s3_trev
Northern Ireland
I find it astounding that 1 person has had their car stolen 6 times. The odds of that must be similar to winning the lottery.
Advanced key - easy theft
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s3_trev
Northern Ireland
Tony1982
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After being a big fan of keyless entry and push start for 5 years now, and having never had a single problem in that time, I have succumbed to the massive spate of bad press it has received in the recent months and today I have had it removed from my order. I really think that it is a great extra to have but with all this bad press it has gotten lately, clearly there is a problem. It may well just be scare mongering, but even if the security of a car is only minimally affected, it is an extra method for thieves to exploit, Fact. My car on order is the best part of £40k and for the sake of £400 and being a little less lazy, I would rather not offer thieves an additional method to steal it. I will miss the convenience of not having to take the key out of my pocket though.
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Without wishing to open up a can of worms again, I've yet to see a single person on this forum give first hand experience of such a theft. Yes, there is obviously something going on with these type of thefts, but there is also a lot of scaremongering.
Without wishing to open up a can of worms again, there is also a lot of denial going on in here .....................
I agree, to many seem to have been influenced and paranoid by tomorrow's food wrappers and the fear of what might never happen. After driving around using the quaint old fashioned method of starting a car, and repeatedly forgetting to take the key out of my pocket and then put up with it banging against my right knee, I will be so glad to get back my safe and secure car. Anyone consider how dangerous it is to have a key and that switch in that position and what it'll do to your legs in a accident?
Blackwhite
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When I ordered my car in July, (without advanced key) because I
had a bad feeling of that option. This was before I read and joined the forum. After I joined and read people's views, I am so glad that I did not order it!
had a bad feeling of that option. This was before I read and joined the forum. After I joined and read people's views, I am so glad that I did not order it!
I used to have a car with a push button start system but it did not have any form of central locking. It was nearly 50 years ago and it was an original Mini, where the start button was on the floor between the front seats. With that system you had to put a key in the ignition and turn it on and then press the start button. Perhaps that is why the "advanced system" is so named ! I must say I much prefer the current (key in ignition and turn) system. 
With the "key in the ignition" after you have turned off the ignition, quite a few other things happen when the key is physically removed from the key slot. How does this work with the so called advanced key.
With the "key in the ignition" after you have turned off the ignition, quite a few other things happen when the key is physically removed from the key slot. How does this work with the so called advanced key.
A load of stuff (sound off, screen in, DRLs off etc) happens when you open the door after turning the ignition off.
I really don't get what the big deal is! If a car thief has the electronic gizmo to start your keyless car then all they need to start your keyed car is the same equipment and a ten pound Audi lock picker. I have one that I got for my A4 as I locked my key in the boot a number of times with no spare and used it to retrieve it with ease.
As has been said, if someone wants to steal your car enough they will have it keyed or keyless keys in their possession or not.
Just my tuppence worth but mountain out of molehill springs to mind!
As has been said, if someone wants to steal your car enough they will have it keyed or keyless keys in their possession or not.
Just my tuppence worth but mountain out of molehill springs to mind!
s3_trev
Northern Ireland
I believe that is incorrect. I think its only cars with keyless that allow the thieves to do whatever it is that they do...
That's the thing, everything is based on belief!
The apparent cause of the ease in which a keyless car can be stolen is because manufacturers have had to publish information to allow non dealerships to make keys for cars. This means that even for keyed cars the technology can be made to override the immobiliser, which once you've turned the ignition lock is the only thing stopping your car being stolen.
I've read up on a number articles over the years about immobilisers and keys as I was looking to replace the instrument cluster in my A4 B7 and the immobiliser coding was one thing I had to overcome if I was going to do this. It's not really all that difficult if you really want to overcome it so I'm sure hardcore car thieves will manage if they want to.
The apparent cause of the ease in which a keyless car can be stolen is because manufacturers have had to publish information to allow non dealerships to make keys for cars. This means that even for keyed cars the technology can be made to override the immobiliser, which once you've turned the ignition lock is the only thing stopping your car being stolen.
I've read up on a number articles over the years about immobilisers and keys as I was looking to replace the instrument cluster in my A4 B7 and the immobiliser coding was one thing I had to overcome if I was going to do this. It's not really all that difficult if you really want to overcome it so I'm sure hardcore car thieves will manage if they want to.
This is where the difference is.
In a physical metal keyed fob, the RFID chip has to be right next to the ignition barrel where the RF ring antenna is, to start the car.
So you need the correct physical key and RFID chip to start the car, or, code up a new RFID chip via the OBD port.
But you still need a metal key, or smash off the steering lock, and fiddle about with wires to get ignition & starter etc.
In keyless, the immobiliser RFID is compromised by the convenience of the challenge/response, and there is now no need to have it right next to the ignition barrel (except in an emergency - there is a place to put the key fob against) - so all the thief has to do is to provide the correct response to the challenge (when you put your hand inside the inductive loop inside the door handle) and everything is unlocked and you are able to start the car with the button. No physical key or physical RFID chip needed. No need to smash the steering lock off, no need to mess around with wires.
Without going into it too much, the encryption key for the challenge/response is stored on an EEPROM in the instrument pack.......
In a physical metal keyed fob, the RFID chip has to be right next to the ignition barrel where the RF ring antenna is, to start the car.
So you need the correct physical key and RFID chip to start the car, or, code up a new RFID chip via the OBD port.
But you still need a metal key, or smash off the steering lock, and fiddle about with wires to get ignition & starter etc.
In keyless, the immobiliser RFID is compromised by the convenience of the challenge/response, and there is now no need to have it right next to the ignition barrel (except in an emergency - there is a place to put the key fob against) - so all the thief has to do is to provide the correct response to the challenge (when you put your hand inside the inductive loop inside the door handle) and everything is unlocked and you are able to start the car with the button. No physical key or physical RFID chip needed. No need to smash the steering lock off, no need to mess around with wires.
Without going into it too much, the encryption key for the challenge/response is stored on an EEPROM in the instrument pack.......
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I have never been a lover of advanced key (my personal choice) but reading V8's above comments assures me that my thinking is right with this particular piece of technology
I disagree with a couple of points there.
Firstly the lack of a physical metal key is not something that is difficult to overcome and I don't mean by smashing off the steering lock and ignition barrel. There is a well known device, which can be bought for £15, which will unlock and turn the ignition barrel in any VAG car in a few seconds in the right hands.
Secondly the advanced key (and all other keyless entry systems) require the key to be in the vehicle to work after to the doors are unlocked. There are numerous youtube videos showing that the car will not start even after being unlocked with the key if the key is then removed from inside the vehicle. As such the thief needs to have some way to then fool the immobiliser system into thinking the key is in the vehicle, which is no different to what they would have to do once the ignition barrel has been turned with the lock pick. Whether this be to an RFID sensor at the ignition barrel or the scanning one for the advanced key.
It would require knowledge of the security system to write the code and create the hardware to plug into the OBD and gain the required security access. Which is applicable to both types of key entry. And both will have been divulged under the new laws which mean car manufacturers cannot hold the monopoly on key cutting and programming.
As has been said many times, if someone wants your car they will take it. Even if that means rocking up with a truck and lifting it on the back of it. No physical key is going to stop that!
And in my opinion, the "additional security" provided by having a bit of metal that needs to hold a chip next to the steering wheel is so negligible, for the above reasons, that it isn't worth mentioning.
Looking at it a different way you could go as far as to say that having the advanced key is more secure because your common garden car thief can't just buy the £15 pick break into the car and undo the steering lock and tow the car away!!
Firstly the lack of a physical metal key is not something that is difficult to overcome and I don't mean by smashing off the steering lock and ignition barrel. There is a well known device, which can be bought for £15, which will unlock and turn the ignition barrel in any VAG car in a few seconds in the right hands.
Secondly the advanced key (and all other keyless entry systems) require the key to be in the vehicle to work after to the doors are unlocked. There are numerous youtube videos showing that the car will not start even after being unlocked with the key if the key is then removed from inside the vehicle. As such the thief needs to have some way to then fool the immobiliser system into thinking the key is in the vehicle, which is no different to what they would have to do once the ignition barrel has been turned with the lock pick. Whether this be to an RFID sensor at the ignition barrel or the scanning one for the advanced key.
It would require knowledge of the security system to write the code and create the hardware to plug into the OBD and gain the required security access. Which is applicable to both types of key entry. And both will have been divulged under the new laws which mean car manufacturers cannot hold the monopoly on key cutting and programming.
As has been said many times, if someone wants your car they will take it. Even if that means rocking up with a truck and lifting it on the back of it. No physical key is going to stop that!
And in my opinion, the "additional security" provided by having a bit of metal that needs to hold a chip next to the steering wheel is so negligible, for the above reasons, that it isn't worth mentioning.
Looking at it a different way you could go as far as to say that having the advanced key is more secure because your common garden car thief can't just buy the £15 pick break into the car and undo the steering lock and tow the car away!!
With conventional key - you need to get to the OBD port to pair a new RFID chip to start the car.
With Keyless - you can use the OBD port to download the encryption key, or you don't even have to get to the OBD port to break the encryption (you can do it via RF).
With keyless - no close proximity RFID - It is the removal of this additional step of requiring a RFID chip to be in close proximity to the barrel, and instead relying on LF & UHF RF on a keyless system, therefore, compared to a conventional key, presents a weakness which was not present if the car had a conventional key.
In addition, keyless is also subject to RF relay attacks - simply put your hand in the handle, car issues the challenge via LF, you have a simple RF relay amplifier which wakes up the key in your house. Key issues response via UHF, this is relayed back to the car and you open the door, get in, start the car, and off you go.
Re the £15 Lock Pick - yes, relatively easy to open the door, but then you have 10 seconds to use the lock pick in the ignition barrel (not as easy as the doors) to get the ignition on, before the audible car alarm (for what it's worth) starts sounding. With keyless, the audible alarm is helpfully silenced once the doors are opened via the RF communications.
We are going round in circles with this, it cannot be denied that having a Keyless System presents additional methods to start the car, that were not present in one with a conventional key.
And yes, if they want your car, they will take it. Regardless of which system it has. But one has more ways to crack it than then other.
With Keyless - you can use the OBD port to download the encryption key, or you don't even have to get to the OBD port to break the encryption (you can do it via RF).
With keyless - no close proximity RFID - It is the removal of this additional step of requiring a RFID chip to be in close proximity to the barrel, and instead relying on LF & UHF RF on a keyless system, therefore, compared to a conventional key, presents a weakness which was not present if the car had a conventional key.
In addition, keyless is also subject to RF relay attacks - simply put your hand in the handle, car issues the challenge via LF, you have a simple RF relay amplifier which wakes up the key in your house. Key issues response via UHF, this is relayed back to the car and you open the door, get in, start the car, and off you go.
Re the £15 Lock Pick - yes, relatively easy to open the door, but then you have 10 seconds to use the lock pick in the ignition barrel (not as easy as the doors) to get the ignition on, before the audible car alarm (for what it's worth) starts sounding. With keyless, the audible alarm is helpfully silenced once the doors are opened via the RF communications.
We are going round in circles with this, it cannot be denied that having a Keyless System presents additional methods to start the car, that were not present in one with a conventional key.
And yes, if they want your car, they will take it. Regardless of which system it has. But one has more ways to crack it than then other.
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It would be nice if a bit more were being done at government level about car crime. Checking shipping containers or replacing speed cameras with ANPR which could be automatically activated as soon as a car is stolen, immediately springs to mind.
The ba5tards who are nicking then all need to be stopped.
The ba5tards who are nicking then all need to be stopped.
Liquidfusion-S3
I fall to peer pressure!
It's a conspiracy, the government are part of the scam. More cars stolen = more tax money going in to their pockets as more cars are being bought to replace
Replacement cars bought = tax
Higher insurance premium = more tax
Gap insurance = tax
Cars stripped and sold = tax
It's an income revenue in itself
Replacement cars bought = tax
Higher insurance premium = more tax
Gap insurance = tax
Cars stripped and sold = tax
It's an income revenue in itself
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Anyone worried by this should consider this, which is relatively new to the market:-
http://www.trackerfit.co.uk/stolen-vehicle-trackers/trackstar-advance.html
They can clone away, but the car ain't gonna start in the first place without a major rewiring job. I understand that these are selling by the bucket load to BMW and Range Rover owners.
Liquidfusion-S3
I fall to peer pressure!
I think this thread needs to be closed now, it's been done to death with people recycling comments.
The issue hasn't gone away though .......
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...of-luxury-cars-by-hitech-thieves-9935431.html
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...of-luxury-cars-by-hitech-thieves-9935431.html
Liquidfusion-S3
I fall to peer pressure!
"We are now introducing our fourth upgrade, which we are confident, will address the latest theft mechanisms being used.“
lol this made me laugh so hard, what utter b0ll0cks
lol this made me laugh so hard, what utter b0ll0cks
Good!
The sooner the manufacturers get their collective ar5es in gear and sort security out - the better.
The sooner the manufacturers get their collective ar5es in gear and sort security out - the better.
From the good old beeb. Good news and bad news but it puts it into perspective....
It is becoming much harder to steal cars. According to the UK Office for National Statistics, car theft has fallen from 318,000 in 2002 to 77,500 last year.
But thefts involving computer equipment used to circumvent security are rising. The SMMT is pushing for stronger legislation to help reverse this.
"The challenge remains that the equipment being used to steal a vehicle in this way is legitimately used by workshops to carry out routine maintenance," a spokesman said.
"As part of the need for open access to technical information to enable a flourishing after-market, this equipment is available to independent technicians. However a minority of individuals are exploiting this to obtain the equipment to access vehicles fraudulently.
"We need better safeguards within the regulatory framework to make sure this equipment does not fall into unlawful hands and, if it does, that the law provides severe penalties to act as an effective deterrent."
But Ian Crowder, from motorists' group the AA, warned the risk should not be overstated.
"By far the most common way of a car being stolen is still from thieves breaking into homes and stealing keys," he said.
"The keys are still the weakest link in a car security chain. If someone has your keys, they have your car."
It is becoming much harder to steal cars. According to the UK Office for National Statistics, car theft has fallen from 318,000 in 2002 to 77,500 last year.
But thefts involving computer equipment used to circumvent security are rising. The SMMT is pushing for stronger legislation to help reverse this.
"The challenge remains that the equipment being used to steal a vehicle in this way is legitimately used by workshops to carry out routine maintenance," a spokesman said.
"As part of the need for open access to technical information to enable a flourishing after-market, this equipment is available to independent technicians. However a minority of individuals are exploiting this to obtain the equipment to access vehicles fraudulently.
"We need better safeguards within the regulatory framework to make sure this equipment does not fall into unlawful hands and, if it does, that the law provides severe penalties to act as an effective deterrent."
But Ian Crowder, from motorists' group the AA, warned the risk should not be overstated.
"By far the most common way of a car being stolen is still from thieves breaking into homes and stealing keys," he said.
"The keys are still the weakest link in a car security chain. If someone has your keys, they have your car."
Pull over expensive cars after midnight, police told
Traffic cops in an exclusive part of London are stopping all high-value cars late at night following a spate of thefts.
Almost half of vehicles stolen in London are taken through keyless theft [...], according to recent crime figures from the Met.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...xpensive-cars-after-midnight-police-told.html
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-in-crackdown-on-spate-of-thefts-9979074.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-ordered-stop-drivers-prestige-vehicles.html
Traffic cops in an exclusive part of London are stopping all high-value cars late at night following a spate of thefts.
Almost half of vehicles stolen in London are taken through keyless theft [...], according to recent crime figures from the Met.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...xpensive-cars-after-midnight-police-told.html
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-in-crackdown-on-spate-of-thefts-9979074.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-ordered-stop-drivers-prestige-vehicles.html
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Thousands of motorists across the West Midlands region have been left counting the cost as hi-tech thieves use ever more sophisticated methods to steal vehicles and valuables.
Between April and December 2014 West Midlands Police have recorded a total of 3,472 vehicle thefts and of those 1,234 were recorded as keyless crimes.
http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2015/01/17/thieves-use-hi-tech-methods-in-keyless-car-thefts/
Between April and December 2014 West Midlands Police have recorded a total of 3,472 vehicle thefts and of those 1,234 were recorded as keyless crimes.
http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2015/01/17/thieves-use-hi-tech-methods-in-keyless-car-thefts/
Despite claims to the contrary, this is patently a big problem. Frankly the car manufacturers should be held accountable for this pathetic lapse in security and should be ashamed of themselves. In this day and age it's not difficult to design a secure authentication system between key and car using standard public key encryption and embedded certificates. They've just got lazy and been caught out, big time.
I know no car is totally secure and, even if it is, they can still steal the keys or just tow it away but it's obvious the keyless systems are offering a far far easier avenue for the thieves to exploit. Very glad I don't have it tbh.
I know no car is totally secure and, even if it is, they can still steal the keys or just tow it away but it's obvious the keyless systems are offering a far far easier avenue for the thieves to exploit. Very glad I don't have it tbh.
Liquidfusion-S3
I fall to peer pressure!
Glad I decided to remove the advanced key option, even though I detest the flip key.
Who in this day and age uses a flip key??
For a £35k car you would expect something better
Who in this day and age uses a flip key??
For a £35k car you would expect something better
Park in Garage & Secure car parks
Good Insurance
GAP policy for years 2 onwards
Visible deterrent (steering lock)
Hidden deterrent (kill switch, rewired OBD etc)
Additional 3rd party immobiliser
https://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/security/
http://fleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/Oct/Keyless-entry/0434016430
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Ok, still seems to be Range Rovers and BMW's that are hitting the press. Not heard much about Audi but one can only assume that there is the same risk. A good product if you are concerned and want to take away the risk of cloning altogether, plus a tracker to boot is this:-
http://www.trackerfit.co.uk/stolen-vehicle-trackers/trackstar-advance.html
I understand that they are selling like hot cakes at the moment!
http://www.trackerfit.co.uk/stolen-vehicle-trackers/trackstar-advance.html
I understand that they are selling like hot cakes at the moment!
