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A3 Quattro KO4 upgrade, its started

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by phil miller, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]

    what are your thoughts PT? Bad luck? Cracked valve? Fuel issue?
  2. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Bad times Phil, did you have any form of solonoid on to lock the WM off overnight? my guess is the IC has filled with water then , when giving it the beans its rushed in and hydro-locked no 2?
  3. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Well... for WMI to have had a chance to hydro lock then it would need to be setup wrong imo... even then I am not sure it would still do that... by setup wrong I mean spraying all the time or too early or maybe too large a nozzle... hydro lock would either bend the rod a bit and you would still have compression or it would throw the rod out the block...

    Have seen a few cars come through Bill's just running water with no issues before... thats not to say you haven't created a first of course and I am open to anything as we all know once you start modding cars all bets are off...

    Removing the head should reveal all sadly (got a bore camera?)...

    Feel for you mate...

    <tuffty/>
  4. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    I've gotta check thro jardo's tonight find out what's wrong with his but at some point tonight (even if its midnight) I'm gonna get the head off and make sure the turbo is ok
    Im sure one the heads off it will be clear what's happened and then put it right, I've kind of decided even if the rods are ok I'm gonna replace them as I'm half way there :)

    Its a minor issue in the grand plan, better it happen now than say on a track :) feel a little better now and have spoken to beach buggy and niki, it's not the end of it, it's only the start :)
  5. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Ive got an inspection cam if you want to borrow it Phil? Although the head needs to come off anyway, its here if you want it..
  6. slowcoach3
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    slowcoach3 Active Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    At least if you end up doing the rods something positive will have cone from this :)
  7. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    I know that you're not pointing the blame at me at all Phil, but it was me that told you water alone would be fine, and I'll stand by that.

    I genuinely do not think that running plain water in the WMI system was an error on your part at all, and I don't believe for one minute that it's the cause here, unless there is a deeper underlying issue with your WMI system.

    On a healthy car, with a working WMI system, running pure water will NOT have caused this failure. I ran pure water several times in my old 216k engine with the hybrid at 300bhp, even using it on track once, and it wasn't an issue at all.

    I know plenty of people who run water injection systems, and have never even considered using methonal.

    Properly sucks though, whatever has caused it. Looking forward to seeing what's happened when you get the head off.
  8. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Thank you dave, I've almost got the head off

    im hoping its blown the gasket nothing more but I'm not that lucky :( hopefully will have the head off tonight and then see what's happened gut feeling is its a valve nothing to do with meth
    Rods will be changed even if it means taking a month or 2 to raise the funds, Ron will come back stronger :)
  9. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Well this Man ^^^^ Russ is a hero, went over to see Russ with Jardo and Lou tonight to collect a head for Jardo, so we can do a swap over to save his having to be crack tested and skimmed, anyway deal was done and then Russ said he had an AGU head without cams that he was gonna kit to his, at this point i think the 3 of us had a plan, now, i think Ron has burnt a valve, due to me not having a man shed i had planned to get my local engine builder to have the head, replace the valve/valves, re seat all the valves, so all i had to do was refit it and worry about the bottom end and turbo

    So i call pete willis enginenring today, and explain what happened, he said it sounds like a burnt valve and then went on about how my guides will prob be worn and if so they will have to be replaced, and that i should skim the head and it would prob be about £400 as there will be other valves that will need replacing......so after putting the phone down i knew that the second i walked in with Rons head it would cost a fortune :(, right anyway back on track, Russ's AGU head is in very good condition, so im gonna replace the valve stem oil seals fit Rons cams and the head is then ready to go back on, massive saving, which has taken a load off my shoulders :)

    im hoping my Turbo is ok, and that there is ZERO damage to it, only because atm after having it mapped i really dont have a pot to piss in, Rods well i have to do them lets face it, although, if i take the head off and its a burnt valve, no damage to the turbo and the bottom end i could have Ron back and running by the weekend (im at work everyday so only have evening) then that would give me the chance to recope my bank account, once all together and running i can then make sure its all ok before putting rods in

    This is what i love about ASN everyone that can help does, it restores alittle faith in the human race :)
  10. slowcoach3
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    slowcoach3 Active Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Anything to help mate, after all you did drop everything on a cold, snowy late monday night to come over and help me finish my downpipe!
  11. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    Its what its all about :) its great to have other members near by and we can help eachother out, (ok so Jardo can help me spend money very well, Love you Jardo :)) i feel so much more relaxed now than i have since it happened, its a shame i have to wait till tomorrow to get the head off Ron, but if all goes as it should Ron is well on the road to recovery :)
  12. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    Ok i have seen the Rtech thread and i have to say Niki has been very helpful on Facebook, once the car is rebuilt he wants me to take i9t back for a health check and then wants to do some logging using Meth with Plain water, that way we will know if thats the cause, he also wants to check fuel pressure aswell


    Ok so i started stripping Ron down last night, and got the head off and the damage as expected was plain to see

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    so i took the turbo off and was so happy to see this
    [​IMG]

    ive managed to look down at the inner side and it seems to be intact :) so i think just as i changed gear and powered down i saw what i thought was smoke, now i think what i saw was dust, i think the valve cracked and then broke up, that would explain the smoke out the exhaust and would explain the turbo still being in good condition

    Now i have zero funds, last thursday to collect ron cost me about £500 in total, now head set, bolts, water pump and cambelt kit will set me back about £220 funds i dont really have, but Russ let me have another AGU head that needed stem seals, so tbh i can rebuild a head for next to nothing

    [​IMG]

    i was gonna do rods and NA cams but as niki wants to find out the fueling and the like ive gotta rebuild to the spec it was before the mishap
  13. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    If you can mate get rods in now... it won't affect the outcome or the investigations but will save you the cost of gaskets etc if you can...

    <tuffty/>
  14. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    Yup, do your best to get them in. Sell a kidney.

    Glad it was an obvious problem tho, good luck
  15. slowcoach3
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    slowcoach3 Active Member

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    I'll buy your injectors phil, that should help out towards the cost of rods.....
  16. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    Lol Russ thats a good idea, but then Ron wont run :)

    anyway Jardo is on the look out for some for you dude
  17. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    Tuffty what rods would you recommend and what sort of price inc postage are they?
  18. slowcoach3
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    slowcoach3 Active Member

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    Just tryin to help dude!
    Most folks use IE rifle drilled i think mate, you can get them direct....think i remember hearing something about Welly trying out some Chinese rods that cost acout 25p though, non rifle drilled but CHEAP. I'm obviously not recommending them but something to think about?
  19. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    Im gonna convert our dinning room in to my head rebuild station, that way instead of watching mind numbing spirit crushing **** on TV i can go in there in the warm and lap valves in :)

    wont take long and tbh the twins would prob find it interesting
  20. coatesy
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    coatesy poking badgers with spoons

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    FUN times lapping valves in especially 20 of them, just don't balls up with the valve spring seating, and end up doing it twice like i did.. lapping 40 valves in, in the space of three days is a crappy job
  21. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    Lol, the inlets are a pain, but back in the day lapping valves in was part of any head job i done, i always enjoyed it to start with, then after about 5mins (1 valve) i was bored lol, that was long before 16v engines let along 20v ones :)

    i was told many years ago (first day in full time work, so 20 yrs ago in Aug) when refitting valves a pencil magnet, small screwdriver and some multi purpous grease is all you need, a smear of grease in the collet, use the magnet to get the collet in the rough area, then use the small screwdriver to locate it in the stem, once both are done and spring compressor is released, tap the stem to make sure its located fully, once all valves are re fitted, fill the ports with diesel/petrol and make sure you have no weeps around the valve seat

    christ many memories of doing this, havent done it in 5 yrs tbh, fun times ahead
  22. coatesy
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    coatesy poking badgers with spoons

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    [Feb 21, 2013]
    haha yeah man that's how i did mine, getting the collets on ... what a pita. then boom you drop one world comes to a stop until you find it again.

    good luck, have fun with your coarse and fine grinding paste and child's bow and arrow sucky thing :D
  23. Lewis583
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    Lewis583 Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 22, 2013]
    Yup, exactly the same way I was taught. Like playing Operation in reverse lol. Last one I did was a Toyota Camry 2.2 8v, so was nice and easy :happy:

    Christ, you aren't going to misplace that cylinder head even if you tried. That red paint must add 15whp surely.
  24. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 22, 2013]
    you going to get the injectors flow checked?
    was plug on that cyl different in any way to look at?
  25. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 22, 2013]
    in stock here.. IE 144x20 RD
    £399+vat
  26. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 22, 2013]

    Bill that's my plan there is a place in Plymouth that an do it iirc, I will mark cylinder 2 and get them to flow test them and see the out come :)

    im checking funds ATM and may build the head ready and then wait until I can afford a set of rods and give you a shout, do they come with new bigends?
  27. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 22, 2013]
    well ive bought both heads home from work, all clean, tomorrow evening im gonna strip the valves out and then take them to work to de coke them, then i can lap them in one evening

    I picked my son Jake up tonight (he comes to stay everyother weekend) he loves 'daddys red car' so first thing he said was, have you got the red car, i replied no jake, he said why not daddy, i said cos i broke it :( after a couple of seconds he said, but you can fix it as you make cars better at work )ahh bless) anyway as we are leaving plymouth sat at some lights in front of me was a bmw and in the outside lane was an audi A4, jake was looking and then shouted Daddy a car just like your red one, i was so proud, and its so sweet to hear him say Audi :) its his birthday soon and he wants a new car, one that goes pisss tusssss

    anyway back on topic, ive decided im gonna make Ron tip top, all engine parts are gonna be washed in the degrease tank at work so it looks good once finished

    I feel like ive taken a massive step back, i always thought id be enjoying the hard work now rather than doing more :(
  28. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 23, 2013]
    they come with ARP's boilt wise, I have big end shells on the shelf to go with them.. they dont come "with them".
    Calico coated shells are £65+vat fyi
  29. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 23, 2013]
    Thank you Bill will factor that in, im gonna do the bottom end, even if it takes me 2 months to save the funds :)

    ive taken over the dinning room, cylinder head is in there so i can strip the valves out and lap them in, gonna get the head all done in the warm before going to far on the block :)
  30. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 23, 2013]
    i had planned to get the valves out tonight and decoke them at work on monday and lap them in monday night, BUT as always ive hit a brick wall, i borrowed 3 different valve spring compressors and not one will do the job, so i remembered where i started my app 20 yrs ago we had a SP one, that had a nice long hollow tube so getting at the collets was easy, quick look on ebay and found one in Saltash (plymouth) i messaged the seller, but as id texted Jardo and Joe about one i posted the pic to say one like this, anyway, Jardo, bless his cotton socks, bought it for me as a thank you for doing his car, he is picking it up tomorrow evening, so all systems go again

    Gotta love the ASN forum help a member feelings, top stuff again ASN :)
  31. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    Right ok a little work has been done, i needed a spring compressor, no one had the type i needed and Jardo found this and bought it for me :)

    [​IMG]

    so i started taking the burnt valve out

    [​IMG]
    then it became clearthe damage to the valve seat, most is below the seat face, but the seat would have to be replaced :(

    [​IMG]

    not a great picture, so i thought not to worry i will use the head Russ gave me, after taking out some valves it was clear the guides are very badly warn :(:( so tomorrow morning i will go to my local engine builder and see how much he will charge me to fit a new seat in to my head, an expense i could have done without :(
  32. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    bugger i meant to add that i jacked back all the tappets and cleaned all the valves ready to be lapped in :)

    [​IMG]

    so the evening wasnt completely wasted :)
  33. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    work has been flat out this week, but i got Rons head stripped, then dropped the head in to the local engine builders, he said the seat can be cut and wont be a problem :) but then said my exhaust valve guides are shot, although not as bad as on the head Russ let me have, they are bad enough to need replacing, ok, ive know pete for about 10 yrs, he builds race engines that cost upwards of 35k, so i then explained my plan for Ron:

    Rods from B5
    bigends from B5
    rebuild the head
    victor rains head gasket
    OEM valve stem oil seals

    he said that the guides are as important as rods and at the price should be changed, now at this point im expecting him to say £300, but no, he has said to supply and fit new guides, cut the valve seats and so all ready to rebuild would be £100, then ive just gotta lap the valves once with the fine and rebuild

    That would also give me piece of mind that the head is top notch, and the bottom end will be aswell, so (fingers crossed) will make for a long happy friendship between head and block :)

    As the parts arrives i will add pictures, ATM im expecting to start the rebuild in about 10 days time, so if all goes well will be on the road again in 2 weeks :)
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    great price on the headwork
  35. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    Totally agree Bill, guides iirc he said were £40 and to fit them and cut the seats he would do for £60, Pete knows me well, he skims and crack tests every head ive taken off, although he takes the piss that my 1.8 'only' produces 290bhp (lol) he knows that id put loads of work into it and in his own words said if the price was to high i would prob run the risk on the guides and not replace them, tbh that was really good of him :)

    Bill in your opinion is there anything else i should do/replace/check while the head is off and the pistons out?

    p.s i will be on the phone at the start of the week for rods and big ends :)
  36. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    when i wrote this on the 5 oct last year i didnt think it would be so soon lol, thats booost for you :)
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    Its ok bottom end wise yea?
    top end will be fresh as a daisy once done also..

    seems like you have it covered dude :)
  38. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Feb 28, 2013]


    Yeah it all seems good, pistons are in good shape, I may do the rings aswell as the pistons are out, crank seems spot on, I'm looking forward to the rebuild now :)


    Thank you Bill your a star
  39. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Mar 2, 2013]
    Ok sa few questions for Prawn, Bill and Paul, hope you can help

    Ok so once Ron is rebuilt Niki wants it back for logging, his words to me on thursday were, once its together and running call Ben and bring the car up for a day so we can log and health check it and tweak the mapping anyway you want to make use of the rods, if you wanna add any hardware we can sort that aswell

    so first off im really pleased with Nikis customer service, he messaged me at gone half 9 in the evening :)

    Right first question, having seen the VVT on Facebook and bearing in mind Ron was a VVT car, and his head is in bits would it pay to fit a VVT unit so once logging has been done the VVT can be tweaked?

    Also thoughts on the AGN NA cams, is this worthwhile to do, if it is then i could change the cams once logging has been done as lets face it, changing the cams isnt hard

    last one, Ron is gonna cost a bucket load more than i first thought so a miltek is even futher away than it was (ie prob never now lol) i saw Prawns comment about removing the centre box, would this gain anything on my standard S3 cat back?

    hope someone will be able to help :)

    to me it seems worthwhile as im making the engine stronger so lets make the most with more power
  40. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Mar 3, 2013]
    If you've got or can get a VVT unit Phil, then get it fitted mate, it can't hurt, and looking at the gains realised on Toms AUM yesterday it could be well worth while.

    As for cams, Nick C at AMD saw his Ibiza of a VERY similar spec to yours (ko4, wmi, relentless) gain 18bhp and 32lbft as a direct bolt on gain with no map changes at all, so for the sake of £50, as it's being rebuilt, I'd get searching. I picked up some ADR cams for mine yesterday :) I reckon ADR are more common than AGN, as there are loads of 1.8 passats and A4's around.

    Get your rings from GSF, they're £11 per piston. Beachbuggy and I use these and my engine is great.

    Centre section isn't going to add any power, just make it a bit louder, if that's what you want.

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