1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

A3 Quattro KO4 upgrade, its started

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by phil miller, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. s3dave
    Offline

    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2009
    Messages:
    10,120
    Likes Received:
    729
    [Apr 14, 2013]
    Nothing wrong in using an MBC to curb a spike, certainly alot better than damaging things..
  2. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [Apr 14, 2013]
    That's what why I was thinking Dave, I don't want to damage anything, if it can help to stop a problem and set once and not messed with then surely it's worth it as a fail safe if the 75 went lazy/dead?


    also just thought of another thing I must do, in my early days of playing with it I vac hoses in the boost gauge to the fpr, and the DV is on its own feed, I'm gonna change that so the DV and boost gauge and meth boost is off one and the fpr has its own feed, it would be just my luck to get a vac leak, run lean, and them melt a piston lol


    Dave I was reading a how to that you wrote about injector cleaning, how much would you charge to put mine thro your cleaner?
  3. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    HAVE you EVER run ONE or ARE you JUST repeating WHAT you HAVE read OFF the INTERNET?

    What's WITH all THE random CAPITAL letters?

    I HAVE run A manual BOOST controller FOR quite SOME time SO I feel I can SAFELY give MY opinion OF them WITHOUT Super**** GIVING his USUAL dribble.

    Whilst in theory being able to cap your boost at 21psi and have a second safety barrier for any spiking that might occur in reality most manual boost controllers are so cheaply made that you cannot accurately set them up to give you exactly 21psi. So in most cases (both times woth the two controllers I have had) you either limit the cars performance or it overboosts at 23psi (for instance) constantly.

    And with the ball and spring ones the operation just isn't linear enough for it to work in parallel with the N75, the N75 asks for one thing and the MBC is still scratching its way around settling somewhere in the middle.

    Fix the problem, don't plaster over it with tat like am MBC
  4. s3dave
    Offline

    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2009
    Messages:
    10,120
    Likes Received:
    729
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    He is getting it fixed at R tech, so it would only be a temp safety measure..
    If you post some up Phil i will get them cleaned for you gratis...
    phil miller likes this.
  5. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    He shouldn't need it though.

    His hot side has been ported, so the software and hardware are not matched now. If the car surges at 21psi peak as Niki has set it then you will need to set the peak boost much lower to remove the surge. My only worry would be the inbalance of efficiencies between the portes hot side and the standard cold side. Although Dan knows what he is doing so I am sure it will be fine.

    It just needs the mapping adjusted for its new found efficiency, no need to spend money on an MBC and the related messing around to fit it and get it set up properly.
  6. badger5
    Offline

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    763
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    Jardo - you are talking ****** fella

    Forge Unos MBC does what it says on the tin, and if plumbed in parallel to N75, *could* in the event of N75 failure cap an otherwise boost spike, If Phil wants a safety type device in place to prevent a spike.

    Given Phil has map switching, simple fix until mapped again is go onto lower setting... simples

    the MBC comments stand however :p
    phil miller and 16Klappe like this.
  7. Scullies
    Offline

    Scullies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,286
    Likes Received:
    324
    [Apr 15, 2013]

    Are there any unmapped S3's :sly:
    16Klappe likes this.
  8. Jason.s
    Offline

    Jason.s Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    348
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    unfortunately lol.
    16Klappe likes this.
  9. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    From my understanding of Phils problem it is a recurring issue, rather than an occasional peak which requires a safety cap.

    Reading the answers given it seems to me that using a boost controller to limit the peak boost is being suggested, rather than having the MBC set at say 23psi allowing full control to the N75 with the MBC as a higher safety net if the N75 cannot control the boost.

    PT runs a unos as a safety device for surge doesn't he? I didn't know they were a ball and spring design too, clearly they are better built than the ball and spring controllers I have used.
  10. Jason.s
    Offline

    Jason.s Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    348
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    Who suggested use a controller? Dave and SK said use an MBC in parallell to cap any spikes?

  11. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    Capping it at 21psi won't help though, because that is where peak boost is anyway and it is surging before that because Phil is driving it like a diesel. By that I am assuming they are suggesting he use it for flat line peak boost control.

    The car needs mapping, not capping.

    Just drive around the surge, no more than half throttle before 4K and get it to Niki to make the most of the new efficiency.
  12. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Apr 15, 2013]

    Just to clarify, an mbc will cap boost. HOWEVER, surge is a result of boost/pressure being made to quickly , either for the engine to consume or the compressor runs out of its efficiency zone. Capping boost at 21 psi is all very well but if you getting surge at 17psi in a wot position at mid rpm then a 21psi set mbc isn't going to help! The mbc needs to be set at a point which will stop surge which almost certainly will be below the max boost levels of the turbo anyway. It should be in my mind used only as a back up to prevent over boost if the n75 fails. They have their place and a definite backup safety measure!
    What Phil needs is for his n75 map to be adjusted to make the boost more refined, gradual and more suited to his setup. The extra porting he's trying will hopefully free up some extra top end, if its made the turbo more efficient low down as well that's a bonus. I have a feeling though from what phils told me he might get similar bhp but more torque. I've also told him to unplug the n75 until its mapped. Which is by far the safest option ;-)
    16Klappe likes this.
  13. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    " map don't cap " now there's a tag line ;-)
    16Klappe likes this.
  14. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    Thanks Dan, good information for those who don't know.

    It's nice to know I'm not full of **** as everybody likes to think :beerchug:

    -

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  15. Jason.s
    Offline

    Jason.s Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    348
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    But it was only suggested to make it safer until he got to Niki`s. Not to run it full time as a cure for the surge.
  16. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    Surge occurs before peak boost, when the hot side/exhaust flow passes the efficiency of the cold side. Limiting boost with an MBC won't help the issue, the issue is that the turbo is spooling far to quickly. The only way to fix it is to either slow the turbo right down somehow or to run the boost so low that surge wasn't possible.

    I don't know the figures but you would need to limit the boost so low you might as well run actuator pressure.

    Phil has variable mapping, so he can just select a less aggressive map. He doesn't need an MBC at all, because he can just change is N75 map and do the same job...
  17. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    Yes but height as well just unplug the n75 or run the low boost map rather than fit an mbc.
    16Klappe likes this.
  18. badger5
    Offline

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    763
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    PT - No he does'nt - Map and N75 control

    Forge Unos has always been ball and spring, and always done what its was designed to do.. You cant compare egay Halman devices with Forges Unos MBC


    Seems you are not as up to date with your "facts" as you thought Messer Jardo :p :) ;)
    16Klappe likes this.
  19. badger5
    Offline

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    763
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    Phil has mentioned he has the map switching so juts do that and wait until its back at RTech for checking/changing. Its just an N75% duty cycle clip applied at the end of the day which should work.

    OR............ unplug N75 like you say. :)
  20. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    alot of very interesting things above, shows im still a little new to petrol turbo tuning, yes my Diesel mk5 that ive had for 3 yrs is a change at 3500rpm so i do tend to drive a little girlie lol

    Anyway ive already put it in to setting 2 that reduces boost, also i will keep an eye on the boost gauge and defo not give it the beans below 4k

    Ron is evolving all the time, ive found a reason to HATE EBC red stuff rear pads, they make one hell of a noise even when hot :(, i like to drive with the radio low or off, so i can keep an ear on things, but hearing the brakes is annoying to say the least :(

    Now as expected i do have to go to Dewsbury on friday the 26 :( so i will be taking Ron, a 600 odd mile round trip, will be home on the saturday, so oil and filter change ready to go back to Rtech on the 30, it means Ron will have covered around 1000 miles since the rebuild, which in my eyes is a good mileage
  21. superkarl
    Offline

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    7,793
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    [Apr 15, 2013]
    sorry for this phil.

    But whaaaaat a ****ing tool
    Sam_ and Jason.s like this.
  22. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [Apr 16, 2013]
    Says you with your broken but otherwise standard S3 trying to hand out poor tuning advice to somebody who has done more in two weeks than you have in your entire ownership of the car.

    And if you haven't guessed yet, you were wrong and I was right. So you can't even make the forum retard look stupid!

    :)
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  23. Sam_
    Offline

    Sam_ Down under

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,863
    Likes Received:
    367
    [Apr 16, 2013]
    Will you two stop flirting
  24. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [Apr 16, 2013]
    He started it!

    Haha :p
    scott6452 likes this.
  25. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [Apr 16, 2013]
    Ok so today i changed the oil and filter, ive done 120miles so was happy to have a good look round, the only thing i noticed was a very small weep of oil, a small drop on the bottom of the engine mount, so lifted off the top belt cover and my camshaft oil seal is weeping a little, so i will be replacing it over the weekend before it gets to bad, apart from that everything is fine

    I also gave the FPR its own vac feed, so the DV and gauge is running off one and the FPR on another, help to keep it safe :)
  26. Prawn
    Online

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,815
    Likes Received:
    1,513
    [Apr 16, 2013]
    Sounds excellent Philler. Are you still on mineral oil?

    my turn for a ride in this is long over due!
  27. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [Apr 16, 2013]
    Its now on 5w40 semi from TPS

    Your more than welcome anytime dude
  28. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [May 4, 2013]
    Right its been a while since i updated this, a lot has happened since my last update, where to start first, ok Ron has now covered 1750 miles since the rebuild, i trip to Dewsbury for my Aunts Funeral, the drive was problem free (about the only good thing from that day :( )

    its also been back to R-Tech, now when Ron burnt a valve Niki facebooked me telling me once it was rebuilt to book in as he wanted to check the power, and do some logging work, all FOC, which is a great service imho

    Now i Think is the time to let you all in to a very BIG secret :) Dan (beachbuggy) messaged me about 6 weeks ago saying he had a way of getting a stock Ko4 to make better power, he wanted to use a turbo he knew was fine and knew what power it was making, so i sent my turbo to him for some hotside work, porting i would of thought, Dan asked me not to make it common knowledge until we had figures, so Ron was booked in at R-tech for tuesday just gone, i got there and Niki wasnt happy, my pikey MAP housing that he told me to change in feb is still on there, he should me the loss from the smoke machine, it was alot :(

    anyway he ran the car up, played around with it and then said, 303BHP at 22psi boost, he then went on to say, If i fit a proper MAP housing and fit a proper exhaust (im running a stock S3 system from the decat back) he would get 320BHP easy, the Ko4 is flowing better than he has ever seen and whatever Dan done to the turbo has made a massive difference, and has raised the bar for stock Ko4 turbo'd cars

    When talking to Niki he said with the housing and exhaust done i will be in hybrid power range, to say im happy is a massive understatement, its insane, off boost its perfect, on boost its like a druggie on speed, No lift shift is so much fun and full on Launch control is epic, althought the pops and bangs is great i think to many full boost launches would kill the clutch/DMF/box/Driveshafts

    Also ive since found out S3daves S3 was there, i didnt get to see him, if id have known i would have hung around

    so anyone who has ever laughed at ron....whos laughing now :) an exhaust and it will be the most powerful stock turbo'd Ko4 on the roads by a long way, and lets face it, who really maps a car with a stock exhaust, and for that reason it makes Ron even more of an Awesome build :)
    s3dave and slowcoach3 like this.
  29. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    [May 4, 2013]
    Ron is radical.

    I'll get a BWAPAHWAPWHAPWHA|WPHAWPHAWPHAWPHAW video tomorrow when I go to Mr Mils, if I can trust Phil with the camera I might even smash a launch with LC and get him to film it. Let him see how awesome it looks :p
    phil miller likes this.
  30. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [May 4, 2013]
    Im good with a camera, and a video of a full on launch would be good :)
  31. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [May 5, 2013]
  32. superkarl
    Offline

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    7,793
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    [May 5, 2013]
    Awesome news phil!
    Truly epic car/progress/bloke.

    Unfortunately youre going to have to withdraw your sig till you overtake westy when you sort out the map tube.
    phil miller likes this.
  33. Prawn
    Online

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,815
    Likes Received:
    1,513
    [May 5, 2013]
    haha, philler you lucky man.

    1bhp behind Westy still chap :laugh:
  34. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [May 5, 2013]


    Ok I think we can all safely say map housing (that doesn't leak boost) would easy see a 2bhp gain, and the exhaust will aid it even more :)


    westy, your title of most powerful will be mine, oh yes it will be mine :)


    Ok until it's confirmed on the rollers I will have to be happy with the most powerful 4dr stock ko4


    does this mean that Ron is now officially an S3 SLAYER? As its only westys one that's got more power :)
  35. BENJAMIN
    Offline

    BENJAMIN Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    82
    [May 5, 2013]
    One of my customers cars made 309bhp on a ko4. (Mk4 golf agu with my old ko4 setup, mapped by niki.) Sorry gays. :-D

    Bought the exhaust box yet Phil? Lets make it LOUD!
  36. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [May 5, 2013]
    Bugger, Niki did mention a stock Ko4 made 309, but i dismissed it as an urban legend :)

    well my younger brother has an unused backbox that he got for his astra, he never got round to fitting it so its been donated to the cause :), ive got about 6 metres of 3in stainless (donated to me by a mate who works in a factory) so im all ready to go loud :) will arrange it with you for the very near future dude :)
  37. badger5
    Offline

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    763
    [May 5, 2013]
    other categories of mods to include
    Actual std k04
    Modified k04
    water meth enhanced

    all relevant when comparing your dyno numbers :p
  38. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [May 5, 2013]
    lol, i walked into that one :), ok so i will have to define this even more

    the most powerful stock impellored Ko4+ on the road that is in a 4dr TQS thats go gay colour dash and is burgandy.


    a bit of a mouthful but covers every angle of my statement :p
  39. badger5
    Offline

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    763
    [May 5, 2013]
    its like saying my k03s got 260bhp... and then neglecting to mention, oh, its 12psi actuator (over double a k03s) and its running on 80% methanol also... Others reading it see K03s and 260bhp... and expect theirs to do so also.. They will feel pretty dissapointed when it does'nt happen..

    Power and mods go hand in hand.. :)

    Making it apparent that support mods helped achieve the goals.

    So many tired cars/turbos out there now. 1.8t's are old ..... and a lot are plain worn out.
    the gooduns, are always fresh engines, full mods and new turbo builds, there is no coincidence in that ;)
  40. phil miller
    Offline

    phil miller Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    83
    [May 5, 2013]


    you are 110% correct Bill, Ron has had a full rebuild, a rebuilt turbo and has all the power gaining mods so to compare it to a car that has done 100k wouldn't be fair as they prob wouldn't get the same results, but it's also fair to say the power Ron has now was hybrid range a few years ago, also people aiming for big power would prob have sim mods

    the bench mark for power is rising which is great for us all :)

    Bill when will you have your next RR day as I will come :)

Share This Page