GT3076r?
  17. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Clever stuff Bill, excuse my half cut one line reply last night, looks like top notch work.

    I'm surprised that CR havn't ported the wastegate in some ways, having built so many of these turbo's now surely they've encountered the boost creep issue before? where do you stand now with any form of guarantee from CR turbo's for the rest of the unit? Obviously you've greatly improved it, but could they perhaps use it as an excuse to void a warranty?
  18. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    they have been told by me on first running wellys to port the wastegate... they build the turbos, they dont map them or see how they run ever... so my feedback to them on as we go is continued development and evolution of the things.

    I fancy seeing what a hybrid with the larger turbine, + clipped would run... next one might have this spec to see.. (only when used on a hi flow manifold tho)

    The porting I have done, is something they themselves will do on future ones anyhow.
    turbo remanufacturers can always come up with a reason to void warranties.. sux, but thats how they are all too often
  19. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    you need to match your displacement and flow to a suitably sized unit..
    GT30R may go very well on yours.. did you do full valvetrain upgrade?
  20. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Good morning peoples....

    Let me open with bugger bugger plop plop arse.

    So, moving on.

    Engine is all back together now, worked my nads off to get it put back together last night so I could use it for work this morning.

    And all was going so well. Until I fired the engine up at about half 8. The gasketless manifold-turbo flange was blowing like a trooper. Bummer.

    Not sure currently of the cause of this - however there are 2 possibilities:

    1) It needs a gasket.

    2) The downpipe flange is contacting on the manifold and preventing the turbo and manifold from mating up properly.

    1 is easy. Fit a gasket, so I will be trying this first. There is a possibility that the flange simply isn't all that straight, and is allowing gas out.

    2, not so easy. Two options if this is the case. Use a thicker gasket to try and put some space in between the turbo and mani. Take the downpipe off and shave some metal off the flange itself.

    Neither of the two particularly hard to do, both just a pain in the chuff if we're being honest, and hassle I could have done without. After all the extra hassle this has been!! lol. Still, I shall take it on the chin and get on with it as usual.... :)

    I was considering just driving it, but I have decided against it to be fair.

    Anyway, some photos of the manifold fitted to my head:

    New Exhaust Mani Gasket:
    [​IMG]

    1 Fitted Manifold (And the bastard flange):
    [​IMG]

    OEM and 034 together.
    [​IMG]

    Bye bye OEM mani..... :bye:
  21. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Welly, have you used Velcro instead of a Head gasket this time, just in case, LOL
  22. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    OK, adding to this, here is my gasket dilemma....

    The 034 Motorsport maifold's collector is substantially larger than both the turbo's neck and the T-M gasket. Photo below to illustrate (Cheers Bill... :thumbsup:)

    [​IMG]

    As you can see from this, the mani is substantially larger than the T-M Gasket. So, realistically, the gasket needs to be ported.

    The next issue being that the manifold has now been fitted,and making a gasket to fit something you can't see won't be so easy... so I have to guesstimate via photographs.

    Here is my best guess!

    [​IMG]

    I think it's somewhere close, and I will have to grind it out and see what's what.

    Also going to invest today in a bendy inspection mirror so I can have a good look at what's going on down there...
  23. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Lovely lovely lovely! Looking good chap :thumbsup:

    Just out of interest (I know, not exactly a tuning/how much BHP can we get question), these are all mods to the turbo system on a 1.8T engine are they not? . . . so could this mean that, regardless of mods to the turbo, you could still stay off boost and simply achieve the same MPG as you did before/as any standard 1.8T S3 achieves?
  24. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Now that was just mean..... :(. But a good point, I didn't think of that..... lol.
  25. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Yep. I've been pottering it around lately as the fuelling isn't quite right and been getting 26.8 mpg average....
  26. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Thats really suprising CR do not have any turbo maps for the turbos they do. What sort of maximum airflow can a Hybrid K04 produce.


    From looking at your setup a GT30 does sound more suitable. You should try and flow your valvetrain first to see what airflow can be achieved through it.

    Lol how often do you stay off boost for welly.

    Nathan
  27. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    No nattie thats not what I said..
    "They dont map" any of the turbo's.... not that they dont have spec information on their compressor maps etc....
    "map" as in remap ;)
  28. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Result!!

    I took my mock up gasket seen above down to Longlife in Berkeley and they are going to make me one out of their exhaust mani gasket material this afternoon... Bargain!

    Also, the three turbo bolts wound out this time without bringing the heli coils with them... Looking forward to getting my gasket and fitting... :)
  29. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    My bad, didnt read it properly. Im doing my final year project on my S3 and looking at turbo mapping now and I need to get a standard K04 and possibly a BT compressor map at some point in the near future.

    Do you have any compressor maps for the hybrid K04 to upload by any chance Bill.

    Nathan
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  30. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Them 3 bolts are a right pain in the ass. Audi have revised them though as the new ones I bought had longer heads on them so the socket doesnt slip as easy.

    Nathan
  31. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Not so much that that's the issue. I have been using the revised ones.

    What happened when I unbolted the turbo last time was that rather than the bolt unwinding from the helicoil that's in the K04 Turbos, it was in there so tight it actually unwound the bolt AND the helicoil from the turbo. This leaves you with the bolt stuck in the manifold.

    And that sucks, quite frankly. It is a royal pain.:mad:
  32. Speedy Steve
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    Speedy Steve Active Member

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Favoritism how come i didnt get that?:asskicking:
  33. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Your's didn't suffer from it mate for some reason. We were talking about this the other day.

    Your maps reflect that there is no boost creep with your turbo, as the 26 PSI the MBC is set to, holds until the turbo starts to run out of puff towards the later revs. Yours was set at 26, then dropped down to the 22-21 psi region. which is fine.

    With mine, the boost creep was quite bad. In contrast to your turbo, we would have to set the MBC at 23 PSI, it would creep up to 25 PSI towards the mid range, and then drop to the 22-21 region towards the later revs.

    Obviously, with a ported wastegate, I will be able to run 25 on the MBC and it will hold, like yours does until it starts to give up.

    Don't feel left out dude...
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    not favouritism, just locality.. and wellys motor aspires to your power levels..
    I did'nt see creep on yours for some reason.. (possibly intercooler and head differences)

    anyhows... what about that wmi it desperately needs !
    :D

    ran a.n.other hybrid'd car sunday.. with wmi.. 305-309bhp/280lbft consistently with WMI working on 50/50 mix
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  35. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    And plus I took the thing back off myself to have it done, after fitting it once.....
  36. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    yep, that makes a huge difference, as I just dnt have time with a workshop full of cars for BT conversions currently.
  37. Lemon S3
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    Lemon S3 Alex

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    I know you're getting one made....but to get the right size hole on your gasket, get a piece of paper and place it over the manifold hole and press on the edges with your finger to crease the paper then just cut round the creases...voila, a template :cool:
  38. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    And this is what I would normally do..... However.... The manifold is currently fitted to the head, on the car, upside down, with a turbocharger covering the hole.

    Thus making any sort of template is impossible. :(
  39. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    OK - results are in.

    The gasket Longlife did for me was just the job. 3mm thick (wow!), and made of a composite of pure carbon and stainless steel. Not too shabby.

    The thing looked a bit rough around the outside edges, but the lad who did it was saying what a pain in the arse they are to make. Only cost me a tenner in the end.

    Photos:

    OEM and Custom gaskets
    [​IMG]

    3mm thickness.
    [​IMG]

    OEM and custom gasket overlay - hole they made inside is spot on.
    [​IMG]

    Is now running with no blowing manifold..... So far so good anyway,

    Still awaiting my injectors though....:mad:
  40. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 18, 2010]
    Since I had a photo to illustrate what I was talking about here ^^, I thought I'd add it in....

    [​IMG]

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