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A3 TDI 2005 juddering at idle

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Squarebush, Feb 19, 2012.

  1. Orts
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    Orts Member

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    Lion Garage, do you know anyone around the manchester area that you could recommend that could update the software and check the injector timing?
    #41
  2. Lion Garage
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    Lion Garage New Member

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    A very good friend of mine works at General motor company in Stockport. They are a very good VAG specialist. He's a really good guy and I dont think theres anyone who knows more about the VAG brands than Jon. They are well equiped and able to deal with anything VAG related.

    Link to their web site Get Directions to Cooke Street, Hazel Grove, SK7 4EG

    Theres Mike at Autosparks, Another good friend/guy who only does diagnostic work but has the kit needed for any VAG ECU updates/programing etc

    Link to his site uk autospark

    HTH
    Steve.
    #42
  3. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Gutted.
    I've correct my torsion value so it is now 0.5 (new cambelt so I'm expecting it to retard slightly over the next year to get bang on 0.
    Anyway, it's still quite juddery :(
    It's fine on idle... But if you keep it at about 1200rpm it judders. Also noticeable in 5th or 6th if you let off slightly from 3000rpm > 2400rpm.

    Looks like I'm out of options now. I'm just going to have to live with it.
    #43
  4. tdi-man
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    tdi-man Well-Known Member

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    timings not correct will cause a judder on idle plus many other things because if you have had your cam belt changed and the timings out this will also put
    the injector timing out and all will need to be set up again .

    i talk from experiance as ive had this done
    #44
  5. tdi-man
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    tdi-man Well-Known Member

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    i would say injector timing is fine think its -2.50 you have a probelm.

    but if you alter timing realy injectors should be checked and adjusted if needed

    #45
  6. tdi-man
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    tdi-man Well-Known Member

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    this is for a 8v head ? not a 16v head ?



    #46
  7. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    When I did mine today - (2.0 TDI DOHC) I adjusted the pulley/sprocket that is furthest forward.
    According to Seeking advice on 2.0TDI (BKD engine) cambelt and tensioner change - uk-audis :

    "I've got the 16v BKD engine so did a lot of web browsing to confirm why it was only the exhaust cam (the one nearest the front / radiator) that needed to be changed - this drives the injectors; the inlet cam drives the tandem pump."

    So my timing is now looking good at 0.5.
    Injector variation is all within 0.0 > 0.5 so that is finer as well.

    But I STILL have the judder at certain revs.

    Any other pointers would be massively appreciated :crying:
    #47
  8. tdi-man
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    tdi-man Well-Known Member

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    i had my timing done at a garage i went back cause i wasnt happy with vag com readings which says the front gog was out so they put it bang on for me by adjusting the front gog.
    i then went to where i got my map done and also found that that back cam was out so this was then redone correctly and my power was back and shacking on idle nearly gone only very slight on warm idle.

    i went to 3 places before i went to my mapper to sort it out 1 of them was a very big and well known company all said timing was fine which it wasnt .

    yes your front cam prob is bang on but is your back cam this has to be done manualy
    #48
  9. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Thanks guys!
    Can you point me to a tech article that describes the adjustment of the back cam and what reading I should be looking for in VCDS?
    Surely if you adjust one cam then you're going to put the torsion for the other out.... So how to know when they're both in the right place?
    #49
  10. tdi-man
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    tdi-man Well-Known Member

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    what i know is that the front cam you can set in vag com when my guy done mine he set front cam then using a little camera set flywheel to tdc then then set the rear cam and put pins in the cams to make sure in correct place and tighten it all back up then set injectors make up. job done
    #50
  11. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Ok thanks for the reply.

    Well when I started my car this morning there was severe juddering for about 5 secs. Then it went back to normal (with the slight judder).

    Its the first time it has done that!

    So... I've just moved the rear cam by a couple of mm to match what I did on the front one yesterday. (I actually couldn't move it any more because the bolts were at the end of the oval slots).
    I guess I'll know if it's made any difference to the starting tomorrow morning when it's really cold again.

    Found this on another forum in case anyone else is interested:

    http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/273493.aspx?PageIndex=2

    Because the front cam toothed window is in the middle - and the rear one is at the edge - I'm wondering if the relationship between the 2 could be a problem.
    I'm reluctant to try adjust them any more now without being able to get it all into TDC without the proper timing kit / pins.
    #51
  12. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    Any luck with this, did it work?
    #52
  13. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Well I adjusted the exhaust cam by 2mm in the same direction I had adjusted the intake cam.
    It did bring the juddering down a little but but it's still quite noticeable.

    I would've liked to adjust it some more - but there was no more adjustment available. The bolts are as far as they can go in the oval holes.

    Strange... because the inlet cam's bolts are still more or less central in the oval holes.

    Shouldn't they be aligned about the same for both cams?
    #53
  14. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    By the way -
    My fuel consumption is good - roughly 47mpg combined.
    Fuelling at idle is 0.6l/h (which apparently gets changed when adjusting the exhaust cam).
    #54
  15. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    Quick update on mine below for some reason we couldn't find the torsion value (it showed steering angle instead?!), any ideas about the Ign. Timing? It doesnt look at all right compared to everyone elses...
    [​IMG]
    #55
  16. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Is that group 4?
    Have you tried going up and down through the different groups?
    #56
  17. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    Yep it group 4, I've heard that some older versions of VCDS don't display the correct labels on the display.
    #57
  18. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Apologies for the delay in getting an update posted on this. I recently had a problem with contaminated supermarket diesel (I kid you not) which took a bit of time to sort out.

    Anyway, just before that incident - I finally got the juddering fixed! :icon_thumright:

    I adjusted the intake cam to get the Torsion value to bang on 0.0kw.

    The relationship between the front & rear cams had an effect on the Engine Torque & Fuel Consumption figures which are adjusted by the rear cam.
    From what I've read - the ideal Fuel Consumption is around 0.6l/h & Engine Torque should be no less than 28 Nm.
    *This is what I found has the most profound effect on the juddering after adjusting the Torsion value with the front cam.*

    You can get away with a lower consumption on some engines - but for the BKD 0.6l/h seems to work best. Any less and you may get cold start problems and a bit of juddering - BUT - you will get improved MPG!

    Note: This figure only changes in 0.2l/h increments. So, you can move the rear cam by a few degrees which keeps it at 0.6l/h but it still shows the effect on the "Engine Torque".

    So, with the Torsion value at 0.0 kw and this:

    Group 015: Fuel Consumption
    819 /min Engine Speed (G28)
    30.0 Nm Engine Torque
    0.6 l/h Fuel Consumption
    0.0 Nm Torque Request (Driver)

    ... I was getting around 48 - 50MPG and a massive improvement in the juddering :)

    However, I had read on another forum that some people have found that European engines seem to prefer negative torsion values.
    So, as a last attempt to eliminate the juddering altogether - I dropped torsion down to -1.5. And the juddering was totally GONE!

    Now there is some info out there about a lower torsion affecting the torque curve as well as the MPG. To be honest I didn't get to prove this really because it was only a couple of days later before my car got poisoned .
    However, part of the troubleshooting involved setting everything back to TDC which meant my timing is now:

    Torsion: 0.0 kw
    Group 015: Fuel Consumption
    819 /min Engine Speed (G28)
    28.0 Nm Engine Torque
    0.4 l/h Fuel Consumption (it actually flicks between 0.4 to 0.6 l/h)
    0.0 Nm Torque Request (Driver)

    I have a lot of juddering now so I suspect I will have cold start problems when we get into winter here... but my MPG is great! I managed to get 60MPG a couple of days ago (driving like a granny at 70 in cruise for 75% of the journey) - but it was pretty good.
    So, it seems a bit of a trade off. If I increase the Engine Torque & Consumption by a tiny bit more (rear cam > clockwise by a mm or 2) to get the previous figures of a steady 30 Nm & 0.6 l/h - I suspect my MPG will go down by about 4 or 5MPG. I think I'm going to have to do it though because the juddering is pretty annoying when idling.

    Also, should mention that all adjustments should be done when car is at full temp. Also, measurements should be taken with all power consumers & air con off.

    Sorry about the long post - just wanted to be thorough so hopefully someone else finds this useful!
    #58
  19. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    I've been doing a lot of research into this myself (although I have a BMN 2.0PD engine) & its amazing how much 'play' in the torsion value there is even when using the VAG tools to lock the pulleys. I proved this point to my Audi dealer by showing him my VCDS readings (which were out) & then standing there while they fitted all of the equipment they use to do the belt change, which in their eyes shows it was all ok. I then adjusted the pulleys in one direction with the kit still 'locked', removed it all & then took a new reading, we then re-fitted the locking kit & adjusted in the opposite direction. The overall ajustment with the pulley locking kit fitted is approx 5 degrees from + to -, not exactly a small amount. The kicker in all this is that VAG have no way of measuring the torsion value, they use they locking kit as the indication that everything is still in the correct position!

    my advice is if that if you're having your timing belt done, find someone with VCDS that will check the value for you after it's done & adjust where required as it makes a world of difference!

    BTW - BKD engine should be set at approx -0.05 degrees, but as with all things, if you tweak it & it works for you, fair play. The other way to rid yourself of the rough idle is to get the torsion right & then drop the idle speed by around 10-30rpm, it makes it smooth as silk ;)
    #59
  20. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Good advice!
    Why did you end up proving it to your Audi stealership? I hope they're going to give you discount next time you need work done. They're supposed to be trained up on this stuff!

    Just curious - where did you hear that BKD should be 0.5 degrees? (I'm assuming you mean 0.5 and not 0.05?)
    #60
  21. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    After the last 2 months of issues I've literally had to prove all the faults I've had since my injection swap, which lead me to buy VCDS and use all of its info to build my various cases... So far it's resulted in me having the injectors replaced twice, a complete new top end fitted & next week it goes back in for a new turbo & possibly DPF too all paid for by Audi UK! Luckily I've got a background in mechanical engineering otherwise I would have been mugged off without having a clue by the original dealership all that time ago.

    Since all my issues I logged an official complaint with Audi UK who directed me to another dealership to deal with & so far they've been bloody stellar! After presenting them with all the info I'd logged from the car they were genuinely interested in what I'd given them, how it had been diagnosed & how I thought it should be rectified. The torsion value adjustment came up as one of my suggestions after the car was running lumpy at idle, every person I'd spoken to at Audi whether they be at dealership level, technical level, or head office level were clueless about it, so I had to prove a point as to how inaccurate their cambelt replacement tools were in getting things spot on... The Master-tech at the latest dealership has now requested that they order VCDS to use an additional tool for their servicing ;)

    I'd love to be able to tell you exactly where I got the BKD torsion readings from but the laptop that I had all that technical info stored on died the other day & I'm still trying to recover all the data off it, I only remembered them as they were only slightly different from the BMN engine (0.0 degrees) - the BKD should ideally be between 0 & -0.5 degrees as apparently they can run slightly better when retarded from 0 TDC.
    #61
  22. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Sounds like quite a journey! At least you've found a decent dealership that's willing to listen to customers and not treat them like mugs ;)
    #62
  23. martinivw
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    martinivw :)

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    Epic Thread!!!!!!
    this is what caused me to join this forum 4 years ago!!!
    and after ALOT of messing with my local Audi centre I eventually got a tech who told me ,
    The exhaust cam adjustment for bkd's used to be in the Audi manual but for some strange reason this repair was REMOVED,
    Luckily my tech had noted the repair and adjusted the exhaust cam anyway ;) which cured the problem,
    My cambelt was changed however by an independent around 18 months later and I noticed the lumpy idle had returned, unfortunately everyone who has been in my car since cambelt change thinks I'm imagining it !!!!!,
    Next cambelt shall be done by Audi and I shall be taking a printout of this thread along with me :):):)
    #63
  24. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    Agreed! This whole forum is fantastic!
    I've managed to get the juddering fixed, had cruise & mfsw retrofitted and not to mention the hours I've spent just reading / learning about all sorts of nonsense along the way! ;)

    Anyway, I've made my final tweaks to the cam timings and this is how it all looks:

    [​IMG]

    -0.5 kw torsion as per max69vk's recommendation - thanks!

    Got the Fuel Consumption & Torque at the absolute minimum without any noticeable judder at idle (although it might struggle to start in winter... but we'll see).

    I'm chuffed... finally going to be able to enjoy the car 100%!
    #64
  25. Rake
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    Rake New Member

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    Very interesting thread.

    As a new A3 owner with the judder I am checking that all my parameters are within spec and they do seem to tally with those who have posted on here which has resulted in the elimination of the judder.

    Even though my reading fall inline with those here the judder is still present and as yet I have no explanation for it.

    DMF and clutch replaced already - I don't believe it is related in any case.

    The only thing I noticed is that the idle will fluctuate between 819 and 840 rpm.

    Attached Files:

    #65
  26. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    I'll check mine over the weekend if I get time as I want to do some other VCDS logging.

    Do you notice a different if you turn on your lights, radio, or anything else? Obviously this will add more load to the alternator and will effect the revs slightly. Try turning off the blowers/AC, lights (interior and exterior), radio, and see if there's any change.
    #66
  27. Rake
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    Rake New Member

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    Not tried the electrical loading idea but cannot see how it is related.

    Does yours have the judder issue ?

    I am now thinking injector loom.
    #67
  28. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    I think the juddering that's been described here is normal. I was only suggesting the electrical loading as that tends to make the revs fluctuate. I don't think it's a problem so I don't really worry about it. Car runs fine with no error codes so I just accept it as being part of a diesel.
    #68
  29. Rake
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    Rake New Member

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    Its a fair comment but the judder is present for sure and as for it being part of a Diesel, I accept your comment but reserve judgement for the time being as both a Diesel injection specialist and a diesel driver, I have only ever experienced this on this engine.

    I can live with it if there is no easy fix but it is mildly irritating.

    I'll run a shock treatment of Diesel Rhino through it and see if it makes any difference - doubtful for this problem but worth a try.
    #69
  30. tdicustom
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    tdicustom New Member

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    I have just changed the clutch pulley on my alternator. My engine was idling from around 800 to 1100 rpms. The ecu detects a drop in valuable and counters this by raising the engine speed to create load. Once the ecu realises the load level has been reached it will drop the revs back down only to pick them straight back up again.
    #70
    Westy likes this.
  31. dancupra225
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    dancupra225 Member

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    And the clutch pulley what they like to change or cost any idea
    #71
  32. tdicustom
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    tdicustom New Member

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    All in total it cost me £65 and that's for me buying the clutch pulley and having a garage to fit it. You need a special tool to unlock the pulley once you have taken off the alternator and depending on how long it has been going on for it can be a real pain to get off. It is way easier to pay a garage to do it rather then have the headache and wrapped knuckles doing it.... trust me it happens lol.

    After having mine replaced my car is running like a dream...It seems like a different car since I'm no longer getting bounced around in traffic or at lights.
    #72
  33. dancupra225
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    dancupra225 Member

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    Was it a new pulley or a clutch pulley as dark side website do them for 56.40 in total
    #73
  34. tdicustom
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    tdicustom New Member

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    Clutch pulley mate, I would go to your local motor discount store and get a price first, I only paid £22.00 Inc vat for mine so dark side seem a little steep to be honest. I would recommend their egr delete as that does wonders :drool:
    #74
  35. dancupra225
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    dancupra225 Member

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    Yeah already done this on mine got forge boost pipes coming this week as well need the clutch and flywheel doing so get it done same time
    #75
  36. tdicustom
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    tdicustom New Member

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    Well touch wood that clutch pulley fixes the rough idle mate, I have seen loads of people talk about injector wiring, dmfl or clutch issues and even tortional values however any one of these would cause the car to run lumpy all of the time. If it's the clutch pulley, the issue will only be at idle or after giving your car the boot due to the excessive charge being taken from the battery without the correct amount of charge being placed back by the alternator.
    #76
  37. mhayat
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    mhayat New Member

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    i have a audi b7s line 2.0 tdi 170 , my torsion was 6.0 ,is that bad? , i get juddering and white smoke in the morning then seems to settle down.
    #77

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