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An intermitant rattle or tapping on start up from cold.

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by funnyclub, May 15, 2010.

  1. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [May 15, 2010]
    Hey Guys have noticed sometimes when I start the S3 from cold I get like a rattle or tapping for a sec. When warm it doesnt tend to happen. Its nothing major just wondering does anyone else get this. The noise could be injector noise I aint sure.
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  3. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [May 15, 2010]
    charcoal filter iirc its normal
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  4. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 21, 2010]
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  5. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Jun 21, 2010]
    Instantly know what that is......

    Mine sounded just like it, the camshaft tensioner is not working as it should and your chains are rattling on startup, mine was also doing this during gear changes with load/unload going onto the engine. I don't want to frighten you but go to your local Audi Stealer and ask them to diagnose it. They shouldn't charge you, mine didn't. Be prepared for a 1K top end rebuild bill. Mine cost me just shy of 1K back last year.

    G
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  6. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 21, 2010]
    A **** your not serious. Looks like she will be going up for sale as I aint forking out for that.
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  7. S3-Oski
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    S3-Oski Member

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    [Jun 21, 2010]
    Hi mate what damage did that cause to your engine? just out of interest.

    I have had an EML light come on my car the other week, an Audi specialist, diagnosed it, and it is my Camshaft Adjuster which is at fault is this the same as a Camshaft Tensioner?

    Its currently parked up waiting to be fixed, by them next week when they are free, turns out to be a very expensive repair for the part and labour, i had no noise on startup or when underload drove fine,just wondered if its the same part?

    I thought all cars made a slight noise on startup from cold as the engine adjusts as oil pressure get up to spec????only for a few seconds and no where as noisy as in that video?
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  8. S3-Oski
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    S3-Oski Member

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    [Jun 21, 2010]
    Surely your better getting that fixed before selling it? it might not be a top end rebuild job? I would definately get it looked at
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  9. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 21, 2010]
    Ya I am going to get it checked out next week. It only happens on start up when cold for a couple of seconds nothing when driving at all.
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  10. brys3
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    brys3 Member

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    [Jun 21, 2010]
    Yeah I'd like to know how that goes as I have the same. I thought it was jus exhaust rattle. My cat is on it's way but yours sounds exactly like mine. ****!
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  11. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 21, 2010]
    Bummer mate. Well the plan was to get it serviced anyway and get the oil pick up pipe replaced or cleaned.
    But now the guys is going to do a engine flush and then service and do the other bits.
    My head is soo melted right now as I didnt plan on having to fork out big money to have stuff fixed my plan was to get some new 18" wheels and some new suspension so fingers crossed this isnt a big job.
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  12. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    Anyone else have an opinion on this??
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  13. brys3
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    brys3 Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    I've recently had mine serviced and it's only really started since that. I don't get any error codes for cam tensioner so is it definately that
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  14. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    The damage done was fairly minimal but was expensive none the less. The oil pickup pipework/filter (located in sump) was blocked due to AVS and starved the top end of the engine from oil. The camshaft chain tensioner works on oil pressure and as there was little it was not tensioning the chains properly, resulting in slack chains, therefore noisy on startup and sometimes on various cars going from load/unload.

    In bad cases it is v loud. Mine wasn't that bad but I wasn't risking bricking my engine. Took it to Audi and they wanted me to leave the car there and have the work done there and then due to the serious nature of the fault. I decided against and rang the company I purchased the car from about 2 months prior. They agreed to split the bill if I took it to a Specialist. Which is what happened in the end.

    The car had (from memory, still have receipts:

    New chains
    New VVTI unit
    New oil pick up pipework
    New oil
    New camshaft position sensor
    Water pump
    Oil pump (to be on the safe side)
    New Cambelt

    I'm sure there is more but thats all I can remember.

    You shouldn't have the noise in that video on your car, if you do have it get it looked at. It is NOT normal for the 1.8T VAG engine to make that noise unless you have a lack of oil/pressure to the top end of the engine. I'm only saying what I was told at the time my car was like that. I almost wrote to AUDI GMBH to complain about the AVS and the fact that given such a sensitive engine why do such a thing as AVS on it in the first place. Stupidity from AUDI if you ask me and a costly mistake for the owner at an expense of over £1k in some cases.

    G
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  15. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    Forgot to mention, it was a £5 part (oil pickup pipe filter) which eventually caused all the damage, that and the fact AVS was used at least once in it's life. My car is 1 previous owner from new as well (woman), not as if its been neglected.

    We live and learn.

    G
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  16. S3-Oski
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    S3-Oski Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    Thanks Mr G interesting, mine was on the AVS service, but since i have owned it i have oil and filter done every 5-6k, they will be conducting an oil pressure test for me too when they fix it. even though its just the unit that has started to fail,

    Im thinking Camshaft sensor which was on yours is different to the Camshaft Adjuster which has flagged up a fault on mine, This part alone is over £300 just for the part

    I might get a new oil pickup pipe filter, and sump cleaned/checked as well, just to be on the safe side,

    Just out of interest did you have and performance issues with this problem or was it just funny noises? thanks,
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  17. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    the strainer is definately not at fault. its function is to limit the amount and size of the rubbish that can get into the oil pump, to preserve the oil pump.

    due to dodgy servicing (AVS) you end up with oil being burnt on everywhere. as parts of the burnt oil/sludge get dislodged they end up in the sump and the pump tries to suck them up. the strainer does its job and stops them, eventually itll end up blocked.

    before then youll get poor circulation and it does seem that the tensioner is the first thing to show symptoms as it does no pressurise properly, but leave it long enough and eventually the tensioner will need replacing. if circulation comes almost to a stop then youll end up with a damaged turbo and eventually head damage

    AVS is murder though. ive got some fantastic pictures on my phone of partially and almost completely blocked strainers, the worst being an 80k "low miler" that had spent its life on AVS, which also had bits of broken dip stick tube in there too

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  18. brys3
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    brys3 Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    I live on the isle of man so my nearest specialist is Liverpool. Should this fault throw up an error code? Started the s this morning and sounded fine bar exhaust rattle
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  19. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    So I take it this wont be an easy fix for me????
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  20. S3-Oski
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    S3-Oski Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    I would get it looked at asap mate, as you dont know until its been checked, my car was different i had no noise, just an EML light flagged up, so im glad i got it checked straight away as i would not want it to fail completely which could have caused me alot of grief,
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  21. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    Earliest I can get it looked at is Monday my head is wrecked now worrying about what this is going to cost me.
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  22. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    In my opinion it is...let me explain.

    Audi with all the wealth and knowledge they have made a £5 part, badly made and designed responsible for the oil pickup/return to the head of the engine. If this blocks due to AVS which is Audi's own recommended service intervals then what is at fault? Us for using whats recommended or the part/design of the part that is responsible?

    You'd think with such a sophisticated car, the S3, that Audi would have revised certain things on the engine that were "Prone" to going bad quickly. Not wanting to cost themselves money over time due to warranty claims of which I'm sure there have been MANY! Then again perhaps they plainly don't care a sausage.

    Yes the part does it's job, I'm not a mechanic and don't understand engines as well as I'd like to but from what I've seen the item in question is of poor design and not big enough for the job. So....I blame the £5 part for my 1K costly repair bill. You could also blame Audi for their rubbish AVS interval recommendations, both to me are at fault.

    G
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  23. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    the strainer isnt radically different to practically any other strainer out there. i could dig out a photo of the oil pump in my golf, last time i had the sump down (maybe at 205k-210k miles) it was crystal clear in there

    if the engine doesnt burn the oil then the fragments wont block it, but other objects need to be kept out (ie like in that AUM i was telling you about, the broken dipstick tube)

    just bad servicing, owners being tight fisted and audi trying to drive those "new car costs" down ("youre spending £20k-£30k-£40k on one of our cars, but its well cheap to service them, you wont have to bring it back to the dealer for 20,000 miles!")
    #22
  24. finesse
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    finesse Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    So what to do then? I have the same issue, how much would this job cost?
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2010
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  25. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2010]
    sump clean up to start with to restore oil flow, if that doesnt cure it then its new tensioner time unfortunately

    if you do take it to a specialist, trust me, the cambelt does not have to come off
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  26. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    While it was being done I had my cambelt replaced, more for piece of mind than anything else. It had already had one but I thought might as well get it done again and it's all brand new and tight, as it should be. Some cars might have over 100K on it and cambelt was done at say 60K, making it due for renewal anyway.

    I'm sure that the specialist that did my car wouldn't have advised it if he didn't "know" it would be worth it or that it needed it. I know him well, a personal friend so trust what he's saying to be right. Mine had a new VVTI unit also.

    I've added a picture for those who aren't sure how our engines are laid out. It's from an A4 so it's longitudinal but it's the same engine.

    [​IMG]

    Camshafts are connected together via a chain, the cambelt only uses one camshaft to connect with the engines crank.

    G
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  27. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    age old design to have a single cam sprocket and then a chain linking them.

    i have personally changed them myself without touching the cambelt, there are how-to guides on the net that show you how.

    just adds further evidence to show that "specialist" (or garages in general IMO) cant be trusted!
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  28. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    I changed my cam chain tensioner on the weekend. I bought a genuine part from the US for £167 delivered, not £370 from Audi or TPS.

    Do you only hear the rattle on start up, not on warm idle or any other time. If its only on start up get a friend to start the car while you place a screwdriver where the cam chain tensioner is and listen through the screwdriver, you should hear it rattle (old school method for finding noises).

    It is not that hard a job to fix but very time consuming, and thats where the cost comes from, labour and yes it is a very expensive part from AUDI. I didnt have a rattle very much on start up, I had my rattle on warm idle when there is no oil pressure and the cam chain tensioner would lose its tension slightly so the chain would become slack and rattle quite loud ish. Since changed last weekend the car is very quite on start up and warm idle which is great.


    There is no need to change anything else unless you want peace of mind like Mr G has ( he has given you very good advice in this thread). I bought a cam chain tensioner, rocker cover gasket and tensioner gasket which all come to around £190. If you decided to do it yourself let me know because I got quite a few very useful guides and I would be able to give you any advise you need as I just done mine.

    Nathan
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
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  29. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]

    Tnx mate do you have a link to where you got the part incase I have to get one?
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  30. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    This is the part I bought

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...0512822148&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT

    There is 2 types of cam chain tensioner, a electronic and non electronic. I think the non facelifts have the non electronic which is quite a bit cheaper. Have a look at yours tensioner to see if you have a sensor at the end of it. The tensioner is located on the right hand side of the engine rocker cover.

    and these are the guides I used

    http://www.passatworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215732

    http://www.ca-va.org/tech/camtensioner/index.html

    http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=240036

    Nathan
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
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  31. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]

    Tnx very much for that. I wouldnt do the work myself but getting the parts cheaper will certainly help. My s3 is a 2001 you dont happen to know which tensioner I need a sensor type or non sensor?
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  32. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    I should be a sensor type as your should have a facelift S3.

    Nathan
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  33. funnyclub
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    funnyclub Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    I just checked mine and it had a cable plugged into it I trust this is the sensor type I have.
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  34. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    Come on Matt, I mean how many of us would actually attempt this, be realistic. Regardless of who is doing the work, the whole Idea is to be safe than sorry, is that not correct? So Specialists or Audi Dealers are only looking after our best interest, albeit lining their pockets. I'm sure that they do not want us returning with the car with further problems of items that were NOT changed during the initial rebuild job. If I was working for a specialist I know what advice i'd give to customers, given that we ALL know how cars are both temperamental and problematic at the best of times. Unless it's spanking new and even then problems arise.

    As for ages old design....I'm not doubting that, however it's still a good strong engine when it works as it should. I'm not a mechanic or engineer so have no idea about pro's/con's of each engine other than whats obvious, it seems that you do though....so share your thoughts, we'd all welcome them i'm sure! :)

    Further evidence of what? That ALL specialists or garages can't be trusted? I think that's too much of a blinkered approach to places that ARE legitimately trading and are doing a very good job, of which three immediately spring to mind.

    Thanks! It's good that you've tried this yourself, I'd not even know where to start to be honest. Plus I need the car daily to get to work. Useful post for the rest of the forum :)
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  35. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    Ye it is. You will need the one I gave in the link.

    Nathan
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  36. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    age old design, ie tried and tested and so we know it lasts.

    as for dealer/specialist looking out for your interests, i think thats a bit rose tinted. they are a business, they are there to make money. it is not necessary to remove the cambelt etc to replace a chain tensioner, obviously that takes time, i doubt they would even touch it tbh. the more cars they can turn around in a day, they more its worth to them regardless of how many hours labour they charge.

    for a simpler example that everyone can relate to... the stat on the front of a 20vt. im not sure on the time quoted for that particular job, but elsawin states the alternator has to be removed to access the stat, when everyone knows that thats not true.

    i just dont trust specialsts or garages in general, look at how often people are unhappy with the quality of work etc. if the work was carried out properly, perhaps the cars wouldnt be so tempermental?

    there are very few places out there run by proper enthusiasts, thats where the best work comes from because they have an actual passion for the work theyre doing, unlike the YTS oik blindly following the manual down your local dealer. youre no better him working on it than yourself
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  37. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    We all have our own opinions. Rose tinted? You must be speaking with some dodgy specialists or backstreet garages as the specialists i've spoken to are nothing but helpful and aren't there to "steal" money from my by getting me to change things that don't need to be changed.

    I would hope even if I did pay the £80/100+vat charges Dealerships make these days, that a YTS lad reading a manual is NOT working on my car. I think maybe you have that much of a distrust in them you only see it your way.

    G
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  38. DenCar
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    DenCar Member

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    [Jun 23, 2010]
    #37
  39. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Jun 24, 2010]
    #38
  40. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 24, 2010]
    its a two fold thing like ive already said in the thread. firstly oil pressure which i then think leads to the tensioner being killed

    ive got two or three dead tensioners at home. i know they have a one way valve in them, when i get a chance ill pull them apart to see whether the one way valve still functions. if it doesnt, thatll explain the tensioner loosing pressure whilst the engine is off
    #39
  41. audison
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    audison New Member

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    [Jun 24, 2010]
    great thread and advice chaps...

    I've got a very similar noise on startup, albeit nowhere near as loud, and taking the advice i figured i'd clean out the sump and pickup filter, but also to replace the oil pump whilst i'm at it for some peace and mind. However, after reading the engine builder mag article i'm thinking, asides from a nice piece of maintenance, this is going to do JS to the noise even if i decide to swap out the camshaft tensioner as well! Is this going to be a case of spending time and ££s on chasing a non-existent problem???
    #40

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