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AH Fab / Ebay / Forge S3/A3 FMIC installs (image heavy)

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by <tuffty/>, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 10, 2009]
    >>>>>>>>>>UPDATE!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<

    Having gained a little more experience and exposure to various cars running all sorts of different intercoolers I am now of the conclusion that the AH Fabs V1 I helped develop with its 51mm inlets is not something I can recommend using anymore... the core itself is ok, Bill is using the core on his Lupo thats running best part of 370hp but with 63mm bends welded on instead of the supplied 51mm outlets... the 51mm outlets were a compromise to get the cooler to fit nicely behind the bumper retaining the fogs but I have since developed the AH Fabs V2 which is not much more expensive and a far superior intercooler and of course there are the 'wellycooler' variants one of which can be supplied with 63mm outlets rather than the traditional 76mm ones...

    For this reason I have moved this first post around moving the AH Fabs V2 to the top as this is the one to go for out of the two....


    After a lot of changes and further upgrades to my engine I discovered that on a bigger turbo setup the original AH Fabs V1 FMIC is a little out of its depth...

    The plots below show the pressure drop and the initial spike as the turbo comes on boost and the airflow backs up while it finds a way through...
    [​IMG]

    The orange line in the boost graph is pressure measured at the turbo and the rest are measured at the manifold... as you can see there is a huge spike thats not emulated at the manifold... the rest is the pressure difference between turbo and inlet manifold which equates to around 6 or 7 psi... this is quite a bit

    Bill and I made some changes to the FMIC to try and sort the problem and increase flow potential by cutting off the 51mm ends and welding on 60mm 90 degree bends... the bends were used rather than just 60mm stubs as a 60mm silicon joiner would not fit in the gap in the bumper...
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Sadly while this improved things a little it was clear it wasn't up to what a GT30 will throw at it especially as I upgraded the turbo to a full size GT30 cartridge... so with all that in mind this prompted me to make a return trip to AH and talk to Alex about designing something a bit bigger but that would still fit with fogs intact and not stick out everywhere.

    Alex sent me a core they use for the 500+ bhp Ford Cossie's so thats a good start...
    [​IMG]

    ..as you can see its a little bigger

    Took a bit of faffing to work out what I could get away with etc...
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Had to cut off a couple of rows so it would fit ok but managed to get 63mm pipes in which is plenty big enough.

    Took the results and the core back to Lars who works for Alex... the guy really knows his stuff and is a brilliant fabricator... especially seeing as he managed to understand everything I wanted to do... result lol...

    A week later I went over to AH Fabs workshop to fit the new FMIC.... was impressed to say the least... the crash bar needed a little extra trimming as the new FMIC is wider as well as taller... same depth as before though..
    [​IMG]

    I had already changed the pipework on mine for better flow... I removed the original pipes a while back when we welded on the 60mm bends to the original... I now have alloy pipes joining the first silicon top hose to the FMIC (seen below with the original FMIC)
    [​IMG]

    For anyone else I have sinced fitted the same FMIC to another S3 using a couple of 63mm alloy 90 deg bends and a couple of silicon 63mm 90 deg bends using the OEM MAP sensor tube so there is no need to go to the extent of fabricating the stuff I have...

    Here it is fitted...
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    We have since run the car on the dyno and the spike has gone with there now only being a couple of psi drop which is to be expected.... I don't have a graph handy but when I get the car on the dyno again I'll try and sort something out...

    This updated V2 AH Fabs FMIC is available now... give AH a call and ask for Lars for current pricing...( AH Fabrications - Contact Us)... pipes to join it all together are now simpler (2 x 63mm 90 deg alloy bends and 2 x 63mm silicon 90 deg elbows plus clips)


    For reference I have still included details of the original AH Fabs V1 below but would recommend the V2 over this all day long...
    <tuffty/>
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
    #1
    vivalacoulter, millsy75 and morgan306 like this.
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  3. h100vw
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    h100vw Member

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    Other than maybe taking the excess threads off the clamps, that's a really excellent looking job.

    What are the dimensions of the intercooler?

    Gavin :thumbsup:
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2009
    #2
  4. A3Tom
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    A3Tom Smell my finger.

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    Very nice, really tidy and well thought out, excellent.

    The cooler looks VERY nicely made, real look of quality about it.

    T
    #3
  5. marcyp
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    marcyp Only me

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    good reading there think this should be made a sticky as itll save alot of time and help alot of people in the long run
    looks sexuail thow
    good job :o.k:
    #4
  6. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    Paul your a AS.NET legend.
    #5
  7. b16 will
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    b16 will Member

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    That looks a well thaught out kit, and you have made a nice job of fitting it. When can i get mine then??
    #6
  8. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    The plan is to make this sticky after Minty has done his Forge "howto" so we have the 2 main contenders side by side for comparison
    #7
  9. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    I think the differences in approach between the Forge kit and the AH cooler should be mentioned at this point.

    The Forge kit is superbly made and the whole kit is designed to be a bolt on upgrade not requiring any form of extensive modification. A modified crash bar is supplied as is all hoses, pipes, clips and comprehensive instructions on how to fit the kit. In contrast the AH Fabrications while just as superbly made, is a cooler only. It will require you to source your own pipes, hoses and clamps as well as modify your own crash bar. Proper fitment will be reliant on you cutting the crash bar correctly (I don't have the measurements for this as I originally cut it to fit the ebay one) and getting the hoses trimmed correctly (as I had to trim the 51mm 45 degree silicone elbows).

    In short, if you are after a bolt on no fuss solution then the Forge solution is probably for you. If you are confident in your abilities to modify parts where needed and want to save a couple of quid, then the AH Fabrications cooler will serve you well.

    I could take measurements of my crash bar as Alex will be making his coolers to the spec derived from mine but I would not like to say my measurements are gospel and if I was doing it again, I would offer up the AH cooler with its brackets and measure again.

    Fitting the AH cooler was a very rewarding experience for me, one that I am happy to share with you all and that I hope you will find useful.

    <tuffty/>
    #8
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  10. Dansmith
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    Dansmith Member

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    An experience that you would like to do again for free??? :thumbsup:
    #9
  11. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    Happy enough to assist anyone within reason my friend :)

    <tuffty/>
    #10
  12. WildBruce
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    WildBruce Third Gear

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    Been a long time coming, but well worth the wait, it all looks pretty sweet, and a very detailed instruction set.

    :applaus:
    #11
  13. Forge
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    Forge Member

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    looks good , well done
    #12
  14. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    here's an alternative to keeping the fogs, its an ebay cooler but any cooler will do thats the same size so you could get ah to make you one up still but the pipe work runs differently to tufftys so you have nice shiney pipes instead of fogs, anyway what you need;
    -600x300x76mm intercooler
    -2x 90 degree polished pipes 76mm
    -2x 90 degree silicone hose 76mm (easier then a hard pipe as they need choping a bit)
    -2x 90 degree silicone reducer hose with 76mm to 63mm
    -2x alloy joiner 63mm
    -2x alloy joiner 76mm
    -2x 76mm silicone hose 120mm length
    -10x jubilee clips 70-90mm the mikalor style clips dont fit where the cooler is behind the bumper so no point getting them, plus in my opinion there no better as long as you get decent jubilees and make sure there tight
    -re-use the old intercooler jubilee clips for the 63mm joins

    i ordered all my pipe work from http://www.viper-performance.co.uk/index.php they are good quality and i no they work on this set up as i and gazzaone have them (i fitted his cooler last weekend)

    ok now where to start,

    -1st remove the bumper,
    -then both the side mount intercoolers, including the old hoses at the bottom of the coolers to the hard pipe, leave the hard pipe fitted at the bottom as its there for strength as well as an intercooler pipe even non turbo golfs have them fitted,
    -once all the old stuff is off you need to remove the crash bar,
    -then line the new intercooler up, you need a pice of angle iron for the top support with some little pieces coming off that for the cooler to mount onto, the angle iron needs to be fitted to the plastic front pannel using some 10mm headed self tapping screws the bar should fit so its at the top of the flat part of the front pannel like this
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    once you have the top bar all fitted you need to make up some lower supports here you will need some flat iron metal then you need to bend it so it has a 90 degree bend in the middle and again use a self tapping 10mm screw to fix it to the bottom part of the front pannel like this

    [​IMG]

    once both the brackets top and bottom are made and fitted you can guide the intercooler into place i left enough room for 3 washers at the top and 3 washers at the bottom for where the 13mm bolts go into the cooler from the support brakets as this then gives you room to fine tune the highet of the cooler for correct bumper fit after,
    ok so now the cooler shold be fitted and look like this
    [​IMG]

    no thats not me in the pic lol,

    -so once the cooler is on its just a case of fitting the pipe work you need to put the 63mm alloy joiners into the standard pipes at the top where the old coolers went into there a tight fit you will also want to wipe off any oil from these areas as the pipes may blow off also give the joiners a little rough up with some sand paper it helps the silicone pipes grip on,
    -ok now you can fit the 90 degree 76 to 63mm pipe this goes on to the alloy joiner you have just fitted so the 63mm end goes to the joiner and the 76mm end is left dangling down, you will need to cut the pipe down in places to get a nice fit but its hard to explain where but your soon see when fitting

    heres a pic of where the new hose needs to go to in this pic the hose you have just fitted is the one thats missing
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    -ok now your ready to fit the 76mm alloy joiner into the end of te reducer pipe you have just fitted
    -next step is to fit the 90 degree 76mm silicone bend this pipe joines to the 76mm alloy joiner you have just fitted and the end of the pipe work should then face you,
    -now your ready to fit the hard pipes the 76mm alloy 90 degree pipes, they need to go into the end of te pipes you have just fitted and face the intercooler at the other end
    -you should be left with a gap of around 100mm between the hard pipe and the intercooler this is where the 120mm hose goes the hose needs to join the intercooler and the hard pipe with the jubilee so its at the swge line of the pipe/intercooler so as to use the full length of the hose and not use it as just a joiner,

    that should then leave you with all the intercooler joined up as in my pics above.

    -you then need to relocate the horn this should fit to where to old intercooler mount point was on the nearside of the car, (look at tufftys image above for where to mount it)

    -ok so now your ready to modify the front bumper you need to pop out the side grils where the fog lights are
    -then remove the fog lights you can either cut the fog light brackets off or leave them if you leave them then you need to be carefull when re-fitting the bumper as you will scratch the polished pipes whilst putting the bumper on,
    -you should then just have the grill surround left in the bumper you need to trim the ends down nearest the center grill as the intercooler wont fit with part of it there,

    heres where you need to trim, dont take to much out though
    [​IMG]

    -next you need to trim the old fog light grills, you need to cut all of the hatched parts out so you end up with a thin part of plastic at the top part the side part nearest to the center grill area and the bottom part,
    -when you get to the fog light hole area you need to trim along from where you have removed the hatched part from to the outside edge of the fog hole so as to make the fog light hole a big oval into the empty grill
    -the grill sholud then fit back into the bumper make sure you dont cut the retaining parts ofthis grill cover off or it wont stay in place,

    - now the bumper should fit over the intercooler and back onto the car, its always good to chop out a lttle at a time and to keep checking fitment as its easier to remove something then it is to re mould it back on.

    -before fitting the bumper start the car and make sure all the pipes are ok and fitting correctly
    -now you need to cut down the crash bar a hacksaw blade should do it i chopped out more then i needed to on mine so measure it up before just chopping at it

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    -ok now re-fit the crash bar.
    -next step is to re-fit the bumper this will be a tight fit back on and might take a while to realign but it should fit back into all the original fixings

    -now start the car again make sure everythings ok and go for a little test drive, dont boost it for a while just drive it let the hoses settle to the joiners for a few miles then all should be good with no hoses poping off,

    this is how the cooler should look once all back together

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    #13
  15. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 11, 2009]
    If we can leave this bit for the forge write up, we will have a full set. Please leave any comments on the thread in the main section. If you found any of this useful, please thank the original posters directly.Cheers
    #14
  16. clcollins
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    clcollins Member

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    [Jul 12, 2009]
    Cracking write up tufftybloke, thanks for all the info and pictures, the IC looks very well made :salute:
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
    #15
  17. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Jul 12, 2009]
    I will have a forge write up in a weeks time.
    #16
  18. adibose
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    adibose RBN Tuning

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    [Jul 12, 2009]
    thanks for the presentation
    #17
  19. S90GAV
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    S90GAV Member

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    [Jul 13, 2009]
    just had a e-mail from AH Fab and including VAT and delivery will be £304.75
    #18
  20. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Jul 13, 2009]
    Thought they where going tobe £250 with i think a £15 delivery charge!!!
    #19
  21. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 13, 2009]
    + VAT @ 15%

    <tuffty/>
    #20
  22. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    [Jul 14, 2009]
    Intake temps look impressive, do you notice any more / less lag compared to the SMICs?

    I might just drop Alex an email for one of these...
    #21
  23. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 14, 2009]
    The car feels more responsive than before, I have not noticed any lag issues tbh...

    <tuffty/>
    #22
  24. MAD_Adamski
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    MAD_Adamski Member

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    [Jul 14, 2009]
    Exactly how mine was, felt more throttle responsive and my car actually lagged less!:icon_thumright:
    #23
  25. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Jul 14, 2009]
    if you look how much lag your saving by removing the 2 smic and the cross over pipe then theres no reason why a large fmic should imploment any more lag as theres probably less serface area to fill then before anyway, i have no more lag then before maybe less still and i havea huge fmic and 76mm pipework
    #24
  26. Dennis Moeller
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    Dennis Moeller Member

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    [Jul 15, 2009]
    @Tufty and @S3Kev

    Did you you guys reuse the OE MAP sensor pipe and just connect the new (larger) hoses to that? I'm getting the Forge steel pipe with a cutout flange for a sensor and fit it somewhere behing the headlight in order to have no restrictions in flow and a general cooler area for the MAP sensor. It's not that expensive imo...so I'll give it a try!

    I now have a temp solution where the sensor is fitted too close to the TB and it's not really optimal since it gets very hot in that area...Coolant hoses radiate so much heat and it should be way cooler down by the headlight...I've cut holes in the front plastic thing to prevent things from happen...But does it really mean anything? Because I've heard or read somewhere that MAP sesor has a temperature sensor build in it too but I'm not certain. The Manifold Absolute Pressure will be the same no matter where it's placed, I'm sure, but what about the intake air sensor...

    Very good DIY's you've put together lads...
    #25
  27. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 15, 2009]
    Kept the OEM tube on mine Dennis, couldn't see the point in changing it. If you were doing an A3 then yeah, you kinda have to do it as the MAP sensor is in the SMIC.

    <tuffty/>
    #26
  28. Dennis Moeller
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    Dennis Moeller Member

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    [Jul 17, 2009]
    I see...do you know if the sensor serves as temperature seonsor too?

    Cheers
    #27
  29. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 17, 2009]
    The air temp sensor in on the inlet mani near the throttle body

    <tuffty/>
    #28
  30. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Jul 17, 2009]
    i left mine with the oem map sensor tube was tinking of replacing it with the forge item to reduce restrictions but the forge item is just a straight tube where as you need a 40 degree bend in the pipe work to get around the battery tray and other bits if i remember correct
    #29
  31. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Jul 21, 2009]
    This is the Forge intercooler setup and installation.

    [​IMG]

    Bumper removal
    [​IMG]

    Crash bar, horn bracket and air ducts removed
    [​IMG]

    Horn relocation
    [​IMG]

    Comparrison
    [​IMG]

    Crash bar to intercooler
    [​IMG]

    Crash bar and intercooler fitted
    [​IMG]

    Pipework fitted
    [​IMG]

    Now I have to say, removal of the standard uneeded parts and fitting of the forge items is very easy. Couple of hours and no ramp and we were at this point. Instructions were usefull.

    Unfortunately this is where weve hit a wall. The bumper DOES NOT go on easily.

    The bumper presses against the front of the intercooler. We have helped this situation by cable tieing the intercooler bottom towards the car.

    The foglight bracket sits on top of the lower boost hoses. We had to position the clips so they didnt get in the way and in the end had to trim of one of the foglight brackets to get it to sit better.

    The foglight housing itself sits on the metal boost piping pushing it upwards, so it doesnt sit straight with the foglight hole.

    Im currently unable to line up the lower part of the bumper to its screw holes. There is also a panel gap between the wing and the bumper.

    Ive given up today as I needed food and a beer or two but will fiddle about with the piping tomorrow. The panel gap may well be due to the foglight fouling pipework.

    We did actually phone Forge to get their oppinion. Unfortunately they dont seem to have any knowlegde of how their products are fitted and the person on the phone said my car may have been involved in an accident lol. My car is probably one of the lowest mile, cleanest examples in the country, we assured him the car was perfectly straight.

    Anyway will update this thread tomorrow.
    #30
  32. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 21, 2009]
    and this is why I paid someone to do mine ;)
    Good Luck
    #31
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  33. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Jul 22, 2009]
    Well finally got it fitted. Had to make adjustments to each hose and metal pipe. Tweaking the clip positions, hose angles and pipe lengths and also using cable ties to hold the pipework in the right position.

    Foglights sit fine, panel gap is gone but I did need to modify the underside of the car so that I could secure the lower half of the bumper. With the intercooler in place the bumper simply cant sit in its normal position. Had to redrill holes inline with the screw holes in the bumper.

    Will get a pic of the car complete tomorrow.
    #32
  34. Dennis Moeller
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    Dennis Moeller Member

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    [Jul 22, 2009]
    Good you got it sorted. I'm giving mine a go again this weekend. I really NEED to get the foggies fitted even tho I'm using 2.5" pipes...I'm thinking of sourcing some smaller lense fog's from maybe Hella and then fit them with brackets, glue and a plastic welder :-/
    #33
  35. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 22, 2009]

    funny enough, I have the same problem... not got around to redrilling the holes just yet though... they don't mention this in the Forge manual though do they ;P

    <tuffty/>
    #34
  36. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Jul 22, 2009]
    The pipes go inbetween the fogs and bumper. SImply isnt enough room for large pipes and I still had to pull the pipes away from the fogs so they sat correcty.

    Sure dont. Very much a bodge job. If I knew exactly where to position everything it would of been done in about 2 1/2 hours though. Dont see why Forge dont admit its not totally straight forward and some adjusting and tweaking might be required.

    There just isnt enough room for an intercooler between the the radiators and the bumper.
    #35
  37. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 22, 2009]
    As previously mentioned.... this is the reason for 51mm pipes, anything else and its goodbye fogs and much trimmage of the bumper.

    As for the bottom fixings, its a small price to pay for such a worthwhile mod all things considered but it would be nice if they mentioned it in the manual non the less... ah well, considering the things I used to do to Mk2 Escorts to get 2.1ltr pinto engines and gearboxes to fit, redrilling holes is simples :)

    How does the car feel now its all fitted?

    <tuffty/>
    #36
  38. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Jul 22, 2009]
    Feels fine yeh. Not really tested much, if weathers good might go for a run to the west coast but if Im smart I should really test it properly locally lol.
    #37
  39. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Jul 23, 2009]
    Pic of it all fitted.

    [​IMG]
    #38
  40. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 23, 2009]
    Thanks for this guys, appreciated, it will help the community to know the popular options.
    Can we reserve the main forum or PMs for questions unless they are specific to the install or car
    #39
  41. Andrew@A.L.D
    Online

    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Jul 23, 2009]
    #40

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