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Advantages/disadvantages of 225 & 210 engines?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by PorkyWill, May 2, 2007.

  1. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    Hi guys, I'm fairly new to this forum but do browse from time to time...

    I'm looking to upgrade from my 1996 Golf VR6 to an S3 and am searching the internet high and low for the right car and the right price lol!!

    I have read up on the FAQs etc and think I have a reasonable grasp of what to look for when buying but one question still remains, please excuse me if this has been raised before!

    There seems to be a bit of money to be saved by going for a facelifted pre 2002 model and, as long as it is facelifted, the only difference I can gather is that the engine is different, 210bhp before and 225 after 2002. What is the difference beween these two engines and are there any pitfalls or reasons to avoid this engine?

    I have driven a 225 and, upon purchase, will immediately have it remapped to get the most out of the engine. Now it seems that with both engines, 265bhp/280lb/ft seem acheivable. Is the difference in initial power simply due to the mapping?

    I know that, although it is called a 1.8, 20v turbo, the 150bhp engine used in the golfs is a vastly different engine to the higher spec'd engines, is this the same with the 210/225?

    Anyone who can shed any light on this? I would be very grateful!!

    Oh and if anyone knows of a Ming Blue/Black S3, as fewer miles as possible with either blue alcantara or cream leather recaros, Bose, facelift, remapped(maybe) in the Surrey area then please let me know!!!

    Thanks in advance,

    Will
    07887 567 686
    burkewill@hotmail.com
    #1
  2. fingermouse
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    fingermouse thats me

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    well the 210 is cheaper to insure but will remap to the same power
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  3. Blunteh
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    Blunteh Member

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    it might push you higher (well, even out) when you remap though as it's a potential 40 BHP gain on 225 BHP vs 55 BHP gain on 210 BHP and most insurers rate the remap on it's percentage power increase.
    #3
  4. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    Insurance doesn't really worry me, it's one of those annoyances accociated with liking nice cars and knowing how to drive, you seem to get penalised!!!

    So, despite insurance woes, what actual difference is there between the 210 and 225 engine?

    I don't want to potentially buy a 210 engine and end up regretting it when I find that the bottom end cannot take power upgrades or some such nightmare lol!!

    Cheers guys!!
    #4
  5. mordz
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    mordz Audi S3 (2000)

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    I did read somewhere that the only difference on the two engines was the ECU program, oh and that the 225 version has variable valves?

    though im probably wrong.
    #5
  6. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    i think they both have VVT but one is mechanical and the other is electronic cant remember what way round though
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  7. mordz
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    mordz Audi S3 (2000)

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    Hmm im not sure, im sure the 225 has the VVT

    *EDIT*

    found this on netcarshow.com

    "The first generation S3 is built on the same A platform of the Audi A3, Volkswagen Golf, Audi TT, SEAT León and Škoda Octavia. The straight-4 20V 1.8 L turbocharged petrol engine comes in two versions of power output: 210 bhp and 225 bhp. Early models (1999-2002) had 210 bhp which is said to be de-tuned Audi TT engine and was specifically reduced to lessen brand competition with the more powerful TT. Later models (2002-2003) had variable valve timing and 225 bhp. The engine provides a maximum 280 N•m of torque, most of which is available from 2200 through to 5500 rpm. This is the first time a small four-cylinder engine has been used in an Audi S-series car."

    hope that helps Will
    #7
  8. StaffsS3
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    StaffsS3 Flat Out

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    I had exactly the same thoughts when buying mine a few weeks back. I drove a 225 and a 210. i bought the 210 as it was a better all round car, with the right spec and mileage. I then spent the best £300 on a remap (chipped uk in Bromsgrove). Jason at ChippedUK basically said the same. The 210bhp model was only detuned to avoid direct competition with the TT power wise.
    I now have 265bhp and average 30mpg. Not bad for a car that makes me grin every time I drive it. I can't really see a down side of a 210bhp car if it's a good one like mine. :racer:
    #8
  9. sitrials
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    sitrials Member

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    i'm sure they both have VVT as mines a 210 and in 4th gear i get a second surge of power aorund 4500rpm like the 5th valve is kicking in!
    i'm pretty sure the engine is the same in both.
    #9
  10. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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  11. SimonP
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    SimonP Member

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    I went from a VR6 to an S3 too all those years ago. Took a while before I stopped stalling the S3, had got used to the pull away in third gear option of the VR6!

    I've owned both a 210 facelift and my current 225, and I don't think there's much in it at all - I've read posts that have said that their 210's are pushing out more than spec on a rolling road.

    I would look for the car in the best condition and worry less about which of the two engines it is. I wouldn't buy a pre-facelift though.

    One thing to note is that my late model 225 has had far less irritating niggly things go wrong with it than my early facelift 210, like xenon levelling, coil packs etc etc, and I put that down to continuous refinement by Audi during the production lifetime. On that basis if I had to choose another S3 I'd choose either a 210 that was made just before they switched to 225, or a late model 225, and try and avoid any that were first off the production line.
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  12. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    Thanks for the help guys!!

    My budget may only stretch to a 210 model which may sway the decision!

    I would like as late a model as possible as this will just be a newer car but if the facelifted 210 is pretty much the same car after being remapped then I may go for that option!
    #12
  13. paul_brad
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    paul_brad Member

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    You can get 210s up to 2002 mate, just for your reference.
    Although there will be an equal amount of 225s by then. (Mine is a Jan 2002 210)
    #13
  14. Spacecowboy
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    Spacecowboy Member

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    I can forward anyone an article from an Audi magazine that basically says the 210 Vs 225 is a mis-conception and that they are all really 225. Audi lied to make TT owners feel special. PM me with email addy if you would like it. Also is a good feature on what to look out for etc etc.
    #14
  15. Spacecowboy
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    Spacecowboy Member

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    Can you give me more details on this company as i am based in Worcester and the website is knackered today!
    #15
  16. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    APY was non-VVT, AMK and BAM engines were, although the VVT is used at idle not as per the Honda V-Tecs. The main differences between the AMK 210 and the BAM 225 are the ecu and injectors.
    #16
  17. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    I am bascially looking for an AMK or BAM engine anyway....If I go down the route of modifying the engine beyond a chip then I'd be looking at injectors anyway so surely there would be no difference?!

    Will
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  18. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    No noticable difference. Chipped or otherwise, the AMK will be cheaper to insure.
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  19. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    Cheers then....the search continues!!

    Thanks for the help!

    Will
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  20. paul_brad
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    paul_brad Member

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    dont underestimate the insurance difference between the 2, I think AMK 210 is group 17, where as BAM 225 is 18. At that level, it meant nearly another £100 a year if I had a 225. (£500 odd versus £600 odd)
    Just another random snippet for you there.
    #20
  21. madvw
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    madvw Active Member

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    exactly as chris says - the VVT is only active during idle - and has no effect on power output - i guess it's just there for stricter emissions.

    It may be worth noting also that the rod pins are 1mm larger on the 210, making the internals slightly stronger too. People have said in the past that they're a bit itchy on having 350hp on stock 225 internals, favouring the 210 internals as a base instead.
    #21
  22. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    That's almost right, but its the APY that has the larger gudgeon pins (20mm), and the large port head. The AMK and BAM have the same internals (19mm pins)
    #22
  23. mordz
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    mordz Audi S3 (2000)

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    Interesting stuff guys :D
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  24. MarkyB
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    MarkyB Member

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    If you're picking up a 210 then it's more than likely that the owner has already had to replace the coil-packs. The dodgy ones barely last 10K miles before giving up.

    I have a late 210 AMK S3 and it most definitely has VVT.

    Big thing to watch when buying an A3/S3 is that the cam-belt has been changed. Service book says 60K miles, but VW/Audi issued a service bulletin in June 2006 advising people to get it changed every 40K or 4 YEARS (whichever comes first).

    People usually get the water-pump and belt tensioner replaced at the same time as they also have a habit of going (so much for the legendary German Build Quality). Factor in £450 ~ £600 for that service work if it's not been done yet, you really do not want to have to fork out for a recon engine if the cam belt fails!!! :(

    Cheers,

    Mark.
    #24
  25. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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    Yeah, I've got that article as well although from my personal experience my AMK on the RR at QST came up with 211bhp as standard. There were no fault codes and everything was as it should be. So either the engine was 14bhp down, or it was doing what it was supposed to. Either way, it remapped up to 261bhp.
    #25
  26. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    Thanks guys!!

    Well here are the two I am looking at:

    http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/www/cars_popup.jsp?did=12292&pageid=2&originalid=&gid=nogroup&tid=40&start=9&distance=0&adcategory=cars&channel=DEALERPAGE&id=200715279889496

    http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/www/CARS_popup.jsp?nU=0&make=AUDI&model=S3&min_pr=9000&max_pr=10000&postcode=KT13%209AT&miles=40&max_records=200&modelexact=1&photo=1&hassearched=Y&start=3&distance=12&adcategory=CARS&channel=CARS&id=200718282768179

    http://www.photobox.co.uk/slideshow/viewer.html?c_album=5533073

    I test drove the black one this morning and it is a lovely car, doesn't seem to have anything wrong with it...

    I'm seeing the green one after work tonight and it does have more going for it but has done 85000miles. How do S3s take mileage?

    I'm coming from a VR6 with 105000 and my girlfriend's VR6 has 143000 miles and are both faultless....are Audi S3s the same??!!

    I don't want to buy a car that I'm spending a lot on to keep it on the road!!

    Any help would be great before 5pm today!!!

    Will
    #26
  27. Aky
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    Aky Aky

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    The green one will be a bitch to shift when it comes to selling it.
    Its the same colour as my wellies.
    #27
  28. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    I quite like the colour....am I a bad person?!!
    #28
  29. JamS3
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    JamS3 Active Member

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    I had a VR6 and they cover big miles no problem, the S3 engine will struggle with the sort of miles you mention that your girlfriends car has done!
    #29
  30. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    S3 will do them miles easier than a VR
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  31. rodenal
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    rodenal Active Member

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    Yeah i dont agree with the statement about s3's and mileage either, as i said in another thread my friend had one with about 150k on it if not more, and it was still running very sweetly, as with anything he looked after it well and it lasted.

    Also i've seen an S3 in that green colour and it looked lovely on the road imo
    #31
  32. monkeytrousers
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    monkeytrousers Member

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    I've heard this rumour as well but I don't buy it. The TT and the S3 are surely aimed at different markets (ie the TT for women, hairdressers and poseurs; the S3 for the thinking man who knows better than to buy Jap cars). And wasn't the S3 more expensive anyway? Besides, the TT was available as a 180 as well as a 225 (and now even a 150!)

    Good condition facelift S3s seem to be really sought after at the moment. Make me an offer - mine's beautiful! :blackrs4:
    #32
  33. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    I'm going to test drive the green one at 2pm today. It has Bose, Amd remap, miltek cat back and dump valve(forgot what make). It has done 85000miles and the cambelt/waterpump was done by Awesome GTi at 60000ish, it was then remapped by Amd at about 70000ish....seems like a lot of car for the money and I think the guy wants to shift it as he owned it, sold it to a mate who then PX'd it back to him about 3 months later!!

    I'll let you know what I think and I've decided that I like the colour, probably as I like British Racing Green and have always loved Oak Green 16v mkII Golfs!!

    Cheers for the help,

    Will
    #33
  34. mk1chopper
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    mk1chopper Missing the S3

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    nowt wrong with a goodwood green S3 (but then i would say that!)
    [​IMG]
    #34
  35. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    I thought it was a fantastic car....the only question is that it has a Sachs paddle clutch which I'm not sure what it would be like to live with one....

    Other than that it was fine!!

    He is not a registered dealer so there is no warrenty, no tax etc...I now there are so many horror stories on the net that you become over cautious!!
    #35
  36. Aky
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    Aky Aky

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    I've just taken out warranty with my breakdown cover. It costs £45 for the year but covers most things with unlimited number of claims but a maximum for £1500 on repairs with no excess.
    #36
  37. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    Thanks for letting me know that!

    Will
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  38. PorkyWill
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    PorkyWill Member

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    small update....the HPI is back and there is a mileage discrepancy on the HPI, looks like a mistake on the servicers part but I'm looking into it...

    24/01/04 - 56000
    24/01/07 - 85000
    30/01/07 - 60000
    11/05/07 - 85000

    The National Mileage Records have spoken to the garage relating to the 60000 mile service who claim to have no record of this car????

    Oh and it's an AMK engine not BAM as I thought. Remapped it has a power run at Awesome of 248.5bhp which seems a little low?

    Will
    #38

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