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Another hybrid conversion thread....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Welly, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 11, 2011]
    my primary designs equal length mani was 1.2mm wt
    100% reliable, but it was made by F1 fabricator

    not comparing xs power skilz to primary designs tho... for obvious reasons

    there just is'nt much choice in k04 exhaust manifolds sadly
    very much fingers crossed the xs-power one lasts for welly

    and re egt's, log your block 112 when doing some power runs and think wmi is your friend!
    should be std fitment on every remapped k04 imho, they run so so hot otherwise
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  2. JS1500
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    JS1500 Howdy

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    [Feb 11, 2011]
    So, brakes and suspension next Mr Welly?!
  3. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Feb 11, 2011]
    yeah, obviously an engine with upgraded rods would be the better engine for us but the fact that the engine was assembled when every component was new and made to fit and mate together as one, then you unbolt everthing after x amount of miles and wear fit new parts and rebuild to a lesser quality im not saying poor workmanship just because your now matching new and old not as it was intended... its like factory paint work is always a much better job and better quality regardless of how good the bodyshop is.... this is all imo of course,
  4. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Feb 11, 2011]
    Kev a LCR on SCN got 304bhp on a stage 2 map I think, not sure the mods but 100% defiantly a standard K04.

    Welly, was that UK 300 tuned because I thought they come out with around 240bhp/250lb-ft standard. Dont think the 300 signifies 300bhp. I just got FK coilies and for the money they are alright, greatly improved the cars handling.
  5. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Feb 11, 2011]
    1.2mm is going to be a fail.. with all respect it just is not thick enough to last....stainless has a nasty habit of corroding itself ...not seen everyday/normaly but at them temps ????
  6. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 12, 2011]
    Well that depends how you rebuild it surely?

    If you simply remove the head, jam some rods in and button it back up then you may have a point, but so long as you measure everything, and ensure its all within Audis specs then whats the problem? Due to the additional heat, the looseness of a worn engine can sometimes work to your advantage too, and often high powered engines are built with slightly larger than normal tolerances anyway.

    If you go the whole hog, rebore, polished/ground crank etc etc then the entire build should easily meet or exceed Audis original specifications.

    End of the day, any engine with some miles under its belt is no longer as it left the factory anyway... The 100k motor i'm rebuilding just now has a lip on the bores for instance, but i've just had it into the machine shop and the bloke recons its still within factory tolerance. You cannot possibly suggest that my rebuilt engine with new rings and bearings is somehow going to be a worse motor than how it was before the rebuild?

    To use your paintwork analogy, its like trying to suggest the 10 year old stonechipped/roadrashed paint on the bonnet is better than a freshly resprayed bonnet, because its original?!
  7. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Feb 12, 2011]
    i see your point and do agree, think i have kind of lost what im trying to say along the lines aswell though. but with in taking the engine apart your disturbing lots of other parts such as turbo, manifolds water hoses etc etc... and alot of the time once its been touched it can take a while of replacing much more parts after the rebuild has been complete, i guess this is more in line with when doing a turbo conversion etc where you constatly have little hurdles to clamber over?? i do agree an uprated engine is a better engine though just cant seem to get across my point haha, but if it aint broke etc etc
  8. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 12, 2011]
    I think i can see what your getting at, disturbing stuff often causes other issues, but then these cars are 10 years old or more in some cases, so a lot of parts on the engine bay etc are getting to the point of needing fettled with just to keep the motor working normally anyway!

    I guess thats diversity for you though. Some folk will be happy with a remap, some folk want 500hp and a turbo borrowed from their local train depot. Similarly, some folk go to town on the bodywork, others barely touch it and wash it once a month with a scabby sponge.
  9. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Welly

    Terrific thread; I've greatly enjoyed reading through it. Your experimentation with various manifolds and the results you reported were surprising and very interesting. I know it's not fashionable for me to say that I favor the use of that stock cast manifold, but your findings here really do illustrate the pros and cons even-handedly.

    Thx
  10. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    LOL. so they are. No wonder it was ****!! Had all the Prodrive gear so not sure about tuning. Even with the Prodrive kit, they rarely get above 270 ish.
  11. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    OK. Conclusions based on whats happened....

    Costs:

    The K04 hybrid is the most cost effective big power solution to be completely honest. It is NOT a bolt on and go mod as we have seen. Supporting mods are essential to getting it to work properly.

    The turbo is very good value in itself, however once you bolt on all the other essentials - the costs begin to skyrocket.

    Is very slightly more cost effective than going for a big turbo setup - but to be fair not a great deal.

    However power is comparible with the GT28RS - so swings and roundabouts I guess.

    CR Turbos Hybrid V1 vs V2:

    Following surging issues with some of the version 1 turbos - CR have produced what has been dubbed the version 2 hybrid.

    The difference with these is a slightly smaller comp wheel (2280 as opposed to the V1's 2283), and a clipped turbine wheel to reduce spool time.

    These V2 turbos seem to be ones to be avoided. They have proven to be less efficient when compared to the V1 turbos - personally, I would avoid these based on Robbie's experience.

    Supporting Mods:

    Supporting mods are pretty obvious for the most part.

    The hybrid requires: FMIC, 3" downpipe and sports cat/decat, 440c or larger injectors, Stage 3 mapping, full exhaust system, Forge TIP, H Beam forged Con Rods.

    Other things that have proven to be worth buying are the Badger5 3" TIP & Jetex filter, High flow exhaust manifold, Forge UNOS manual boost controller, Water Methanol Injection.

    Exhaust Manifold Options:

    Several option on the market at the moment, however none of which are ideal. Its a 'make your own mind up' thing really..

    034 Motorsport manifold - $399 - 1st versions prone to cracking from thermal expansion. Awaiting on V2.

    TSR K04 Manifold - ~£800 - Very good and proves thus far to be reliable - however large runner add spool time, and cost is extreme.

    XS Power K04 Manifold - £285 or less - Equal length and flows very well. Very good cost. Downsides being that the pipework is thin, and it isn't the easiest to fit.

    JBS K04 Manifold - £450 - Not available on the market yet.

    The key with keeping these manifold in A1 condition seems to be NOT running too much boost - also WMI really does help. Excessive EGTs will kill them over a period of time. Sometimes, boost is not your friend.

    Mapping:

    An absolute must. Hybrids will not work well on Stage 2 maps, as the delivery will be very very spikey.

    Stage 3 maps, preferably live maps, are the way forward. Bill @ Badger5 has done mine as you all already know.

    Rods:

    To achieve the figures these hybrids are capable of - YOU NEED THEM. Don't fit them at your own peril....

    These little blowers are capable of producing BIG torque spikes, and that is what will kill the OEM rods.

    It has also been shown that it is possible to take them past the 300 lb/ft mark, which is also danger zone for OEM rods.

    WMI:

    Not a requirement but strongly recommended. Keeps exhaust gas temperatures down whilst improving octane level of the fuel.

    Allows for more timing to be dialled into the engine, which improves performance.

    Kits vary in price, but the current one to go for seems to be the AEM kit - around the £300 mark.

    You can also d this on a budget (like me) and keep you eyes peeled on ebay. You can very much make your own kit if needs be. I have used the screenwash tank, and piped from there simply - working well so far.

    I am using a Devil's Own D05 nozzle for injection - this seems to be ample.

    Power (the big one):

    The hybrid turbos seem to be able to comfortably pass the 300 BHP mark.

    I have seen a variety of power outputs from these turbos, however without a high flow manifold they seem to be up to around 315 bhp at the most.

    I have seen ~300 bhp on an OEM manifold, 332 bhp on an 034 manifold and 344 bhp on the XS power manifold.

    As it stands not, we are seeing 338 bhp and 307 lbfts on the dyno running 22 psi and WMI. The highest figure from a hybrid so far (as far as I know), however it does go to show what these little things will do when you give them the ability to breath.

    "It's all about the flow".

    Coming to the end of a project is always a sad time for me - as I won't know what to spend my time and money on... :think:

    However I hope that this little journey has been entertaining for you, and informative as well. There have certainly been some ups and downs over the last few months.

    Hopefully it will be nice to give my wallet a rest.

    A big thanks to Bill again - a legend in his own right. He has been relentless in getting the best power that can be had out of this car, and for that I owe him big time!

    He did take the car out for a spin yesterday, and came back having blown a coil after about 4 mins or so... Came back to the unit for replacements... Shows how he drives.... :p
  12. Plunky
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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Awesome read Welly!

    whats next then? leave it alone and enjoy it or move on to a different area? brakes, suspension?
  13. s3 Hoggy
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    s3 Hoggy Whats going on???

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Well done Welly, if you ever get bored we can swop engines and we can see how you get on with a BAM!
  14. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Excellent write up mate, to wrap up whats been a right rollercoaster of a thread, and a very interesting read.

    So whats next for the bumlebee mate? There's no way you will be able togo a month without getting the shakes and starting getting the urge todo soemthing to it, haha.......
  15. badger5
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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    what are you saying??? I just dont get your post at all? Wellys got Forged rods installed... STONGER than OE, no lesser quality??
    I clearly dont understand what you are trying to say here..... BUT, forged rods, in a 210/225 modded motor is a seriously good investment for piece of mind motoring when running > std power
  16. badger5
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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Dyno Lottery applied of course.
    Havign driven wellys on the road yesterday, its rapid without doubt! the numbers on the dyno dont do it justice. spinning wheels in 2nd in dry from shear power and urgency
  17. badger5
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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    My Primary Designs one has lasted 2 race seasons..... so I would have to disagree with you.
    thickness is no guarantee of reliability alone... quality of manufacture and material choice to beguin with will have equal influence to the reliability as well as external factors on mounting, supports etc etc
  18. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    Hope your right bill of course......
  19. finesse
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    finesse Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    good work welly, I give it a month & you'll be craving mooooooooooooar power

    [​IMG]

    why would he get on any different with a bam ?
  20. s3 Hoggy
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    s3 Hoggy Whats going on???

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
  21. badger5
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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    as said Dave, not comparing my primary designs mani with Wellys XS power one... no way hosay!
    £1200 is what mine cost me...

    I think we all hope for the best on wellys... given his run of luck on manifolds etc
    everythigns crossed for him
  22. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Feb 13, 2011]
    i have looked into rod failure and from the majority that have failed most have occured on engines that have blocked/partly blocked oil pick ups resulting in hot spots on the big end bearings of the snapped rod, this however is only from what i have been able to find out via internet as of yet mine have not bent/snaped nor have any 1.8ts i have seen through my work so havent got 1st hand experiance like yourself. I fully expect forged rods to be stronger and not lesser quality than OE thats a given but to fit them so much has to be disturbed which results in to many niggily other faults imo for me to want to bother stripping my own personal engine for the peace of mind.

    Credit to you welly for doing alot of trial and error on this project and hope it all goes well from here on in for ya :thumbsup:
  23. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 14, 2011]
    Just for reference, here is a schematic of how my WMI is set up. You can see the pics of the install above, but this is how it actually connects together...

    [​IMG]
  24. coyle
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    coyle From Show... to GO

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Ive quoted the pics so people wont have to look through the thread to see what im talking about..

    just some realy quick questions, the pipe which went from EVAP to the TIP and TB, which you have capped off, rather than just cap it off, can i just remove the whole pipe? its realy long, and follows the strut brace, then goes to near the rocker cover and back accross, so in the interest of cleaning the bay, which is my main aim, cant i just remove it completely?
    If I can, and im sure i can, what do I have to cap of on the Tip/ TB?

    I know its sort of welded along side the pipe from the header tank so they run together, but im replacing that pipe with silicone, so could just remove both of these half metal half rubber lines.

    Secondly, welly, you have left the EVAP solenoid connected, did you cut the solenoid part off? or just remove the whole part from the EVAP can and connect that?

    Help appreciated.. asap lol
  25. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Yes, you can remove that pipe if needs be. To cap off the TB, just use a piece of silicone and a bolt with a jubilee clip - old skool fix.... :)

    The EVAP solenoid remains connected - says that in photo 2.
  26. coyle
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    coyle From Show... to GO

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    ok good stuff, so cap of TB and TIP yeh?

    sorry i didnt make myself clear, i know the solenoid has to stay connected, what i meant was, how much of it do you have to keep? coz that bits quite big, as where the solenoid goes in is the bit where the other pipe is plumbed in. so i meant do you need the whole circular part, or can the solenoid be separated from the rest of the bit?
  27. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    I kept the whole circular bit - it was easier that way to be fair. Just cable tie it out of the way.
  28. coyle
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    coyle From Show... to GO

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    welly, just another quick thing.
    ive bought a metre of fuel hose silicone:

    8mm 5/16" Silicone Fuel & Oil Hose Flouro 1 Metre Blue on eBay (end time 25-Feb-11 16:17:56 GMT)

    I was going to use it to replace the 2 short rubber hoses which go on to the fuel rail. Didnt think that would be a problem, but ive not read you arent supposed to use it for constant immersion in fuel or oil.
    Samco sell some hose which is for constant use of fuel but its £65 a metre?!?!

    Would i be ok using the stuff I have? anyone know or have an alternative
  29. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 18, 2011]
    Don't use silicone hose for fuel. Deffo not.

    I'd stick with the rubber hose personally.
  30. coyle
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    coyle From Show... to GO

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  31. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
  32. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Feb 27, 2011]
    Welly, what type of figures do you think you would have had from having a smallport head fitted? Also, would fitting a R32 TB would gain you anything?
  33. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Feb 28, 2011]
    Hard to say mate to be honest - not sure if they would have been much lower than they are now with the WMI fitted. The large port allows for more native timing advance and flows a little better, that about it.
  34. Speedy Steve
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    Speedy Steve Active Member

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    [Feb 28, 2011]
    Prob something close to my figures id have thought. i just need more pennys to do WMI
  35. JMB
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    JMB New Member

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    [Mar 16, 2011]
    Any new on how the Xs power manifold is holding up?
  36. RobbieRolex
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    RobbieRolex Member

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    [Mar 16, 2011]
    No news is good news i guess...
  37. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 16, 2011]
    I think Welly is over at Bill's today using a ramp to change the prop he had a problem with the other week... He hasn't hinted on being any probs with the mani to me as yet but guess he may be driving the car a little gingerly until he gets the new prop on...

    <tuffty/>
  38. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Mar 16, 2011]
    Na, I've been caning it to be fair....

    I'm not saying anything, I don't want to open up a can of jinx....
  39. JMB
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    JMB New Member

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    [Mar 17, 2011]
    Sounds like it could be a good move then, I use to own a 2003 8L S3 back in 2005 was a good car had fair bit of work done on it at Stealth Racing, H&R comfort coilovers, APR turbo back exhaust, Forge front mount with a GT2876 with one of Vince's custom maps made 347hp on their RR I sold the car in 2006 with 33k on the clock wonder if its still about???...

    My reason for asking about the manifold is I have an AMK lump in a MK2 Golf and I have a fresh CR Stage 2 turbo to go on so considered putting one of the XS race manifolds on while its apart but a bit apprehensive of the wall thickness????

    But It been a few weeks now and nothing bad to report so might just bite the bullet....
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  40. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 17, 2011]
    347hp from a gt2876 sounds a bit weak?

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