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Another hybrid conversion thread....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Welly, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Welly, im going to throw another spanner into the works lol, with good intentions though. Have you thought about maybe heat coating your charge pipe. I have seen it done on a few 8P S3's with gold (I no thats going a bit far) but could use some normal heat wrap and see what it does for your intake temps.

    Nathan
  2. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Gold? :faint:

    Thats not a bad shout, and certainly an easy one to test. Would be a case of a logging runs on the same day under the same driving conditions - and fitting the heat wrap in between to make it a fair test.
  3. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Ye, gold is a very good heat reflector but very expensive. I have seen silver heat reflective tape but it looks like tin foil. I think I might give it a go as its only cheap ish and should be easy to test and get a good idea if it works.

    Nathan
  4. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
  5. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Ye, but I might get blue to match my silicone hoses lol. I think it would be good for any S3 FMIC or SMIC setup to try and get a few more degrees of colder air into the engine, something to think about.

    Nathan
  6. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    whatever
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  7. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    I dont think so:
    not snobby, not clicky, but some peeps just continually asking stupid stuff just grinds & wastes some folks time, who do try to help, when answers are offered to then be asked yet more stupid questions... clearly not having listened.
    Some, it seems cannot be helped, and for them, I am more than happy to ignore from now on. Makes it easier for me.
  8. Imteyaz
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    Imteyaz 6th Gear

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    I'm gonna throw another spanner in the works - have you considered ceramic coating the exhaust manifold Welly? No doubt it would help keep under bonnet temps down but I don't know if the there is a flip side to it (heat insulation / retention causing manifold cracks possibly or would it be the other way around and protect from cracking?)

    Seeing as you are the nominated forum guinea pig (ok, so nobody nominated but you get the idea) maybe this could be your next move (along with 24 carat gold heat wrap on the charge pipe).:yellowrs4:
  9. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
  10. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    I think welly should open up a paypal account so folks can contribute to his "development" on your behalves
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  11. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Fair point, as it's sucking warm air in anyway. Plus heat will naturally conduct up the piping anyway, which the tape won't help.
  12. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Whilst I would love to try this, ceramic coating is not cheap. Also, the head would have to come back off for this to be an option - so it won't be happening any time soon to be fair.

    The reason I say this is I still have all the cuts on my hands from trying to remove the manifold with the head in situ. I said it immediately after, I would NEVER attempt to do that again.

    The time it took to not get the manifold off was the same amount of time I got the head off and back on again in.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  13. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    LOL. I may set up my own registered charity.... You'll see me outside Tesco on a Saturday morning with a collecting can....
  14. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    i know id be very interested in buying an adapter off you bill if you plan to mass produce, im sure many others will too!

    the gold charge pipe idea..... tempting! that would be real engine bling lol.
    oh and im a student too and dont go the pub and drink very rarely. were not all stereotypical lol.
  15. Madeley
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    Madeley Member VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Hehe, penny for the little yellow car..... nice bit of turning bill.
  16. jimes
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    jimes Member

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    off topic but does anyone use methanol mix on their s3's seems popular on scoobies...
  17. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Ok Bill, your prerogative....
    Congrats on the new development, are you hoping for quicker spool, or more bhp/torque? or both, what gains have the seat guys had?
  18. Lemon S3
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    Lemon S3 Alex

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Bill...regarding the 3" tip again, could you not of used 2 90degree bends of ally with silicone joiners?
  19. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Alloy bends aren't tight enough really... 90 deg silicon is tighter than alloy... needs to be tight at the turbo from what I have seen...

    <tuffty/>
  20. RobbieRolex
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    RobbieRolex Member

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    [Oct 27, 2010]
    Off topic yes, i am using 49/51 methanol/water mix on my setup, i have pratically the same setup as Welly just having some issues with tuning the car to its potential.

    EGT's are kept in check with minimal knock.I would recommend it.

    Back to the real topic now.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  21. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    I don't think that's off topic at all. WMI is a very good thing to use with these setups, solely because they get very very hot, very very quickly.

    It's something I plan to look at in the future, however for the time being, mine isn't too bad heat wise, and is reasonably consistant.
  22. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Bloody bugger it.

    Driving to work this morning, I can hear the familliar sound of a boost leak....

    And there was one. lol

    The turbo to charge pipe hose (the red one) has got a whacking great split in it sadly. It has looked a bit ropey for a while and the charge pipe being on and off like a tart's knickers lately hasn't helped matters.

    Just phoned Forge, am picking one up shortly which is made of a combination of flourosilicone compound and is nomex reinforced.

    This is the one:

    Forge Motorsport | Alloy Fabrication

    Cheap though, it isn't.
  23. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Saw that coming :)

    <tuffty/>
  24. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Same here - was hoping it would hold on though. :(
  25. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Adding to that, the OEM one from Audi is as expensive as the Forge replacement...
  26. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    yes.. its done on 225 LCR's and other vag's I work on.. Very effective!
    talkingwater meth injection
  27. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  28. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    on others, they gained airflow across the board, spool was no worse but I dont know if it was better..
    one lcr hybrid with its diy 3" tip which inspired me to make one ran over 300bhp from 20psi boost, better than any other hybrid I have yet seen.. power per psi it was excellent, and on stock exhaust manifold also, and without wmi or any "extras" aside from fmic, downpipe etc

    We will have to see on wellys, as I have the most dyno's and logs on his car to show what does and does'nt work.. We should see gains. We will have to see.
  29. badger5
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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    yes.. thats one of the options I am contemplating.. a 3" joiner with elements bristling out of it for the required connections and onto another 90 elbow.
    I am making these connection weldments into the straight portion of the 90 alloy bend, so I can if req'd cut off the bend down to the straight section and convert it to the 2 x 90 silicon bends if required..
    Not sure yet whats the best package..
  30. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    totally agree - wmi rocks!
    uber consistent runs whenon the dyno with it... and more timing can be had.. great stuff.
  31. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Is this 3" adaptor mainly only for hybrid setups as stage 1 or 2 dont really suffer from cavity, or could it be installed on a stage 1 or 2 S3 and see gains or is it pointless unless your experiencing cavity issues.

    I have a problem with my red turbo hose welly, mine not staying on thats my problem.

    Nathan
  32. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Bill/Welly, forgive me here!

    WMI is to keep temps down, yes?

    So say you have two hybridT engines, Welly's running the 304 manifold and A.N.Other with a standard manifold... Would there be less need for Welly's to run WMI, due to the better design of the 304 manifold? Or are the two not linked?
  33. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Gains on std K04 have been reported. combined with descreened maf on the ones I have heard about.
    more info on SCN forum
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    WMI is cooling and or additional octane.. depending on what % water meth you use.
    most folks I see are running 50/50 mix, which is both cooling intake change temps and adding 115octane methanol, which in itself allows more timing to be employed. If you use low or no % meth then you will benefit from from intake aircharge cooling, but not as much in cooling terms and without the meth the ign timing would not likely be able to be advanced.

    WMI k04 cars run very consistently, where their non wmi cousins get hot very quickly.

    as an example, on the wmi car's I have run, charge temps rarely exceed mid 20'c regardless of ambient temp and can allow additional timing to be dialed in.. the most I have seen (on my own ibiza) was 12 degrees additional timing), most commonly 6-8 degrees on others I have done. every 3-4 degree's of timing can yield ~10bhp from what I have seen,

    sample dyno plot of 3 hybrids for info. only 1 of these being wmi enhanced.
    middle one bk04hrf is the chemically enhanced one - orange line
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    regards
    bill
  35. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Edited as I have just seen Bill's reply....

    The 3" adaptor fits a std K04 (as well as the hybrids) so the TIP could be used for any K04 turbo'd S3 at any stage of tune... the initial tests will be done on Welly's car and of course the results of that will be relative to that setup...

    Would imagine a test of the TIP on a stage 1 or 2 S3 is in order to be able to say what the real world benefits would be...

    Stage 1 and 2 levels of tune can and do suffer from cavitation though... mine did on a stage 1 Custom Code map and I had a silicone TIP....

    <tuffty/>
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  36. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Thanks Bill, quite a sizeable difference on those graphs with WMI... notes made!

    So on a standard car, this could also have an effect, but for the cost, it's presumably better to go with the cake mixture (hybrid, bigger turbo, DP, TBE, FMIC and mapping) before adding the cherry, as it were?
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    no I think the 3" TIP would be as much relevant for remapped k04 cars as it would for hybrids.. Same rational as people change from stock TIP's to the silicon ones.. 3" one is the next step or first step depending on what you have or have'nt done.
  38. mk1chopper
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    mk1chopper Missing the S3

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    On the cooling front, would there be any benefit in pluming in some washer jets to spray onto the intercooler, similar to the setup found on the P1 scooby? Would think this would be a cheap mod if you could t off the existing screen wash system.
  39. RobbieRolex
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    RobbieRolex Member

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    Here is my WMI install on and LCR for the interested parties, pages 8 and 9 with the results.Its surprisingly easy to do and you get good results form the amount of cash you have to spend, Bill is selling this kit and i personally recommend it, We added a lot of advance timing on the top end once this was setup and working correctly.

    LCR W.I.P UPD 13/10/10 WMI, Hybrid setup tuned, result, Not good! - Page 8 - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

    And just to add to Bill info that wasn't mentioned, before i would heat soak bad, stop/go traffic in the summer months the car was just a big heat sponge, while my FMIC was working it a$$ off once temps got out of control under the hood it found it very hard to recover unless i got on a motorway and did 120kph for a few miles, this where i most enjoy WMI, heat soak recovery is almost instand.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  40. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 28, 2010]
    It does work, as we spray water onto coolers on the dyno to help them cool down..
    SHC of water is somethign like x4 of air so it does help heat exchange. WMI is far more effective for cooling however

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