Advanced key - easy theft

If I park away from my home (e.g. in town car park etc.). There isn't an option to steal the keys, at least until I return to the car. With keyless they could drive away without having to wait for me.

Surely, many criminals would be happy to do a cheeky keyless OBD hack but would draw the line at confronting an owner?
 
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It's even better than that!

You're away from home, eating in a restaurant, with your key in your pocket. Your car is parked around the corner.

Armed with antennas, researchers at ETH Zurich in Switzerland were able to trick 10 models from 8 manufacturers into thinking the car key fob was within proximity and drive away with these "stolen" vehicles. No scratched doors, no broken glass, and no busted ignitions.

The antennas worked as repeaters to trick the vehicle system into thinking the fob is right outside the car door. It doesn't matter how strong the encryption is, this works legitimately as design intended.

It might even work through your front door - if your key is withing 8 metres of the antenna ;)

Solution? Wrap your key in layers of tin foil ;)

Source: MIT Technology Review
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/422298/car-theft-by-antenna/page/1/
 
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a3_phil said:
If I park away from my home (e.g. in town car park etc.). There isn't an option to steal the keys, at least until I return to the car. With keyless they could drive away without having to wait for me.

Surely, many criminals would be happy to do a cheeky keyless OBD hack but would draw the line at confronting an owner?
Click to expand...

And you think the criminals are going to smash your window, plug in a laptop and do their stuff without being noticed in a town car park?
 
veeeight said:
It's even better than that!

You're away from home, eating in a restaurant, with your key in your pocket. Your car is parked around the corner.

Armed with antennas, researchers at ETH Zurich in Switzerland were able to trick 10 models from 8 manufacturers into thinking the car key fob was within proximity and drive away with these "stolen" vehicles. No scratched doors, no broken glass, and no busted ignitions.

The antennas worked as repeaters to trick the vehicle system into thinking the fob is right outside the car door. It doesn't matter how strong the encryption is, this works legitimately as design intended.

It might even work through your front door - if your key is withing 8 metres of the antenna ;)

Solution? Wrap your key in layers of tin foil ;)

Source: MIT Technology Review
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/422298/car-theft-by-antenna/page/1/
Click to expand...

Whereas a duplicate physical key can be created with even just a photo of the original these days, which can then be used to open the door, plug in the laptop and proceed as before.
 
cemerson said:
Whereas a duplicate physical key can be created with even just a photo of the original these days, which can then be used to open the door, plug in the laptop and proceed as before.
Click to expand...


Ah, there's the matter of getting hold of, or sighting the physical key then!

Something you don't need to do with KESSY ;)
 
veeeight said:
It's even better than that!

You're away from home, eating in a restaurant, with your key in your pocket. Your car is parked around the corner.

Armed with antennas, researchers at ETH Zurich in Switzerland were able to trick 10 models from 8 manufacturers into thinking the car key fob was within proximity and drive away with these "stolen" vehicles. No scratched doors, no broken glass, and no busted ignitions.

The antennas worked as repeaters to trick the vehicle system into thinking the fob is right outside the car door. It doesn't matter how strong the encryption is, this works legitimately as design intended.

It might even work through your front door - if your key is withing 8 metres of the antenna ;)

Solution? Wrap your key in layers of tin foil ;)

Source: MIT Technology Review
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/422298/car-theft-by-antenna/page/1/
Click to expand...

Coming soon to an Audi catalogue ; tin foil lined man purses to keep your keys in.

cemerson said:
And you think the criminals are going to smash your window, plug in a laptop and do their stuff without being noticed in a town car park?
Click to expand...

Yeah, but equally I'm probably not going to be robbed in broad daylight in the car park. If it's late at night in a dark corner it could be done from a car parked right next to it (as an example).
 
veeeight said:
Ah, there's the matter of getting hold of, or sighting the physical key then!

Something you don't need to do with KESSY ;)
Click to expand...

Sighting a physical key is easy when you just wait until someone gets it out to get back in their car, or have just got out the car... about as easy as getting within range of the owner of the wireless key in fact!
 
The stats show that the VAST majority of thefts are from stealing the keys. This kind of theft is getting media attention recently because it's a new thing, but then so has every other new method of breaking into a car, or disabling trackers, or whatever it might be. I don't believe for one minute that the statistics bear out this massively over-hyped risk of owning a car with keyless ignition.
 
cemerson said:
Sighting a physical key is easy when you just wait until someone gets it out to get back in their car, or have just got out the car... about as easy as getting within range of the owner of the wireless key in fact!
Click to expand...


The fact still remains that you don't have to have sight or possession of the KESSY "key" ;)

And if you're like me, you only unfold the "flip" key once in the car, and fold it back again before getting out of the car ;)
 
I believe (would need to see up to date ONS statistics) that car crime in general has been falling in recent years.

The courts were also told to crack down on sentencing for aggravated burglary (entering your house while armed) in 2011, meaning that it became a much higher risk crime to try and get keys in this way.
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/may/12/punishments-for-burglary-sentencing-council
My mate is a head magistrate and they were told to clamp down heavily on any criminals who break into houses for car keys (especialy if armed).
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/aggravated_burglery/

Regard stats for house break-ins, the bottom paragraph here is relevant.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/crime/insight-and-analysis/trends-and-analysis-from-the-figures/

I would also expect the insurance underwiters to have a pretty good picture of whats going on. They look at facts and make decisions based on the facts.
 
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I do admire the ability of the single man advanced key internet defence force to ignore every piece of evidence in this thread.

Surely you'd still need to copy the immobiliser inside the key. Not something that can be done from a photo?

I can see why youd be a little miffed if you'd spent £450 on the easy theft key ;)
 
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This debate just keeps going around in circles lol....
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, just personal preference in the way you want to handle it
 
Bit like an S3 stolen for a joyride.
 
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I'll be honest here, and say, in all honesty.......


.... I didn't spec Advanced Key because........





............. I couldn't live with the fact that the Start Button is on the wrong side of the car, for a RHD car !!!!


True Story.
 
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....come on guys and the more we talk about here on an open forum just gives them more confidence to do it with all this disparaging talk.
 
OliJ said:
I do admire the ability of the single man advanced key internet defence force to ignore every piece of evidence in this thread.

Surely you'd still need to copy the immobiliser inside the key. Not something that can be done from a photo?

I can see why youd be a little miffed if you'd spent £450 on the easy theft key ;)
Click to expand...

But this thread means nothing other than representing panic and hysteria from those who haven't got it. There is no evidence other than a few criminal gangs who are operating and targeting some, a small number of vehicles. The evidence always points to it being easier to steal the key in the first place and the statistics prove this. It is those who can't seem to accept this that seem to have their heads in the sand. I am not miffed at all, quite the contrary as I have a system that suits my needs perfectly and I have yet to have a keyless car stolen, unlike many of the key cars I have had trashed by those either stealing them, or trying to steal them...
 
N
SuddsD said:
....come on guys and the more we talk about here on an open forum just gives them more confidence to do it with all this disparaging talk.
Click to expand...

Exactly, hence my reference to 'secondary deviancy', Along time ago the News of the World published how to sniff glue and what substances could be used and from where, the paper obviously didn't improve, after which glue sniffing took off and the occurrences of it occurring dramatically increased. Therefore coining another phrase of a 'self fulfilling prophecy'.

As a person who used to work with hard core criminals in my experience the last thing you ever should let them feel is that they have power over you....
 
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There is plenty of evidence! All posted earlier. Videos, stories of BMW owners.

But yes. The best idea is to put our collective heads in the sand, instead of actually making a fuss. Maybe if we're really quiet no one will know. Which would save those people at Audi fixing it as i know theyre very busy.

Funny isnt it, when security flaws get published they quickly get fixed, even when the discoverer has tried to tell the manufacturers discretely. See Windows et al.
 
cuke2u said:
There is no evidence other than a few criminal gangs who are operating and targeting some, a small number of vehicles.
Click to expand...


In ONE month (March 2012), over 300 BMW's with keyless entry were stolen from the West Midlands alone. That is not a "small number of vehicles" stolen by cloning a keyless entry car.



The evidence always points to it being easier to steal the key in the first place and the statistics prove this.
Click to expand...


What evidence, stats, where? I haven't seen any breakdown to this level, give us a link to the stats?
 
veeeight said:
The fact still remains that you don't have to have sight or possession of the KESSY "key" ;)

And if you're like me, you only unfold the "flip" key once in the car, and fold it back again before getting out of the car ;)
Click to expand...

Exactly - it only gets unflipped just before it goes in the ignition slot; no chance of sighting it.

cuke2u - you seem reluctant to acknowledge the fact that with the advanced key, there's a new method available for your car to go AWOL that does not exist with the normal key, so I'm not clear who has their "head in the sand" on this issue but it is not me...

And the stats that would be interesting (but I am not aware of them being available) are these:
  • How many cars stolen/month via "normal" key theft?
  • How many cars stolen/month via advanced key methods?
We'd need a few years' data to make it interesting and see how the graphs stack up.
 
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a3_phil said:
Yeah, but equally I'm probably not going to be robbed in broad daylight in the car park. If it's late at night in a dark corner it could be done from a car parked right next to it (as an example).
Click to expand...

What you doing hanging around in dark corners, late at night??;) :undwech:

Seriously though, this thread is just going full circle, each person will have their reasons for having or not having advanced key. The tragic thing is, its all driven by the fact we're stressing & worrying about these things due to the acts of a few others. First world problems hey...........
 
http://www.car-theft.org/theft-methods/ is one example, funnily enough, in 2011 the Ford Transit was the most stolen vehicle, now the number BMW X5's are rising but not because of the way they are stolen but because like anything expensive they attract the wrong sort of person so what ever security device is fitted, if they want it, they will get it...
 
Schuey said:
What you doing hanging around in dark corners, late at night??;) :undwech:

Seriously though, this thread is just going full circle, each person will have their reasons for having or not having advanced key. The tragic thing is, its all driven by the fact we're stressing & worrying about these things due to the acts of a few others. First world problems hey...........
Click to expand...

Some of us have very good reasons to be in dark car parks late at night.

I, for one, like to park next to expensive cars and try to hack their keyless entry systems. The last thing I want is to have my car stolen while I'm trying to steal someone else's car.
 
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0B1001001 said:
Exactly - it only gets unflipped just before it goes in the ignition slot; no chance of sighting it.

cuke2u - you seem reluctant to acknowledge the fact that with the advanced key, there's a new method available for your car to go AWOL that does not exist with the normal key, so I'm not clear who has their "head in the sand" on this issue but it is not me...

And the stats that would be interesting (but I am not aware of them being available) are these:
  • How many cars stolen/month via "normal" key theft?
  • How many cars stolen/month via advanced key methods?
We'd need a few years' data to make it interesting and see how the graphs stack up.
Click to expand...

I am not reluctant to acknowledge anything other than, when I used to live in a time when a 50p screwdriver would gain access to your car and steal it, I would be about worrying about it and the panic that some seem to want to go into over what I consider to be a useful and good security method. If your car is going to be stolen it will be, what ever security you use. As soon as the manufacturers think up a way of deterring thieves then the organised gangs will think up a way around it. There is no point in losing any sleep over it at all. Fact is the majority of motor vehicles are taken by having the keys, this being down to lax security on behalf of the owner or the keys being taken in a house entry, not by overcoming the keyless entry...
 
cuke2u said:
Fact is the majority of motor vehicles are taken by having the keys
Click to expand...


You still quote this as fact, but still haven't given use any valid statistics to back this statement up.

The link you provided in post #184 is more than a little vague, no references, no date, we don't even know if the data included keyless entry cars at the time of the survey.

Anyone could have made that pie chart up !
 
Interesting thoughts in this thread ...

Personally, I think we need to get back to more 'physical' anti-theft devices rather than rely on 'electronic' ones

& yes I know, if the ***** really want to steal you car, there's not a lot you can do about it
 
veeeight said:
You still quote this as fact, but still haven't given use any valid statistics to back this statement up.

The link you provided in post #184 is more than a little vague, no references, no date, we don't even know if the data included keyless entry cars at the time of the survey.

Anyone could have made that pie chart up !
Click to expand...
But neither have you, you quoted 300 BMW's in the Midlands and make a acausal relationship between those vehicles and having keyless but fail to spot the obvious that if organised gangs target a car, irrespective of the security, they would have taken them anyway. That is what organised criminals do...
 
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cuke2u said:
But neither have you, you quoted 300 BMW's in the Midlands and make a acausal relationship between those vehicles and having keyless but fail to spot the obvious that if organised gangs target a car, irrespective of the security, they would have taken them anyway. That is what organised criminals do...
Click to expand...


You're the one berating everyone for causing "hysteria and panic" (your words) based on no evidence, yet you casually toss in sentences with the word "fact" preceding them, based on no statistics nor fact!

Are you now saying that an equal number of cars would have been stolen, if they had conventional keys? :lmfao:

Head definitely in sand ;)



References for cars stolen in 2012 using technology to bypass/clone Keyless Entry cars::

"Between 1 January 2012 and 1 March 2012, 154 BMW vehicles have been stolen from across the Midlands Region."
"The thief then enters the vehicle when the coast is clear and uses a device on the vehicle which programs a blank key."
from: Warwickshire Police Press Release: http://www.safer-neighbourhoods.co....cles-without-keys-across-the-midlands-region/

“The thief uses a device on the vehicle which programmes a blank key”
from BBC Watchdog http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/jB77dRvB9C6PQHX46htHpy/bmw-open-to-car-theft

"The thieves accomplished this by accessing the BMW OBD port in the footwell by breaking the glass, reaching in and using a device to reprogram a blank key fob."
"BMW doesn't seem to want to admit they have a problem, even though over 300 cars have been stolen in March 2012 in a single UK county."
from: http://www.autocar.co.uk/forum/any-other-business/stolen-bmw-1m-cctv and
http://www.networkworld.com/article...r-theft--3-minutes-to-steal-keyless-bmws.html

"Most of the cars were being taken by using hi-tech gadgets available through the internet that could steal security data from a targeted car’s on-board computer and programme it onto blank keys." - West Midlands Police
from: http://www.expressandstar.com/news/...ds-police-recover-stolen-top-cars-worth-2-5m/

"BMW had a significant security problem with some of its models produced between 2007 and 2011, which made them fairly easy to steal for high-tech criminals armed with the right electronic gadgets."
from: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/crime/bmw


In this particular period (early 2012), with those particular models, it's pretty irrefutable that a BMW keyless car, was far easier to steal, than one with a conventional key.
 
Soulboy said:
I would also expect the insurance underwiters to have a pretty good picture of whats going on. They look at facts and make decisions based on the facts.
Click to expand...

Good point. And other than the case with the range rovers (which appears to be specific to that model), it doesn't cost any more to insure a car with keyless ignition.
 
OliJ said:
Surely you'd still need to copy the immobiliser inside the key. Not something that can be done from a photo?
Click to expand...

This is done using the laptop in exactly the same way as for the keyless version. You don't need an immobiliser to get through the door.
 
When this thread runs out of steam, we will need another one for some 'robust chat'.
I was thinking the obvious..... DSG v manual, or Apple v Android.
But I may go left field and go with RWD v 4WD.:devilish:
 
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This is nothing. This robust chat is relatively civil.

When PilotAudi was around, things soon escalated to name calling and some pretty ugly generalisations !

And then politics usually got brought into it too !!
 
Soulboy said:
When this thread runs out of steam, we will need another one for some 'robust chat'.
I was thinking the obvious..... DSG v manual, or Apple v Android.
But I may go left field and go with RWD v 4WD.:devilish:
Click to expand...

Good point. My convenient gearbox will be changing gear for some dirty thief. How dare it! I feel so betrayed.
 
I watched the BMW M and RS theft - why did the alarm not make any noise on both models?

I'm hunting for an OBD lock.
 
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