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A3 TDI 2005 juddering at idle

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Squarebush, Feb 19, 2012.

  1. Squarebush
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    Squarebush New Member

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    [Feb 19, 2012]
    Hi guys, i have an a3 2.0 tdi 2005 with 133k miles on the clock. Ive been gettin a heavy judder when idling, usually takes for the car to get going before it goes away. Clutch and flywheel was changed last month also fan belt tensioner and new belt changed 2 days ago. Diagnostic showed air flow sensor but then it never showed back up on the 2nd diagnostic. Any help would be appreciated.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2012
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  3. M88UES
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    M88UES Theres Never Enough Power

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    [Feb 19, 2012]
    i have same problem mate, funny thing is a didnt have it until i got my cambelt changed by audi. Not saying it has been done wrong but its a little bit suspicious how a few people have mentioned this now. It has to be something theyve done as i didnt have it before it went in?
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  4. Ash187
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    Ash187 Audi-Retrofits.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 19, 2012]
    mine does this but it turned out its the engine mounts on mine... have a look under the car in the dog bone mount and look for cracks in the rubber
    #3
  5. Squarebush
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    Squarebush New Member

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    [Feb 20, 2012]
    i did have a slight judder before the belt and tensioner got changed but nothing compared to what its like now. strange. thanks for your reply.
    #4
  6. Squarebush
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    Squarebush New Member

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    [Feb 20, 2012]
    ill have a look at that thanks mate.
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  7. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2012]
    check the injector smooth idle comparisons on the diagnostics. post it up.
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  8. Squarebush
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    Squarebush New Member

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    [Feb 21, 2012]
    ill try that aswell when i get home im offshore just now. cheers for that.
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  9. AidenUK
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    AidenUK Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 21, 2012]
    If it was fine before the cambelt change then i'd suspect the time is a cock hair out.
    #8
  10. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    [Feb 21, 2012]
    Does yours do it when cold as well?

    Mine (55 2.0 TDI 140 55k miles) does it only when properly warmed up.
    Haven't done cambelt yet.
    Have just switched it from longlife servicing to fixed using 5w40.

    There are a couple of threads on this issue actually.

    I'm currently running non-supermarket premium diesel through + some extra injector cleaner thorugh for a few tanks.... haven't noticed a difference yet :(
    However, someone else on here was having the same problem and he fixed it by running Liqui Moly Diesel Purge directly into your fuel line (neater application).
    He said he did this occasionally for a couple of months and it eventually fixed the problem!

    Here's a clip on how it's done:
    How to use diesel purge VW TDI engine (Audi TDI similar) - YouTube

    I'll be doing it this weekend if the fuel hose, filter & connectors that I've ordered on the old fleebay get here in time.
    I'll let you know how it goes...
    #9
  11. M88UES
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    M88UES Theres Never Enough Power

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    [Feb 21, 2012]
    forgot to add i got my injector recall done at same time as my cambelt done , so it could be either the new injectors or the cambelt timing .
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  12. Squarebush
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    Squarebush New Member

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    [Feb 21, 2012]
    i had the timing belt done last year i'll take it back round to the garage and see what they say. cheers.
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  13. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    [Feb 21, 2012]
    Does it judder when cold as well ?
    I'd be interested to know :)
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  14. Squarebush
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    Squarebush New Member

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    [Feb 22, 2012]
    its only been juddering when it is cold, even when i rev it to around 2000 and keep it there i can still her it coughing then after around 5 mins when it has warmed up its totallt sound, runs great, i did also change the fuel temp sensor last week, that did show up on the diagnostics but had it checked and it was fine. doing my head in
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  15. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    [Feb 22, 2012]
    Sounds like a different problem to mine then...
    Good luck in sorting it ;)
    #14
  16. A3-8PA
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    [Feb 22, 2012]
    I am in similar sort of situation. Got Audi a3 1.9 tide 2008 - done 34k, only judders when it gets warm. I only do few miles a day. It was much noticed in summer but in winter it judders after 15-20 minutes of drive.

    Went to Audi and independent garage, nothing came out. Tried injector cleaner few times but problem is still there. I was not expecting this sort of behaviour from Audi.

    Another problem - when I lightly rest my foot on clutch, I can feel lot of vibration from the clutch. According to Audi it is normal and in new cars as well. I came to know when I test drove brand new Audi A3.

    Going back, has anybody fixed this vibrations problem. Please share here....
    #15
  17. Lion Garage
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    Lion Garage New Member

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    [Feb 24, 2012]
    There are many things that could cause this judder, but there is a software update for many of the 2.0 PD's that are running unevenly/shaking at idle, I think its many due to an EGR flutter and the update reduces EGR at idle. We have done quite a lot of them and its very successful. It may be worth getting the software checked, even if its not the issue with your car its always a good idea to get updated to the latest version.



    Hope this helps.
    Steve.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
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  18. M88UES
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    M88UES Theres Never Enough Power

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    [Feb 24, 2012]
    Ive got smelly white smoke at times out the back of mine so i need to get the EGR Valvle checked too.
    #17
  19. Ash187
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    Ash187 Audi-Retrofits.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 24, 2012]
    how would i be able to find out if i need this software update? Audi are always trying to deny things like recalls, and i wouldnt know what to ask for :think:
    is there a specific software code or version to request?
    thanks
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  20. Squarebush
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    Squarebush New Member

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    [Feb 25, 2012]
    That sounds like a good idea but what are PD's and is it only audi that does this update and how much will this cost? i got the car about 3 years ago and the first job i did was replace the EGR, i'll take it off when i get home and see if that needs a clean. cheers.
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  21. Lion Garage
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    Lion Garage New Member

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    [Feb 25, 2012]
    Sorry guys, PD's are Pumpe duse, The later generation of 1.9 and pre common rail 2.0 TDi's with unit injectors.


    Software updates apply to all the VAG marques, we seem to see more Audi's with rough running complaints than the others tho, Not really sure why that should be, possibly the owners are a little more in tune with their car??

    The software updates are usually released by the manufacturer to rectify faults that were not picked up or foreseen in pre release testing. There are lots of updates right across the range of VAG and every other manufacturer on the road.

    Common VAG issues with software fix's I see regularly are FSi's with NOx sensor issues, 1.6 16v petrols with spurious cam sensor faults codes for bank 2 (which they don’t even have). and recently there’s a software fix for the common rails with turbo issues. Just a few examples. Fords, Renaults, Peugeots, BMW's, Mercs, Range rovers etc etc all have exactly the same issues and need similar fix’s.


    We always check cars we service regularly for software up dates and do them as part of the service so many of our customers never even know the update has been done and that a possible future issue has been avoided.

    The trouble with getting them done is, most workshops (in my experience) see anything electronic or ECU related as a dark art and go out of their way to avoid it. So, they do not equip themselves with the equipment, knowledge and training needed to look after modern cars properly.

    You need to look for a VAG specialist running Autologic or VAS with a subscription to software updates. Either of these will be able to help you out with software (and for that matter anything else VAG including key coding etc etc).

    I know quite a few good VAG independents around the country. If you post a rough area I will try and direct you somewhere if I can.

    Hope this helps.
    Steve.
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  22. A32.0TDI
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    A32.0TDI New Member

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    [Feb 25, 2012]
    I have a very bad juddering issue aswell. Mine is a 2.0TDI DSG

    It starts when the car is warm and at idle but only in P and N. In R and D its fine. I have had the flywheel replaced but still the same.

    Any ideas?
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  23. A3-8PA
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    A3-8PA Member

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    [Feb 25, 2012]
    hi steve,

    I live in midlands.... Need bit more info like how much it will cost and any garage near to my place to get it checked....
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  24. Lion Garage
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    Lion Garage New Member

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Midlands, Nothing off the top of my head. Will get back to you ASAP.

    Steve.
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  25. L05T
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    L05T Member

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    I had this problem with my old A3 and also the once I just bought. However the juddering on mine has been very small and It never affected the ride or gave me any problems on my old car
    #24
  26. A32.0TDI
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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    I checked the injector smooth idle comparisons:
    Inj 1: -2.00
    Inj 2: -3.00
    Inj 3: -0.5
    inj 4: 1.00

    Spec is -2.8 to 2.8. Does this mean injector 2 is faulty?
    The wierd thing is, even when the juddering is not happening, inj 2 is still showing -3.00 and the juddering will only happen after 10 mins of running/idleing/driving (car gets warmer). Its fine when cold and in reverse or drive in DSG box.
    Car drives great, no lack of power etc

    I have called Audi and they state no injector recall/campaign is due on my car!

    Had flywheel replaced recently.

    Bloody car.
    #25
  27. Lion Garage
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    Lion Garage New Member

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    Hi Guys.

    Just to let you know I have not forgotten this. I just cant think of anyone in that midlands with the equipment to do the job and a quality of service I would put my mname/recomendation to.

    If I come up with anything I'll let you know.

    Steve.
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  28. Lion Garage
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    Lion Garage New Member

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    Those figures are smooth running or cylinder balance adaptions. The ECU monitors Crank shaft speed via the crank angle sensor. If it see's any variation in crank shaft speed through its cycle of all 4 cylinders firing (720 degrees/2 rotations) it will identify which cylinders are working harder and which are lazy. The ECU will then trim the fuel delivery to each cylinder to equalize them and smooth the rotation of the crank. The figures you have are the amount of trim neded to get the crankshaft rotating at a smooth speed. The figure are relative to each other but give no indication of require fuel. So in theory you could have 4 equally faulty injectors showing the same figures.


    There are many other variables that will affect those figures, A low compression on one cylinder will cause a lazy cylinder and therfore the ECU will compensate by adding extra fuel which will be reflected in those figure.


    A poor injector washer allowing air into the diesel rail in the head can sometimes cause a problem localised to one cylinder which will also have the same result.


    EGR flutter can effect cylinders differently, the ECU will try and smooth this by trimming each injector and therfore getting poor cylinder ballance figures.

    So, to answer the question, No, it doesn't mean that injector 2 is faulty, It means theres an excessive variation accross the cylinders. It could very well be the injector, it could also be lots of other things.

    When the car has run at idle for a while and EGR has switched off (also need to check its sealing correctly) do they settle down. Are the compressions good and equal, is the fuel supply good and air free (MVB 23 can be a good indication of fuel supply) is cam/crank sync correct (MVB 04) Cam and follower condition OK, Initial setting of injectors OK, Check for injector washers allowing combustion gas into fuel rail (Clear pipe in return and look for bubbles is a good indication), partial blockage of manifold due to excessive EGR etc etc.


    Hope this helps.
    Steve.
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  29. Ash187
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    Ash187 Audi-Retrofits.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    do you know of a decent garage around london area that could do a software update check for me? also how much would an update cost roughly?

    thanks
    #28
  30. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    Well I ran Liqui Moly Diesel Purge straight into the fuel hose and it hasn't made a difference.
    In fact, I've now noticed it judders if I gently take it up to 1200 rpm (although it was probably doing that before as well).
    It is ruining my enjoyment of the car a little...
    #29
  31. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    lion garage guy knows his onions here. kudos!

    + or - 3.00 is the maximum the ecu can adjust to smooth it out.....
    so youve definatly got something going on with no.2 there. id get the compressions checked if they all come back as equal across all cylinders id replace the no.2 injector or swap it round with no.3 (to see if the "out" comparison reading moves with the injector) and go from there.

    however if on the compression test results 1, 3 + 4 are around 340-360psi and no.2 is say 280psi then its an engine fault loosing compresion on no.2 and chances are the injector is fine.
    #30
  32. M88UES
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    M88UES Theres Never Enough Power

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    [Mar 9, 2012]
    just to add my cars currently in audi (smelly white smoke and very strong juddery idle cold/hot) and they apparently cant see anything wrong :S which i dont understand. It only started happening after i had the injector recall and as far as i know they have checked that today and then rang and asked if they could keep it until monday and try a few cold starts to see if theres something that pops up . So i have a courtesy car till then. but the fact there saying they cant see anything wrong baffles me. Honestly the idle juddering is tht strong someone who hasnt got a clue about cars would notice it. I recently asked an AA guy if he knew what the smoke was and as soon as i pulled up he said "thats not running right " after 3-4 sec of hearing it so you would expect Audi professional technicians to notice it. Is it me or are they hiding something from me? thoughts?

    Chris
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  33. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Mar 9, 2012]
    using any coolant?
    #32
  34. M88UES
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    M88UES Theres Never Enough Power

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    [Mar 10, 2012]
    Thats the thing, the coolant level and oil seems fine. Colour of oil etc all fine so not sure what that could indicate as the problem.
    #33
  35. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Mar 10, 2012]
    i would have thought audi can see theres something not right, but pin pointing what exactly is wrong is probably more tricky.
    if the injectors have just been fitted, id start by removing them again and checking theyre all seated correctly, stretch bolts ok and torqued down correctly, o rings all ok etc.
    #34
  36. M88UES
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    M88UES Theres Never Enough Power

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    [Mar 10, 2012]
    just seems a lil wierd to me that on the phone they said they cant see the problem but they want to cold start it on monday and were persuading me to keep the courtesy car until then throwing in no extra cost for the days etc. basically didnt want me to come back to collect it is what it felt like over the phone unless it was just me. a suppose if they had made a mistake when fitting the injectors a doubt they would be in any rush to tell me ! lol
    #35
  37. Old-Boy-Racer
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    Old-Boy-Racer Guest

    [Mar 10, 2012]
    Had same problem. Just bought my A3 and (Non Audi) dealer replaced cambelt as part of deal. Had injectors replaced by Audi last week. Helped the rough idle but did not cure it. Read around and focused on the need to fine tune the camshaft timing (torsion value) on PD TDI engines. See this info.

    How to adjust rough idle and camshaft timing on VW and Audi TDI pumpe duse engine

    Pic below shows the +/- 3 deg adjustment which needs to be done to the top pulley in conjunction with VCDS. My motor now runs so sweet I sometimes can't believe it's a diesel. The article on "Myturbodiesel" talks about having this timing done again about half way through the life of the cam belt when it will have stretched.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2012
    #36
  38. M88UES
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    M88UES Theres Never Enough Power

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    [Mar 10, 2012]
    Do you think i could get audi to just do this ? Or would they only do it by the book. Ive had rough idle since cambelt done but the injectors were done at the same time thats why there all struggling to find my problem. That and the fact i have stinking white smoke doesnt help either!
    #37
  39. Old-Boy-Racer
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    Old-Boy-Racer Guest

    [Mar 11, 2012]
    They might want to go through checking for faults first, but if you specifically ask just to have this done they should do it. You are the customer! It was three hours labour so getting an Independent with VCDS software might be a better route.
    #38
  40. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    So with the kind help of Westy (fellow ASN member) we've determined that my camshaft timing needs fine tuning:

    [​IMG]

    We also noticed that my injector variation is (slightly) out:

    [​IMG]

    Do you guys think there's a chance the injector readings might improve once the timing is tuned?
    (I'm hoping to get round to doing it in the next week or 2)

    I've used How to adjust rough idle and camshaft timing on VW and Audi TDI pumpe duse engine as guidance btw.
    #39
  41. max69vk
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    max69vk Active Member

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    [Apr 19, 2012]
    Sounds very familiar, had the same issue after my injector recall so I took it back to the dealer they tried to tell me it was because the car was 'mid way through a regen' which I knew was utter balls as it's never been like that before. So armed with the letter below I told them to go through everything & check it again.

    When I picked it the car up they insisted they had checked everything & nothing had been adjusted (rubbish) it drove 100x better with no noises, rough idling or juddering...

    Car running perfectly 16/04/12, 8.30am, taken to Audi Epsom (Drift Bridge) for recall on potential Siemens injector & wiring loom fault.

    Parts replaced:


    Injector units x 4
    Injector loom? – Not listed on service invoice
    Injector seals? – Not listed on service invoice

    Since collecting the car 16/04/12 15.30pm car has not been running correctly & sounds like a tractor.

    Symptoms:

    Rough idle compared to before – Much more engine movement, very reminiscent of an old 3 cylinder PD TDI I used to own.

    Excessive ‘diesel knock’ – Engine was practically silent before.

    Extremely loud on idle compared to previously (excessive top end rattle).

    Engine ‘pulsing’ on idle can be heard from exhaust as if engine revs going up & down although nothing is showing on rev counter. Sounds like one of the cylinders is not combusting correctly

    Major noise/vibration at 1200-1500 rpm (shakes the car).

    Engine is now sounding very ‘agricultural’ with the top end rattling throughout the rev range regardless of whether the engine is hot or cold.

    Hot & Cold starting not as instant as before – could almost ‘flick’ the ignition & the engine would start, now needs to be turned over.

    Possible Faults:

    Injector cam rockers not adjusted properly.

    Injector cam rocker assembly not fully tightened.

    Injector timing not adjusted correctly in VCDS/VAG-COM.

    Injector seals not fitted correctly.

    Injector units not seated correctly.

    I'd take the car back or get someone with VCDS to check the injector timing as an ex master-tech I know even suggested checking it after every 30,000 miles due to the potential belt wear & stretch.
    #40

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