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A6 Bi Turbo

Discussion in 'A6/S6/Allroad forum (C7 Chassis)' started by Audi Dynamik, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 12, 2012]
    Hello,
    I went to Audi last week and had a look around and came across a Demo Black A6 Bi Turbo, i have to say what a fantastic car !
    I started up the engine and had a good look round it and it just gave me a buzz ! Inside they are so much more classier bigger and luxurious to the A4, i got back in my A4 and it felt tiny ! I gave the engine a little rev and wow it justs sounds amazing although at this moment they are abit higher than my budget and i have only had my car about 16 months so i will wait abit and may purchase a second hand one around £40000
    #1
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  3. chasdrury
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    chasdrury Member

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    [Sep 14, 2012]
    We have one - picked it up in June. It's more like the previous gen A8 inside - lovely place to be. a big step up from the previous A6 that's for sure. And the engine. 36mpg easy (even going for it a bit) and it moves. Very quickly indeed!

    #2
  4. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 14, 2012]
    Glad your liking it ! :)
    #3
  5. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    im sorry ?
    #4
  6. Reload
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    Reload Bird is the Word!

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    [Sep 19, 2012]
    Seems like our hallowed forum has been invaded by spambots, brilliant!
    #5
  7. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Mar 3, 2013]
    I went back and forth through every quattro permutaion from 204PS to 313PS, TDI and petrol.... and here's my thoughts:

    If you're considering the BiTDI and (a) you're buying the car yourself and don't have to pay company car tax and (b) you're not doing mega-miles, then seriously consider the 3.0TFSI.... the 0-60 might be the same (actually very slightly slower than the BiTDI), but it's quicker off the mark to start, you'll feel the fact that it's 160kg lighter and it's more tunable if you ever get bored (425bhp is apparently pretty easy with a pulley change and remap)..... plus there's some great deals on the pre-reg'd ones since they don't do A6's in petrol any more.... expect them to knock off £20k on zero mileage examples and £30k for low mileage demo cars that have actually been used!

    Economy is not as good, but still: 40mpg if you leave it in "efficient" and are cruising, but 20mpg if you drive one like a loon the whole time: versus 50mpg-30mpg for the equivalent driving styles on the BiTDI, but petrol is 20% cheaper and as much as the "active accoustics" BiTDI trickery is nice, it doesn't beat that V6 petrol hitting nearly 7000rpm.

    Even if I own my TFSI for 10 years, I will have saved more money on the purchase price difference than I might have saved on fuel with any of the TDI's... certainly with the BiTDI!

    The different gearboxes are a bit more subjective: single plate slushbox is a bit smoother immediately off the line and you definitely notice the gear changes, so it's arguably a little bit more manual-like, but the seamless acceleration of the DSG when you're "making progress" is surreal and as far as I'm concerned, the only "downside" is there's less drama, so somehow it doesn't feel as fast as the surge and stop of the slower single plate gearbox...

    I'll be getting a manual 'box for my weekend runabout (tbc), but for the family cruiser I'll take the DSG every time.
    #6
  8. razza1
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    razza1 Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 6, 2013]
    Petrol will be more expensive though as it will use super unleaded so more cost per litre with less miles per gallon. Should still save vs initial cost difference
    #7
  9. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 6, 2013]
    What you don't see is that the diesel will depreciate at a slower rate, has better tuning potential and if you're preppared to trow a few grand replacing the turbo's then over 400 Bhp is well withing the realms of normal folk ! It will also burn less oil during the ownership and be much, much more reliable compared with the petrol counterpart ! Having 400bhp and 35Mpg average is nothing to sniff at ! Audi wanted to release the rs4 in a diesel variant, however it would have had poor sale values on paper due to purist like yourself ! Looking at LeMans races their v12 tdi engine still manages better fuel economy and higher average speeds than ANY petrol engine from their competitors even after peing penalised with fitting restrictors so the petrol supercars can keep up ! Think running a marathon breathing trough a straw !
    #8
  10. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Mar 8, 2013]
    If I was doing more miles, then the bitdi was a no brainer. For that much power plus economy, is live with the (minimal) turbo lag, my last car was a 2.5tdi quattro, so I am a TDI fan... Just losing my enthusiasm with the 20% premium being charged on what is a fundamentally cheaper fuel.
    #9
  11. razza1
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    razza1 Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 8, 2013]
    But on any decent petrol car you have to use super unleaded to get the best benefit and maintain it in good nick, and this is more expensive than diesel...
    #10
  12. xs2man
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    xs2man Member

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    [Jun 4, 2013]
    Not entirely sure where you are getting 20% difference from though? Surrey must be a right rip-off.

    Here there is 4p difference between petrol and diesel, and at 135ppl for diesel, so roughly a 3% difference in fuel costs. You then state a consumption difference of 10 mpg, which is approximately 25% of the values you are giving (based on 40mpg average). So by your own guestimations, 3% extra in fuel cost for 25% better economy. Not really to be sniffed at.

    On top of that, as said later, you have taken no account of the reduced depreciation of a diesel car, or the fact it will likely be easier to sell than a petrol equivalent.

    Overall, depending on how long you keep the vehicle, and your mileage, you would most likely be better off with the diesel. Unless your doing less than 8k miles per year (10k in the diesel due to the 25% better fuel economy), and keep the car until they have both depreciated to the same value (so probably 12-15 years), you'll be better off with the diesel.
    #11
  13. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Jul 31, 2013]
    Way less than 8k per year... and that's before I get a convertible runabout* for all the country roads...

    Granted price comparison was taken a few years ago - I've noticed the diesel and petrol prices getting a lot closer recently... but not noticed diesel below 140ppl for a few years now...

    Depreciation gap between my TFSI and an equivalent TDI (let alone BiTDI) will be higher than any depreciation gap in later years... granted the TFSI's were so unpopular taht they discontinued them, but that was mostly due to the company car tax bands, but hey, I might get lucky and find it holds it's value due to scarcity, especially with the low mileage mine will have!

    *was gonna be an E46 M3 or an M135Ci, but the missus has taken an interest, so likely to be an E46 320Ci with extra parking sensors... can't get her insured on anything more powerful than that :(
    #12
  14. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Aug 2, 2013]
    TBH - if I'd had £15k+ extra that was required to bring the second hand BiTDI's into my price band (the cheapest I ever saw one when I was looking was more than £15k more AND had higher mileage).... and IF I was using it to commute (doing 10k miles per year or more), then the BiTDI would have been the obvious choice... with the regular 245PS TDI as a 2nd option before I'd even consider the TFSI, but at low mileage, the petrols are really good value and more fun - it's still forced induction, so you still get the same torquey surge that's missing in the 4.2 V8's and makes TDi's feel fast...

    £15k savings at £1.35 still buys me >11,000 litres... 2440 gallons.... which even at 30mpg means I get the first 73000 miles (probably over 10 years for me!) with free fuel.... so it is a compromise, but for the middle and lower-mileage people out there, not a bad compromise ;)
    #13
  15. GeoffDunk
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    GeoffDunk Active Member

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    [Aug 16, 2013]

    Been reading through this thread as I am looking for a new car for the missus and she wants diesel etc but wnats it quick so the BiTDI would be a great choice.

    I work with a friend who just purchased one and I know they are really quick. In the real world my 2003 S4 is identical. standing start we pace each other exactly all the way to the speed limiters of which mine is removed so that when I pulled away. Its amazing how quick the BiTDI is and what it can return to the gallon and. As for the torque comment, the V8 is not lacking at all.

    p.s. The Mrs si chopping in a 35d X5 with 286bhp but thats 2.25 tonnes, although, for what it is it's still no slouch.
    #14
  16. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Sep 14, 2013]
    I'm off to test drive an a6 BiTDI today I have a deposit on. I'm coming from an audi A5 3TDI FWD and couldn't live with it. Apart from issues with A5, the steering was so light and unconnected and the torque steer sent the electrics into a spin and it under steered too much.

    any advice and look outs appreciated.
    #15
  17. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
    Ah, you may be disappointed with the steering: Audi tried to "firm it up" a bit, but just made it heavier most of the time: in all but comfort mode, it's got some decent weight to it, but it's still really disconnected.
    #16
  18. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
    Yup - the steering isn't connected / dynamic at all, but its nowhere near as bad as the A5, and certainly there is no FWD problems where you have to fight the front wheels under hard acceleration - its very composed under acceleration.

    I have the BiTDI with black edition set up and noise is noticeable, but overall suspension works hard to keep my front spoiler away from speed bumps and is more comfortable than the A5 which was only lowered 20mm, rather than the current 30mm on the A6.

    I have to say that the BWM 6 series was much more comfortable, but still the steering on that wasn't great either.
    #17
  19. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Nov 3, 2013]
    Joe - how r u going with the A6?

    I'd agree with the BMW's - normally feel more connected, with better steering feel (understandable given we're comparinf FWD/quattro with rear wheel drive) and their M-Sport suspensions tend to feel less harsh than the S-Line suspension, but I found the A6 S-Line on 18's a good compromise between looks and handling, plus the interiors of the Audi's are generations ahead of their equivalent BMW counterparts (my old B6 felt more modern and slick then my friend's E92!)... and on the driver dynamics, I'll get an old E46 M3 (probably convertible) as my less practical "fun car" for when I need to feel connected :)
    #18
  20. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Mar 29, 2014]
    After opting for the bitdi, and tried the petrol, I can't agree that the Tfsi is better in anyway other the price. It's not faster off the line either.

    I found the torque mid speed, from 50mph to be blistering in the diesel. The tfsi is amazing, but it's just not enough saving on price to justifying buying one. When you consider range, I can get to Scotland and back from London on a full tank.

    Just my thoughts, but if you do about 10,000 miles a year, you are better off financially in about 2-3 years with diesel, before you consider the much higher resale values of the diesel.
    #19
  21. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 29, 2014]
    I have bought an F10 535D now and it has 313 bhp & 630nm and does 50mpg and it is a real flying machine, It has adaptive drive a costing option of £2700 and drives like a dream.
    F10 535D.jpg
    #20
  22. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Mar 29, 2014]
    rear wheel only though? or X drive option?
    #21
  23. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Mar 29, 2014]
    big fan of BMW seats and steering, but someone needs to explain big cars in white paint :O
    #22
  24. NewburyA3Q
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    NewburyA3Q New Member

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    [Mar 30, 2014]
    White is the new black, apparently.

    Ive always bought big cars in Silver!
    #23
  25. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 30, 2014]
    RWD 5 series not available in X-Drive in the UK. YET..
    The 3 series is though. I have a set of winter tyres & wheels for it anyway.
    #24
  26. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Mar 30, 2014]
    Can I ask what kind of discount you got on the bim?
    #25
  27. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Mar 30, 2014]
    #26
  28. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 31, 2014]
    It was an ex Bmw Uk it is an August 2013 with 9000 miles. It was £40000 and a month later they dropped it down to £38300 and they let me have it for £38000 and gave me a good part ex price for the A5 Convertible so it worked out very good. The car is fully loaded though new it was £60,000.
    #27
  29. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Mar 31, 2014]
    WOW - that's incredible. I would have gone for white at that price. That's cracking deal. How does it drive under hardest acceleration under power with RWD?
    #28
  30. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 31, 2014]
    I thought there would be much more wheelspin then there actually is tbh. But i have winter tyres on at the moment. I did give it a kick down from about 10 mph yesterday and the traction light was flashing for a little bit but other than that it isnt too bad. But the power is outrageous ! But it into Sport + and over into sports and it revs high and it just lurches forward when you put your foot down and you are up to triple figures in no time. I am keeping the winters on for a little bit longer because i am thinking of taking the 19" summers to be powered coated in black for £240.
    I did drive an A6 Bi-Turbo but i found that this Bmw was far better to drive so i went for the Bmw instead. They are pretty similar cars aswell both 3.0 Diesel 313 bhp 8 Speed Auto's.
    #29
  31. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Mar 31, 2014]
    I had the recent 6 series with same engine and every time i accelerated out of junction, round about of corner, the rear end spun out. It was easy to control, but I couldn't live with it and decided then that I needed AWD. The steering sucks on the A6 though.
    #30
  32. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 31, 2014]
    What tyres were you running ? Or it could be a problem with the car because mine doesn't do this with the summers or winters on.
    #31
  33. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Mar 31, 2014]
    The sport mode on the 6 series disengages more of the traction control (not sure in relation to 5 series), and this is the side effect. Some love the slide, but it wasn't for me. I loved the car, bloody luxurious and rapid with better steering than A6, but it got annoying as I like to accelerate faster.

    That said - the tyres were abused previous to my ownership which made the issue more prominent. Basically, the rear tyres were cupped from the sliding and even though the tyres had tread in the middle - the edges were pretty flat. The car lasted about a month and got a great offer on a six month old A6 fully loaded - except hifi - which is on another post.
    #32
  34. Audi Dynamik
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    Audi Dynamik Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 31, 2014]
    In Sport Mode for me the traction is still on but when you put it into Sport + it turns the traction off and you an also knock the gearbox over into sport and then you can put it into manual mode and use the paddles.
    The rear summers have done about 9000 miles and the tread is still okay, they aren't fully worn but they don't look new.
    #33
  35. ScottishS3
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    ScottishS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 4, 2014]
    You got a bargain there mate!
    #34
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  36. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Apr 10, 2014]
    It was the instant response of the TFSI that makes it more fun and the potential of the TFSI that swung the balance for me.

    With <£2000 to tweak and upgrade the cars, a BiTDI might see 375bhp and around 4.5sec 0-60mph maybe 400bhp if you start looking at injectors, etc which should be possible in that budget.... but the TFSI will see 425bhp with a few tweaks (incl pulley and remap) and 0-60mph in <4.0sec: based that most of upgrades translate directly across to the mechanically similar S5 and for <£1600 in upgrades, the S5's are getting around 450bhp and 0-60mph in 3.7sec.

    If initial budget was of no concern and fuel economy was a factor at all, I'm sure the BiTDI would have won hands down.

    For now 310PS is enough and if I wanted more power, the 3PS extra of the BiTDI wouldn't really sway it for me ;)
    #35
  37. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Apr 10, 2014]
    You're looking at the wrong numbers - it's the torque that explains why the cars are different performance wise - not the horsepower. But most importantly, the only thing that really separates them is the fuel consumption at the performance - it is a technical achievement that deserves credit. It was also the fastest Diesel production car in the world when it came out (BMW have now outdone them and even now do triple turbo's).

    I wouldn't buy one for sporty only driving, it's just not very good at that. It also makes more sense as an Estate. As it is, I, like many others that will buy the BiTDI or TFSI A6, will do so based upon the discounted price.
    #36
  38. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Apr 10, 2014]
    You're looking at the wrong numbers - it's the torque that explains why the cars are different performance wise - not the horsepower. But most importantly, the only thing that really separates them is the fuel consumption at the performance - it is a technical achievement that deserves credit. It was also the fastest Diesel production car in the world when it came out (BMW have now outdone them and even now do triple turbo's).

    I wouldn't buy one for sporty only driving, it's just not very good at that. It also makes more sense as an Estate. As it is, I, like many others that will buy the BiTDI or TFSI A6, will do so based upon the discounted price.
    #37
  39. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Apr 16, 2014]
    I'm definitely not looking at the wrong numbers, the mistake would be making that decision based purely on numbers and outadated "petrol vs TDI performance" arguments from 10 years ago: I was using the numbers to try to quantify the shape and scale of the torque and power curves.

    If the "performance wise" you're talking about is the accelleration, then there is a fundamental fact that accelleration (assuming similar traction and weights) would be based on power, not torque. Power is just a factor of torque x revs, but the power is the overiding part of that equation and even more importantly average power, NOT peak power... my old V6 TDI had more torque than a B7 RS4... but I knew which was faster ;) That said, the 3.0TDI vs 3.2 petrol with similar peak power, the TDI was faster - 10+ years ago I was pushing the "TDI is best" side of the debate, but the game has changed...

    What I think you're trying to grasp at is the old argument about the shape of torque curves and it has already been debated and analysed AT LENGTH with the old Mk4 generation Golf GTI, where the car was conveniently available in 4 engines over the course of it's lifecycle: 115bhp 2.0i, 140bhp 1.8i, 150bhp 1.8T and 150bhp 1.9TDI... in this case the peaky 1.8 N/A was noticably slower than even the 2.0i as it only generated the peak power for a really narrow part of the rev range. This is the argument that I was having with people about TDI vs petrol from 2000 onwards - for most, the TDI's were hands-down the better cars, but this argument has gone full circle as a lot of petrol cars are turbo/super/"twin"-charged. The TDI's still win on economy, but NOT performance: even highly tuned with two turbo chargers, they struggle against a detuned, supercharged petrol and even with just a basic remap on each, you won't unock much more on the BiTDI, but you will get rid of the dutuning on the TFSI (to protect the S5 and S6) and then the TFSI thrashes the BiTDI.

    In the old TDI vs petrol performance debate, TDI won a lot of the time because it was actually a N/A vs forced induction debate and the "area under the curve" is greater in forced induction engines the same peak power. So this effectively means that at any point when accelerating through the required rev range for each gear, you are more likely to be at a higher power level, in the case of turbo-charged engines this assumes you are already accelerating hard and have the boost pressure ready or are willing to wait for it to spool up... the rest of that sensation of speed in a turbo-charged car is down to just that: the sensation of the turbo spooling up more and generating that elastic band feeling, which is even more pronounced in a diesel based car (or old petrol, the older the better!).

    Granted that modern day turbo's don't have the turbo lag of old, so the time to wait is imperceptable to most drivers and the BiTDI does a great job of masking that lag even further. Add to that, when it is accellerating hard through the gears (i.e. on boost the whole time) it is fractionally quicker than a stock TFSI, so the numbers flatter the BiTDI even further. Plus because it can generate that power at lower revs, it returns signifcantly better economy, even when driven fairly hard.... it's a phenomenal, fast, frugal car, but the numbers don't tell the full story.

    In the A6, the TFSI is not a turbo, it is a supercharger so always on boost and always has near-instant response... plus it has more torque than my old V6 TDI, the only real "criticism" of that engine is that it generates the power so instantly, that you don't realise how fast it is - there's no TDI-style slingshot.

    A long essay, I know... but I thought I'd save us both a bit of time and put forward both sides of the argument from 10 years ago and also present-day: the debate has evolved and people's thinking needs to evolve too.

    If they were the same price and if I did well over 10k miles (the sums normally add up around 15k), the BiTDI would make sense, especially if I never wanted to get it tuned up at a later date... as a pre-reg car there was already a huge price difference and as of mid-April 2014, I've only done 5500 miles in my 12-plate TFSI... I'll take the extra potential and fun as I'm effectively driving on "free" petrol for another 6-8 years based on the extra I would have spent for a pre-reg BiTDI with the same spec.
    #38
  40. woollyjoe
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    woollyjoe Member

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    [Apr 16, 2014]
    Sorry Bahn, not sure you've understood my point. I'm not arguing numbers, only that you are looking at the wrong numbers when your refer to Ps. I'm stating why one car is faster than the other - are we talking about the same cars?

    The BiTDI is faster at all speed checks from 30mph and every interval thereof, than the the TFSI. I've not used any 1980"s arguments and offered real world results - see my earlier link. You use descriptive words related to your feelings about the car - "slingshot".

    You can't argue the TFSI is faster at any level or between speeds as a fact. It is highly subjective to say one is better than the other given the running and ownership costs. There is an argument to say TFSI costs less new, but the BiTDI has higher residuals. My opinion is that you don't buy this car for the "sporty" nature because it's not, but it is impressive what Audi (and now BMW) has done with diesel technology.

    What gearbox is on the TFSI - audi don't sell the 3.0 quattro TFSI in UK
    #39
  41. BahnStormer77
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    BahnStormer77 BahnStormer

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    [Apr 17, 2014]
    The BiTDI is marginally faster WHEN it is on boost, but the real world responsiveness negates most of that that - from the time you push your foot down at any one speed, the TFSI is faster at getting up to another speed.... but the BiTDI will beat it if it is accelerating hard through the gears. I drove them a week apart, but as impressive as the BiTDI was, I was grinning like crazy after the TFSI, it's not sporty, but it is more fun.

    Mine is a UK (not import) spec TFSI, they are all DSG.

    They stopped selling the TFSI in the UK to protect the S6 and because most UK buyers are either company car buyers or enthusiasts who could afford an S6 - I'm guessing they thought that the enthusiasts would just buy the TFSI and tweak it up to S6 or faster performance.
    #40

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