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AH Fab / Ebay / Forge S3/A3 FMIC installs (image heavy)

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by <tuffty/>, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 3, 2009]
    I still stand by the original design and the reason for doing it...

    'IF' I find the 60mm pipes are a workable option without compromising what I originally set out to do, then I will consider getting the cooler modified. The fitment criteria for the cooler still stands, it must retain the fogs and require little if any modification to the bumper to retain the OEM look.

    The AH cooler (and Forge for that matter) is still one of the best options for getting a FMIC on an S3 with little effort and retaining fogs etc....

    <tuffty/>
    #81
  2. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    [Sep 5, 2009]
    If you do fit yours with the 60mm alloy pipes imo the AH one will be better than the Forge.I still think it would be even better if it was a little shorter as there isnt alot of airflow if any going through the top part of your core.

    [​IMG]
    #82
  3. badger5
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    [Sep 5, 2009]
    how woulod reducing the surface area of the core improve its heat exchange?
    #83
  4. MAD_Adamski
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    MAD_Adamski Member

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    [Sep 5, 2009]
    the pipes angled like that would not work would foul the fogs! Also as i did say AGES ago why limit the cooler by making it smaller it will NOT decrease the price as its the cost of the core.... i can see what your saying about the bottom parts BUT its no biggy really tbh will flow fine as it is for what most people want..

    Ad
    #84
  5. badger5
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    [Sep 5, 2009]
    good picture, and backed up with temperature measurements? top section will not have as much aiflow to heat exchnage but will still conduct heat into the very ductile alumimium core assembly..

    On Forge intercoolers, and my own of several years there is an internal deflector plate on the inlet of the core which guides air to the top as well as the lower half.. to help distribute the airflow for as uniform a heat exchange as possible..

    I dont know if I understood your post right, but were you suggesting a smaller (not so tall core?)? I would think that to not be an improvement over the one pictured personally.
    #85
  6. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    [Sep 5, 2009]
    It will conduct heat from the top but no where near as fast as the turbo is putting it in,so will still be hot.
    Why would you want to deflect hot air to the top of this core if it is relying on conduction/convection to cool?
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
    #86
  7. badger5
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    [Sep 5, 2009]
    I think the debate here, is one of semantics of a perfect core vs a practical installed upgrade behind the S3's front end. compromise

    Better than the twin smic by a mile in logged temperatures before and after, which is the important real world aspect.

    talking inytercoolers:
    add sides to the fmic to trap air, and the upper part of the core will receive some air.
    the heat exchange efficiency is one of the 'difference' in temp, and with the higher top temp, but lower airflow, there will likely be an efficiency balance of sorts as there is a greater temp delta up top, but less airflow...

    It will conduct heat into the core generally, and the portion of the core receiving more airflow will exchange it faster. without that top part of the core, the heat exchange is just reliant on the airflow section (green). Are you suggestion the core if just the size of the green bit will work equally as well as the whole thing?
    Maybe the manufacturers should only have made the water radiators as big as the airflow they see also.? {joke btw}

    i dont subscribe to making the core smaller, helping. agreed the portion with more airflow can receive more air and heat exchange... remembering heat exchange effeciency is a function of the temperature difference. the core are pictured will heat exchange more in the airflow, I don there's any question on that, but making the rest of the core smaller does'nt serve a purpose either..

    here's a great thermal image of a non-internally deflected core in action.
    [​IMG]


    too small a core and the airflow thru the core can be so fast it does'nt have much time to heat exchange. I had this on an early core on my ibiza. bigger core worked better for me, even with some of behind the bumper. Same core now supports 2.4bar boost, 9000rpm engine, and GT35 strapped on. max ait's 45'C without watermeth running.

    Sides to the core to stop air escaping will help a lot in guiding the airflow thru the core.


    comparison of my what was too small for me vs current core
    [​IMG]


    regards
    bill
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
    #87
  8. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Sep 5, 2009]
    looks like there is 3 s3_kev fmic out there now then lol, how did you find the results of the cooler
    #88
  9. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Sep 5, 2009]
    from doing logs on my intake temps with outside temp being 20'c it went from 40'c driveing casually then power down it went down and down to 26'c which i thought was good on a ko4 pushing 25psi and as you can see my fmic on the build at the start of this thread is large and most is behind the bumper but still works
    #89
  10. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    I am suggesting a core without the red area and better designed end tanks,inlet-outlet(diffuser,Nozzle)will work better than the whole thing as it is now with equally if not lower AIT's and less pressure drop.



    Keep in mind, that the merit of a core is it’s efficiency versus its internal drag characteristics(pressure drop).

    Here's a couple of cfd images showing the difference between straight and angled inlets.Looking at the pic where i angled the inlet/outlet both remained in the same place so 'should' still work with keeping the fogs on an s3.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Very true but the AH core without the red area is still plenty big enough for the job an an s3.
    With a decent diffuser the airflow will slow down more than enough as it flows through the core.

    How much further away is your Ibiza with 9000rpm,GT35 and 2.4 bar compared to an s3 with 6000rpm(not sure on the exact rpm),tiny k04 and around 1.5 bar.You simply cant compare the two.

    What power/torque did you get with the small core?
    #90
  11. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    The proalloy one has an angled inlet, but only angled down on the drivers side. The inlet turns 90degrees backwards and sits rigth adjacent to the PAS cooling pipe right under the towing hook thread. Avoids the fog by miles that way.
    #91
  12. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    Its the inlet that really needs the angle,you are better off trying to throw the air across the whole of the core rather than just allowing it to blast into one spot.
    Do you have any pics?
    #92
  13. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    [Sep 6, 2009]

    It feels like there's is a bit more lag? but that due to pressure drop from the size of the cooler

    Feels better when on the motorway

    Good price also £110 inc P&P for the cooler and £220 ish for the pipes and hoses

    I going to see if i can get some air temp measurements of inlet and outlet
    #93
  14. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    i didnt really notice to much lag when fitting mine just a huge improvement, what state of tune is your car???
    #94
  15. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    N75j valve and thats about it, running more than standard boost, about 16psi.
    #95
  16. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    Taken with phone cam

    [​IMG]
    #96
  17. badger5
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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    Very different era. small fmic and large one back then was IHI VF34, circa 320bhp
    same large core used to this day and supports the GT35 fine

    something works right me thinks ;)

    Practical fitment into the cars is a higher priority for some than others.
    great theory, now make it actually fit an S3 and show the gains.

    you onto a design here..
    now you can prove it by getting it fab'd

    have fun
    #97
  18. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Sep 17, 2009]
    Just for the a3 guys out there, i asked awesome gti and they said the golf mk4 fmic fits the a3 one, with minor modding.

    plus the forge ones being only £550, or can get a turbo revs one for £200
    #98
  19. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Sep 18, 2009]
    You'd be mad not to just do what Tuffty has done! The core is quality and can be made to your own measurements for £250, then get the hoses and clips off ebay.

    The Turbo Revs one seems a good option for the A3 though and I'm sure someone on here had one!
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
    #99
  20. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Sep 18, 2009]
    Yer i know, but5 its the crash bar to, i would get a custom when one made if i could ask someone to help or cut out the crash bar, But yer tufty i think saved like £300, so the forge kit for me being £550 i would only save around £100
  21. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 18, 2009]
    buy an angle grinder for £15 off screwfix...it isnt the hardest job on the planet :)
  22. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    [Sep 18, 2009]
    There is another option when it comes to intercoolers

    Nissan Skyline R33 GT-R intercooler

    Its almost the same size at the ebay cooler but the end tanks are better i would say, it uses the same size hoses and you can still keep the spots
  23. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Sep 18, 2009]
    LOL yer i doubt it is hard but isnt the crash bar important!, but i dont know what bends i need etc, guess i could find out, where would if find out from, ive tried looking on forge website, but nothing there
  24. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    dude, a few people on this forum have made this mistake before!

    Did you get the £200 turbo revs kit? if so, then the pipes actually fit pretty well!

    Those are the pipes that come in the kit, and once you know the new route they take, it's pretty easy to get them all to fit.
  25. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    Yeah, it was the same kit, but the pipes looked nothing like yours! My god I wish they did! lol. Still, defo not that set of pipes. I guess that they sent the wrong kit by whoopsie.

    I considered sending it back, but being an impulsive t*at I didn't bother. Wanted it there and then so made it fit. I see they actually sell the pipe kit separately too, so will just get another one.

    Bum nuggets. Wish I'd sent it back now! :keule:Live 'n learn!
  26. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    my mate has that CAI pipe on his Leon....looks really good quality for an ebay item ;)
  27. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    which CAI pipe tim? the CAI on this one is a carbonio. rediculously over priced carbon jobby that's no better than my £40 ebay job :D
  28. audi18tdan
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    audi18tdan Member

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    Cheers Welly,
    you must deffo have got the wrong kit and yes you should have sent it back but i guess you're kinda the same as me, just want it done rather than waiting around.

    I don't see how you managed to use the original pancake pipe as with mine the throttle side is on the left and therefore you would have to go out of turbo through FMIC and up into engine bay and route the pipe back on itself into the intake.

    We remove the turbo intake manufold and the pancake pipe and from there it's a really simple and neat routing process.

  29. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    Prawn, the one my neighbour bought off the bay was exactly the same as the one pictured...not sure on the name but it is definately a carbon one of the same diameter....sure he paid less than £100 for it :)
  30. quattro rob
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    quattro rob Member

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    have you please got a link to this item as am wanting to buy 1 for my a3 sport thanks
  31. Plunky
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    Plunky Member

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    Nick!! dont forget i still need your expert help in fitting this kit to mine! :D
  32. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    I guess I could be persuaded Liam! do you have all the bits ready now? All you need aside from the kit is a brass 8mm nipple for the N75 take off.

    it's also MUCH easier if you have a cold side relocation kit, but not 100% essential.....

    All the ones I've fitted so far have used cold side kits, as it just goes in nicer, and it's a worthwhile mod anyway.
  33. audi18tdan
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    audi18tdan Member

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
  34. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    Ive got a spare 200£ going around :) Not sure if i could trust my self in doing it though, it doesnt sound TOO hard. How did you make the brackets ?
  35. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    As Terry Tibbs would say: Fack knows. You want to see it... I'm using about a million extra feet of pipework (well, about 6). Runs from the pancake outlet, under the rad, round the horns and into the FMIC. Then modified what I got sent to fit the inlet.

    Was.... interesting shall we say? lol
  36. MAD_Adamski
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    MAD_Adamski Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    dont mean to be rude here but i think that looks horrible i'd sooner spend another £100-200 and have it fitting far nicer and prob work alot better too just my 2pence :whistle2:
  37. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Well its been a long time coming...
    Its hopefully intercooler fitting day.
    Ive modded the crash rail. Made the fitting brackets.
    I also decided to trim the plastic covers that over hang the radiator to gain more clearance for the pipe work.
    Photos of this will be uploaded later as ive been in a bit of a rush to get to this point by today,
    The issue of sticking with 62mm pipe work will be hard faught today ! I dont want to downsize unless i realy have to,
    I dont want to chop anything or loose anything that will spoil the car. Im keeping the fogs and not cutting the bumper.
    To start with i will leave the cooler as it came which is the silver of the alloy its made from. If i decide its too OTT i may at a later date LIGHTLY spray it either dark grey or black.
    Fingers crossed today goes well.
  38. Plunky
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    Plunky Member

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    havnt got the brass nipple but can get one without a problem, would you mind helping me out then? pm me when you've got a spare day mate :D
    cheers
  39. badger5
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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    LOL - made me smile...

    good luck with your fitting
  40. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Nov 3, 2009]
    Cant wait for this.
    What cooler you ended up using paul? Hope you manage to get 62mm all round.

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