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Another hybrid conversion thread....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Welly, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    Getting tired of tickling the S3 around now :( Roll on tomorrow! lol.

    On the plus side, quarter of a tank has lasted AGES and my MPG is up to 27.1.... Not all bad I guess.
  2. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    could you video things, like a grand finale, on the rolling road, then you could do a shot of the garage door opening, get some smoke machines and roll out slowly to some epicly dramatic music.
  3. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    And tonight Matthew, I'm going to be.....
  4. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    Burning through fuel like you wouldn't believe ;)
  5. alijames
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    alijames Active Member

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    Just spat out my tea reading that one!!!:laugh:

    Cheers,
  6. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    That sounds about right dude to be fair.... Especially with my well known right foot.

    I think I am personally responsible for global warming... Good job I like warm summers. :thumbsup:
  7. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    Still thinking about the turbo, as much as i would like to go GT35 i'm still want to use the car every day and don't want it to be too laggy so it might be the GT3076R?
  8. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    I am no expert in the field but I would have thought a 3076 would need a larger A/R hotside to make use of the larger comp wheel... tbh using your power expectation would be a good start point... a 3071 with 0.64 hotside and external gate would give you decent spool and plenty of air for your engine... (as much as my limited knowledge on the subject would suggest)

    Anyhoo... back on topic of hybrid conversions :)

    Will see you tomorrow Welly mate... should be an interesting day :thumbsup:

    <tuffty/>
  9. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    Mr. Welly, what's happening with your standard S3 injectors at the moment? Might they be available for sale at some point in the future?
  10. rossbrownlee
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    rossbrownlee Ross_S4

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    Welly, what with you being an IT guy, expected you to go for something more like this....
  11. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    I just may....
  12. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 22, 2010]
    Inert your own joke here....

    That would be really useful though to be fair.... :think:
  13. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 23, 2010]
    Finished wellys finally today.
    Below K04 on its best ever run vs hybrid finished finally today
    [​IMG]

    Conclusions:
    034 mani is performing well, definately flows more, and runs cooler...
    compare before on stock mani it would go yellow hot after one run, and on 034, a dull red glow. If there were egt on his model, they would be lower.

    313-314bhp peak, with much greater consistency than I have seen on other non water meth cars on their stock manifolds.
    not a leap in top end power like i was kind of hoping for, but to me its the limit of turbos flow at this level. wellys runs no wmi, so some gains likely from the ole meth % contribution.

    another comparison across a few hybrids..
    2 of them lcr's, and wellys s3 (largeport/034)
    orange-TD_hybrid, wmi-lcr
    red-USA_hybrid, lcr
    blue-CRhybrid, wellysS3,largeport
    [​IMG]
  14. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 23, 2010]
    Well, what can you say at the end of a project...

    I plan to say lots, do sit down. lol.

    I say the end of the project, however we are yet to install the 3" TIP which should make for some interesting reading, but I may well open another thread for that.

    Firstly, and most importantly, should be the big thanks to Bill. This car has been a complete arsehole to map. The lack of wideband lambda combined with the constant issues with injectors etc have made it a bit of a headache for him, but he stuck with it with constant good humour despite the level of set backs. Also for lending me the Badger5 head bolt tool. Again. :wub: & :thumbsup:

    Lets start with the couple of photos I took today...

    [​IMG]
    The car, where it spent the whole day getting spanked... (and ruining my MPG average...)

    [​IMG]
    A slightly relaxed attitude to work... lol.

    So...

    It's making good power and drives well. As Bill said, the manifold has done the business with regard to EGTs, however didn't really increase the top end power. I think it would be fair to say that the power made would have been achievable (or close to at least) with the stock manifold. It has made a big difference with regard to heat, and ultimately reliability. Money well spent IMO.

    The 550s bought from IE have been just the job, very impressed with them I'd recommend them to anyone as they are well priced, and a direct fit into the 1.8T inlet manifold and fuel rail. No spacers required.

    Initial runs gave us close to the final output power with the MBC set to around 24.5 PSI peak. However, once the fuelling was nailed, Bill actually dropped that down to as low as the UNOS with the hard spring can give. This gave peaks of ~23 PSI. It did also allow there to be an extra 3 degrees of timing advance added, which ultimately gave it more power than previous runs, as well as keeping the heat level low.

    Lesson = more boost doesn't necessarily mean more power.

    Anyway, the drive home was great fun, it really does drive nicely. Peak power is well up from the previous versions of the map, at around 6650. This gives the benefit of it feeling very strong as you change into the next gear and flat the loud pedal back down.

    So, I'm a very happy boy :).

    My conclusions:

    VXR Injectors. One word, NO. Even if they could be made to provide enough fuel with the 4 Bar, 4 Bar = not good. For the extra 30 odd quid I paid, it's better to go with 550s, or even proper 440s. VXR injectors are good value for money - however this is less relevant when they don't actually do the job they were bought for.

    High flow manifold. Yes. Well worth the extra spend to keep the power more stable and ultimately more reliable. Not (on my engine at least) good for much extra power though. Word of advice - fit the damn thing whilst the head is off. Fitting in situ, whilst possible, is simply a large pain in the arse, and not worth the hassle. To be fair, with the hybrids, I would say this is a must as keeps EGTs down.

    Turbo Intake Pipe. And absolute must. Nuff said.

    Turbo itself. Very well made, although did need porting. Worth investigating before fitting. Bill has advised CR that this needs to be done, so future CR hybrids shouldn't be affected. Other manufacturers may not do this - as said, worth looking at BEFORE fitting, as it;s an arse to take it back off again. I know.

    Rods. Covered a million times. Yes. You need them. End of.

    Mapping. IMO these turbos should NOT be run on Stage 1/Stage 2 cars. They are very different in performance and characteristics to the K04, and therefore will not perform as a generic map expects. Running them on the maps, under N75 control especially, will provide enormous boost spikes that the ECU neither expects, nor is capable of handling. Not good. You will also not get the best from them, and can normally expect to see some 'spazzing out' of the ECU.

    Value for money. The big question - hybrid vs BT bang for buck comparison. Difficult one to answer to be truthful. The hybrid, when you include mapping and the high flow manifold, is comparable in hardware cost. This is where the similarity ends. What needs to be remembered here is that the K04 hybrid, and associated parts, are literally off the shelf items. They fit on, you bolt them together and off you go. BT conversions require large amount of fabrication work, lots of custom piping, as well as modification of various parts of the car itself. This is where the cost is incurred with BT work, and that is always worth bearing in mind.

    Power Output. IMO, these hybrids are good for up to and maybe a little above 320 with suitable hardware. This would include WMI and possibly a 3" TIP. This is yet to be seen or proven.

    Overall. Not a bad job to do, and if you are familiar with the 1.8T engine, a project for someone handy with a spanner I would say. Driveability is good, as there isn't the lag associated with BT applications, however, there isn't the top end grunt either so I guess it's a trade off... Impressed with the turbo capability based on the fact it's in the same shell as a K04.

    The bottom line is that the graphs say it all. 55 BHP gain. :thumbsup:
  15. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Oct 23, 2010]
    Well done lads.....
  16. jimes
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    jimes Member

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    [Oct 23, 2010]
    innovate lm1 wideband datalogger here if you ever need to borrow.......
  17. mk1chopper
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    mk1chopper Missing the S3

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    [Oct 23, 2010]
    lol paul looks like he could be in the ghost busters.

    Good to see it finished been a great thread to read.
  18. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 23, 2010]
    Well.... almost finished..... TIP to go.
  19. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 23, 2010]
    Also - realised I have in fact left my wallet at Bill's.

    [​IMG]
  20. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 23, 2010]
    hmmmm. pie
  21. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    Mmmm... Sixty-four Slices of American Cheese
  22. s3 Hoggy
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    s3 Hoggy Whats going on???

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    A good jobs done! Well done lads!

    Matt
  23. finesse
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    finesse Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    excellent build and thread. informative and humourous aswell. good job
  24. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    Top job welly. Great thread with excellent info, thanks Welly and Bill.

    Nathan
  25. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    Excellent stuff welly, really happy for you, looks like its all gone to plan for once :).

    Now hurry up and get that 3" tip fitted as i want one, lol.
  26. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    Is there a TIP for a non-esp S3?
  27. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    This will be a custom TIP dude, no that doesn't really apply.

    I would imagine that a normal S3 TIP for the 225 would be fine for a non ESP model.
  28. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    logs for folks to see.
    this was final map, last but one run on dyno.. and the one which is plotted on my dyno plot
    regards
    bill

    Code:
    Saturday	23	October	2010	17:48:48:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1	Data version: 20100831									
    8L0 906 018 N		1.8L R4/5VT     G   0002													
    
    	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
    		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
    	TIME					TIME					TIME				
    Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar
    
    	47.93	1360	75.2	4.92	21.78	48.23	0	0	0	0	48.53	1400	27	95.3	1040
    	48.83	1440	82	5.33	23.17	49.13	0	0	0	0	49.43	1640	24	95.3	1100
    	49.73	1760	87.2	5.74	28.94	50.03	0	0	0	0	50.33	2040	23	95.3	1190
    	50.63	2200	106.8	6.97	45.83	50.93	0	0	0	0	51.23	2440	21	95.3	1370
    	51.53	2560	122.6	7.79	62.06	51.84	0	0	0	0	52.14	2800	21	95.3	1670
    	52.44	2920	171.4	12.3	102.92	52.73	0	0	0	0	53.04	3240	21	77.6	2370
    	53.34	3440	191.7	15.58	141.31	53.64	0	0	0	0	53.93	3680	21	81.6	2500
    	54.24	3840	191.7	16.81	154.53	54.53	0	0	0	3	54.84	4120	20	83.5	2510
    	55.14	4280	191.7	16.81	179.42	55.44	3	0	0	3	55.74	4560	21	82.7	2530
    	56.04	4720	191.7	17.22	198.17	56.34	3	0	0	3	56.64	5000	21	83.9	2520
    	56.94	5160	191.7	17.63	222.33	57.24	2.3	0	0	2.3	57.54	5440	21	85.5	2500
    	57.84	5520	191.7	18.04	236.33	58.14	2.3	0	0	2.3	58.44	5760	23	89.4	2450
    	58.74	5840	191.7	17.22	243.58	59.04	2.3	0	0	2.3	59.34	6040	24	95.3	2430
    	59.64	6080	191.7	16.81	246.5	59.94	1.5	0	0	1.5	60.24	6240	25	95.3	2420
    	60.54	6320	191.7	16.81	247.31	60.84	1.5	0	0	1.5	61.14	6480	27	95.3	2400
    	61.44	6560	191.7	16.4	251.61	61.74	1.5	0	0	1.5	62.04	6760	28	95.3	2360
    	62.34	6840	191.7	15.58	253.64	62.64	1.5	0	0	0.8	62.94	7040	30	95.3	2340
    	63.24	7160	186.5	14.76	254.83	63.54	0.8	0	0	0.8	63.84	7360	31	95.3	2300
    	64.14	7480	178.2	13.94	252.33	64.44	0.8	0	0	0.8	64.73	7240	32	0	1750
    
    last but one dyno run/log
  29. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    Havent you emailed me about that before and didnt i give you all the pipe measurements etc?
  30. metricspaces
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    metricspaces Member

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    Not sure tbh. Are you talking about this TIP Awesome - Samco S3 Turbo Intake Pipe , and then modifying it? Was hoping someone had found a non-esp one that could just fit straight on without any messing about :)
  31. Barks
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    Barks Member

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    [Oct 24, 2010]
    All looks good Welly, I have been watchiing and waiting to see the results with great interest, its been a cracking read. I totally agree and like the fact that with a hybrid it is all off the shelf and can be installed at home with little to no fabrication.

    With the high flow manifold, head, down pipe etc and I know how every one dislikes the GT2860 eliminators.. but how do you think they would perform with your set up????

    Keep up the good work.
  32. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    Not sure, and a good question. Not personally a lover of the eliminator series - however I suspect it may well out perform the hybrid. Not by a huge margin though.

    EDIT:

    This is the only spec info I can find for the eliminator turbo - not sure how this compares to the hybrids:

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  33. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    Must admit, it was odd last night not having anything to do.... :(

    I ended up getting subjected to the X Factor with the girlfriend. I grant you that the car is a pain in the ass, but at least it doesn't make me watch utter gash TV.
  34. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    Looking at the logs compared to the dyno plot, it's amazing how close the MAF/0.8 rule seems to be!

    314bhp on the dyno, with mass airflow of 254.83g/s suggesting 318bhp, only 1.3% optimistic on the MAF readings!

    I'll be bloody chuffed if my bhp calculated from MAF logs is that accurate!

    Looking forward to seeing this at Bill dyno day welly :) it looks awesome!
  35. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    Oddly tho, and I have no answer for it at this time, is speedysteve's showed 280g/s on his hybrid .... but the usual calc did not equate as well on that one.

    will have to review it again next time I see the car..

    the other hybrids I have seen and dyno'd this past while were in the 250-260g/s region on the 300-315bhp levels
  36. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    What sort of air intake was Steve running dude? If you remember, I was running that cone filter once that ended up giving me higher intake readings due to the air speeding up on the way through. Changed to Jetex and that faded away.
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    Erm, you know what I cant remember.. think its the same Jetex cone?
  38. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    One to look at in the future then.

    Question - have you got any 3" silicone pipe and a 76mm coupler floating about? Going to try and elongate the distance from MAF to filter for testing purposes. Was going to try to get to Forge today but haven't made it in the end.
  39. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    I think so yes..
    my ally coupler is being finished now, so i will have it today

    got dyno work tonight tho, so unlikely to have much if any time to do much else than look at it on the mock up k04 on the bench
  40. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 25, 2010]
    OK, I've got presents for you anyway, so will be dropping by.

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