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Another hybrid conversion thread....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Welly, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    OK - well it's finally happened. It's been on it's way out for a long time but holding on grimly....

    The K04-022 has died on the S3. Still boosting OK at the moment so drivable, however, is spunking out more oil than BP's whoopsie.

    Took off the hot side charge pipe hose to the intercooler last night and found a rather large amount of smoke coming from it. Cold side piping was literally coated in a film of oil as far as I can see it. TB is brown. Smoke on overrun. Etc etc.

    It's all bad basically.

    However, on the plus side, this would appear to be the time to replace with a hybrid turbo me thinks. Everything else is now in place thankfully, and just in time to be fair.

    Requirements will be the turbo itself, injectors and suitable map. That's it. Aside from parts for changing.

    Plan is to take the head off. I don't care what anyone says, changing a K04 with the head still on on your drive is near impossible, and would be no fun AT ALL. So off comes the lid!

    Am beginning prep to be bent over by the bank manager AGAIN, funding this project won't be easy, but it's a necessary evil.

    So watch this space. I have booked the last week of September off (27th onwards) to get this done - I have loads of holiday left to use up anyway at work.

    And so it begins....
    #1
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  3. b1gdave83
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    b1gdave83 Member

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Good man!

    Are you getting bill badger 5 to re-map it?

    I'm still getting all the bits together for KO3 hybrid route, would good to get both cars remapped about the same time, so we could compare the results of the same tuner and dyno.
    #2
  4. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Yes mate, Bill will be doing the mapping for me. Only person I trust these days, being the skeptic that I am....
    #3
  5. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    I had a feeling you were going to go hybrid :) Looking forward to this thread as its been chipping away in the back of my head lol.

    Nathan
    #4
  6. Mings
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    Mings A3 1.8T Sport

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    For a second there I thought you meant Hybrid as in Toyota Prius... Haha... Seemed out of character! >_<
    #5
  7. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    LOL, I would rather be shot in the testicles I think. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart....
    #6
  8. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    OK, so I have done a cost break down of what I think this is going to cost me.... Total is looking around the £1500 mark as expected. I can make this available if people want to have a look see at the break down for future reference.
    #7
  9. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    I will alert Bill that you are on your way, so he can go back on holiday. "Snigger

    Tuffty best get his car out of there to make space for yours.lol

    Cr Turbo?
    #8
  10. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    I'll be doing it on my back in the rain at home as usual mate sadly. The old school way and all that.....

    And by that I mean in my nicely carpeted garage. If I can move the Quads to make room....
    #9
  11. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    And yes, a CR Stage 4 hybrid.

    LOL, have just made a new folder on my web server for all the photos I know will be taken on this one.....

    :)
    #10
  12. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Thats a budget I was thinking of. Could you post a break down on what you thinks needed and how much.

    Nathan
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  13. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Indeed I can....

    See here http://www.thewellings.co.uk/audi-sport/hybrid/K04-Hybrid-Breakdown.pdf. It's in PDF Format.

    Bear in mind that I would highly recommend rods being added to this if not already installed. Also necessary is a 3" downpipe and sports/de cat.

    I have both of these in situ already.

    Bear in mind there will be addition to this along the way I'm sure.
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  14. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Thats brilliant. Good, realistic cost analysis. Will you be going for a similar setup as speedy's is.

    What injectors will/are you be running. Take it you have them already because there not in your costings.

    Ye im shooting off to an exhaust fabricator now to see how much he would do a 3" downpipe and decat plus take out the silencer after the cat, hopefully around £250-300.

    Nathan
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  15. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Weird - I just looked at they appear to have disappeared.....

    I shall modify the file now.

    Astra VXR Injectors - 470cc
    #14
  16. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Have you thought about putting new injector seats in too. Seen a lot of these leaking.

    I would include new oil + filter too. I paid £22 last week for 5l quantum platinum 5w40 fully synthetic and genuine filter from TPS

    Nathan
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2010
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  17. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Will be something done if needed. I always build in a contingency amount for things such as that...
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  18. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    OK, file adjusted. Brings the pricing up a bit, but not a huge amount.

    Standard injectors have no hope whatsoever with those hybrids, so they are a requirement.
    #17
  19. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Literally serviced mine last week, so I won't be needing these.

    But agreed, for others, it's a must. I need a sump plug as I like to have a spare one kicking about, that's why it's in there....

    Don't forget, this is tailored to me....and will most likely change as the bits roll in, or I find it cheaper elsewhere.

    I will modify the sheet when the project is finished to include rods and a 3" downpipe as possibilities for those looking to do the complete upgrade. Think this will be really useful for people investigating having it done as a guide for pricing of parts.
    #18
  20. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Ye I agree. The main things for which most people wont have which you do is a;

    FMIC, 3" downpipe, Sports cat/decat, Rods.

    Theses are what I need and hopefully should be within £600, not including the rods as im 50/50 on them. Will see what sort of torque figures you get first.

    Nathan
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  21. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    don't forget Welly bent his rods before his car even got to its current level of tune... rods are being bent on std and stage 1 mapped cars these days regardless of torque...

    <tuffty/>
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  22. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    :iagree:

    Rods a must. It's a crappy job to have to do AFTER doing the turbo already, and the potential damage that can be done is horrendous. For the sake of ~£300 for the rods & £50 for shells, you'd be daft not to do it mate IMO.

    You avoid the potential £1000+ worth of damage.

    Short term gain for potential long term loss.
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  23. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    I see what your saying guys but I dont think I would change them unless I though it was absolutely necessary which im unsure of right now. Ye its good for peace of mind but is it 100% necessary.

    Apart from wellys S3 and about 2 other 1.8t I have not seen one break due to tuning or just wear and tear. I used to know of a guy with a BT Cupra R and he had standard rods and stupid boost levels 1.8 bar and its fine to this day (although havent seen it for few months).

    You could say for peace of mind you should include a clutch and flywheel but then your budget turns from something which was fairly reasonable to not worth it. Rods + shell and new bolts + clutch and flywheel are probably over a grand without labour.

    Nathan
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  24. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Thats fair enough dude, I won't argue as I see your point. It's just worth it IMO.
    #23
  25. Speedy Steve
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    Speedy Steve Active Member

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    I think the only reason you havent seen many bent rods is the fact that most people uprate them!

    Good on you Welly another thing to add to the list is WMI
    #24
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  26. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Agreed, but as usual, funds are the constriction.

    Also I will be able to run more timing advance because of the large port head. It flows much better than the small ports and doesn't produce anywhere near the amount of pinking.

    I still want WMI though. Big time.
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  27. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Be good to see someone actually install some WMI to an S3. Can Bill install launch control with his mapping.

    Nathan
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  28. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 14, 2010]
    Bill did a Leon with WMI IIRC.
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  29. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    On a hybrid k04 it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL and to ignore this is to reduce your odds to no more than 50/50
    Fine if you fancy gambling with a total engine right off when it does go wrong.

    eyes wide open when approaching these things, and doing the job properly, not half arsed

    clutch/flywheel are not catastrophic failures, they are wearing components, and on stock clutch which is not at the end of its life already, the hybrids work fine.. Not a correct comparison you are making chap
    #28
  30. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    All this talk of WMI... think I will have to sort a WMI group buy seeing as I am to have the WMI nozzle boss welded into my new charge pipes ;P

    <tuffty/>
    #29
  31. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    I know a chap who's running WMI on his LCR, stage 1 map, decat and FMIC. using uni settings he's removed some fuel to account for the meth, and added 7 degrees timing, and it's flowing 236g/s!
    #30
  32. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    Big smiles on Tuffty's face last night when that was mentioned - he then proceeded to attempt to hump his car...

    Thats impressive stuff. 7 degrees timing, thats madness. Can't wait to see what timing advance can be used on a large port with WMI. I was running 4.5 just running V Power.
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  33. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    Anyway - the plan has been decided.

    The turbo which I removed from the S3 I got from Liverpool is going to be the one going for hybridisation. Hot side is in very good condition which is amazing really considering it has clearly gotten hot. No visible cracks anywhere in the chassis so all good hopefully.

    Some of you may remember this being the turbo which had Tutankhamen's finger inside when I took it off....

    Here are a few photies (Old stock photos from when the turbo came off):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ^^ The foreign object that was found in the turbo which had jammed it...

    Anyway, I am aiming to get this sent off early next week, and hopefully have it back by the Friday. I may try and get it gone tail end of this week.

    VXR Injectors ordered from my mate at the local Vauxhall dealership. Given me permission to take them and test the fitment them before paying :).
    #32
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    most I have been able to dial in as extra timing was 12 degrees more timing from wmi... (on my ibiza racecar)
    on customer cars since, 8.25degree's is as much as I have been able to add from 50/50 wmi mix before seeing too much timing pull. AIT's dont go outside of 20'C region tho when in use.. on 30+'c ambient days - it rocks!
    #33
  35. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    ^^ Sign me up doc.
    #34
  36. Alex C
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    Alex C Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    could someone point me to somewhere where this timing pull concept is explained? I havent a clue
    #35
  37. Speedy Steve
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    Speedy Steve Active Member

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    Im in for the group buy on wmi
    #36
  38. badger5
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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h59.pdf

    google: ignition advance detonation

    block 020 in vag-com shows timing "correction factor", which as a rule of thumb you dont want to see higher than 6

    we have seen an additional 3-4 degrees of ignition timing contribute 8-10bhp power gain

    Too much ignition timing, can cause excessive cylinder pressures however, and very bad things happen.
    consider this example (1st hand experience): engine running 26 degrees of ign advance.. high octane fuel, 35psi boost, with in-cylinder pressure sensor (it was an engine dyno), seeing some 2600psi peak cylinder pressure.. Then adding 4 degrees more timing advance, in-cylinder pressure exceeded 3000psi, broke the sensor, and made another 12bhp on an already 780bhp.
    Issues with this kind of pressure are massive loads on pistons, rods, and cylinder head gasket and bolts.
    My own experience of running 33 degrees of advance on a very similar spec motor to the one I describe in the engine dyno (not my engine dyno) was lifting the head, blowing the headgasket, melting the cyl head, and stretching the Raceware Cyl head studs. Estimated >3000psi cyl pressures.. I was running 35psi boost peak, but by far the most destructive element was the cylinder pressures and ignition advance run.. No detonation was present at any point.. BUT, it still ruined the engine from lifting the head.

    So... when people say my extra boost broke /bent my rod, more likely was more boost pushed the cyl pressures up with too much timing for the additional boost, and then, the cylinder pressures had their effect..

    think of it like this..
    81mm piston crown diameter.. 7.96 square inches of surface area
    2600psi cylinder pressure is 20,698lbs pressure = 9.4tonnes of force acting on the piston crown, 20mm gugeon pin, and conrod onto the crank

    Over 6 off Audi S3's weight/force acting onto the piston crown, ON-OFF-ON-OFF many times a second

    and there are those who think forged rods are'nt really an insurance policy and worth the risk of not fitting when upping their power beyond a remap.. Really? Really really?
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2010
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  39. Alex C
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    Alex C Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 15, 2010]
    thanks Bill, i always read these "brain storming" threads you guys have but i always get lost when the more technical stuff comes up, cheers
    #38
  40. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Sep 16, 2010]
    OK, injectors not here today which is a bit of a bummer. But there we go, they shall be tomorrow.

    I have phoned CR Turbos and arranged for collection of the exchange unit today, they will collect tomorrow and it will be back with me in a slightly better form by Friday next week... All ready for my week off the following week :).

    For those of you not up on what turbo this will be, this is the equivalent JBS product:

    JBS 05 - Hybrid K04 Turbo - JBS
    #39
  41. badger5
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    [Sep 16, 2010]
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