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A3 1.8T FMIC

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by RichA3Turbo, Dec 10, 2003.

  1. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    Any one know who does front mount intercooler kits for the A3? I know forge/ABD do Golf4 kits, but not sur if it would fit behind the A3 bumper because of the crash bar.

    Rich /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
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  3. jimboA3
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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    If you phone awesome GTI in cheshire Rich, i know they are in the throws of putting one together for the A3, was speaking to them last week when mine was in for the remap. Thyre also putting together a brake kit comprising of boxster calipers and disks, apparently a lot cheaper than brembo's ! Cant wait !
    #2
  4. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    Rich,
    Jim at Star Performance can supply one for an S3....the same as mine.
    Since you were looking into the S3 IC set up anyway, I can't see it being a big deal to fit...
    Oh, and it works, I can confirm that!

    I can't remember the price...but apparently it's a bit cheaper than when we developed mine.
    #3
  5. DaveCav
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    DaveCav Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    Rich,
    Jim at Star Performance can supply one for an S3....the same as mine.
    Since you were looking into the S3 IC set up anyway, I can't see it being a big deal to fit...
    Oh, and it works, I can confirm that!

    I can't remember the price...but apparently it's a bit cheaper than when we developed mine.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Is it much better m8 over standard and how much are they roughly? thanks dave
    #4
  6. ooooaudi
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    ooooaudi Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    APR DO ONE THROUGH AWESOME FOR AROUND THE £750 MARK.
    #5
  7. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    DaveCav said:

    Is it much better m8 over standard and how much are they roughly? thanks dave

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, much better if you are running high boost...totally solid inlet temperatures and performance regardless of the weather!

    I think it'll be around the £800 mark all in...can't remember though...you'd have to call Jim and check.
    #6
  8. Stuart_A3_Turbo
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    Stuart_A3_Turbo Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    ABD FMIC does fit the A3, the bloke has fitted them to A3's before and he was the one who was going to do mine before some idiot hit our car. Price is £695
    #7
  9. nfluester
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    nfluester Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    did you see this one I posted a while back?

    [​IMG]

    the auction has ended now went for £315 but you could mail the guy for specifications and how he did it.

    apparently taken from a scania truck

    here is a rough translation:

    Would auction one drawer air cooler for A3/S3/. That cooler was an Einzelanfertigung extra for a S3 and is used instead of that two paltry original-cooler. The network of the Kühlers comes originally from a Scania-truck and offers the air substantially less resistance vis-à-vis the standard-networks and is in faultless condition. That cooler is absolutely thick and endures also drawer pressures over 2 bars. By request the Verrohrung cost-free can be include to that by that cooler. There sale of privately no guarantee and or withdrawal. I, shipping charges receive go Ebay fee at the expense of the buyer

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2445593318&category=14767
    #8
  10. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    A3 97-R 1.8T said:
    did you see this one I posted a while back?

    [​IMG]



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Personally, I'd say that IC is far too big for a standard turbo A3/S3...you'll end up with pressure drop and increased lag with our small turbos.

    Each to their own...but realistically, you should try to run as small - volume wise - an IC as will do the job correctly to minimise losses and lag...unless you are running a turbo the size of Bournemouth...in which case it'll move so much air at relatively low pressures that you'll not need a big IC at all!

    The other thing is that on an S3, anything above the lower edge of the bumper re-enforcement bar is wasted anyway as it's not in the airflow....but hell, why let practicalities like that get in the way of sad pub conversations about IC size? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    Of course, there are those who will want to cut their bumper away to show off their polished FMIC in a very sad Max Power sort of way. Desperate.
    #9
  11. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    Glen, do you have any experience/knowledge of the Forge uprated side-mount ic for us single ic guys? It's supposedly bigger, with better end tank design, and fits in the std wheel arch position. Just wondering how much improvement vs ease of installation vs cost /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    Thx /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #10
  12. mramage
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    mramage Member

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    [Dec 10, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    ...but hell, why let practicalities like that get in the way of sad pub conversations about IC size? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, mines bigger than yours, so there /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    It's off a truck like, so it's gotta be better, init /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #11
  13. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]

    [​IMG]

    Looking at this picture again...
    Is it me? Or does it look like the person who fitted this has cut away the aluminium extrusion beam to get the IC to fit?
    It looks like it to me...looks like the IC is 'sunk in' to the rear of the support beam...if this is the case I'd have grave concerns about the reduction in structural integrity of the vehicle in the case of a front end smash.


    Out of interest...this is my FMIC as supplied by Star Performance:

    [​IMG]


    This is the FMIC installed:

    [​IMG]

    This IC does slot behind the re-enforcement bar slightly...but basically it's designed to fill the bront bumper cut-outs of an S3 bumper...it's also offset to the passenger side slightly, as there's no SMIC at that side to feed anymore.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Glen, do you have any experience/knowledge of the Forge uprated side-mount ic for us single ic guys? It's supposedly bigger, with better end tank design, and fits in the std wheel arch position. Just wondering how much improvement vs ease of installation vs cost


    [/ QUOTE ]

    As it happens....

    [​IMG]

    This is a Forge Motorsport SMIC...it's a custom unit for my S3...but basically it's just a Golf 4 SMIC with a lower take off for an S3 added...and anodised black! I also had the take off pipes made about 10mm linger to give me plenty of room for some big beefy heavy duty hose clamps.
    Russell at Forge was good enough to arange this custom work for me!

    The SMIC upgrade is a piece of cake to fit...
    Remove the bumper, remove the cooling air duct, remove the old IC and fit the uprated IC...easy!

    This is it in place:

    [​IMG]

    The forge unit is extremely well made...fits a treat...and the air duct fits back on as was....for the price of around £400 it does a good job.
    I have no reason to think thet their FMIC for a single IC Golf 4 won't be just as good to fit or won't work just as well.



    I've not had the chance to dyno this addition yet...can't see it making any difference on my S3...but you can't have air that's too cool now can you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    #12
  14. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Mark R said:
    Yeah, mines bigger than yours, so there /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    It's off a truck like, so it's gotta be better, init /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Oh no it's not! Mines bigger!!

    ...and mines polished so everyone can see it! So that makes it better 'cos it adds 20 BHP. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #13
  15. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    Sorry dude, should've been more specific. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I've an A3, and would like to (eventually) upgrade my ic, but fear the cost of the fmic, so was thinking of the Forge smic instead /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Thx, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #14
  16. DaveCav
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    DaveCav Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    Jim reckons about £600 including vat @ star peformance not bad at all
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  17. nfluester
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    nfluester Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    Sorry I was just trying to be useful, I no nothing about intercoolers and how they work. I was more amazed by the price than the size! I can't understand why they are normally priced so high, excuse my ignorance but they look like a glorified radiator to me?

    I certainly wouldn't want some great big lump of nonsense showing in my front bumper.

    Presumably any that fit behind the front bumper re-enforcement bar would not be visible and wouldn't require any bumper modifications?

    is it not possible to fit one from an S3 / TT to an A3T?


    #16
  18. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    A3 97-R 1.8T said:
    is it not possible to fit one from an S3 / TT to an A3T?




    [/ QUOTE ]

    Basically, No! The inlet manifold on TT/S3 takes from the passenger side where as the 150/180 units take from the drivers side. Looked into doing this and it would cost around £500 for inlet manifold, S3 turbo piping, and then you would also need silicone hoses, and more pipework... all to fit STANDARD intercoolers seems like a waste of money to me, when you can go and buy the ABD one for £700 all in for front mount. Think this will be the route i take when i come to do it... just a case of prioritising the mods... And i think i would really have to sort out IC and exhaust before anything else.

    Rich

    PS. thanks for everyones replies!
    #17
  19. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Drill said:
    Sorry dude, should've been more specific. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I've an A3, and would like to (eventually) upgrade my ic, but fear the cost of the fmic, so was thinking of the Forge smic instead /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Thx, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, I got ya Drill...
    But under the skin they are all the same...if it fits an S3 it can be made to fit an A3 when it comes to engine / IC stuff.

    However, as Rich says...the cost may prove to be the limiting factor.

    Personally, I'd knock my own manifold up if I couldn't get a TT/S3 one...but not everyone has access to the gear I have....although I'd think there would be some way of getting a crossflow type IC onto an A3.

    It's easy to get the charge into a fMIC...but completing the circuit could be tricky.

    The Forge SMIC is a nice piece of kit..their FMIC also looks good for single SMIC cars:
    [​IMG]
    Obviously, it would come down to cost...but from my experience I'd trust the Forge item to fit better than the ABD one.

    As to weather the Golf 4 unit will fit an A3...I've no idea.
    #18
  20. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    A3 97-R 1.8T said:
    Sorry I was just trying to be useful,


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I appreciate that...
    And that's what makes a forum like this a source of information and learning for all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif


    [ QUOTE ]

    I no nothing about intercoolers and how they work. I was more amazed by the price than the size! I can't understand why they are normally priced so high, excuse my ignorance but they look like a glorified radiator to me?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm no expert either...but there are simple guidelines to follow as described.
    As for being a radiator...that's exactly what they are...and air to air radiator. And a bloody expensive one at that!


    [ QUOTE ]

    I certainly wouldn't want some great big lump of nonsense showing in my front bumper.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well said...
    Now to go on and educate the Max Power boys about subtlety...


    [ QUOTE ]

    Presumably any that fit behind the front bumper re-enforcement bar would not be visible and wouldn't require any bumper modifications?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You can see mine if you look for it...being black helps...but if you look in through the lower S3 grilles you'll see the FMIC and pipework.
    I needed slight mods to the front panel and drivers side IC ducting to get the thing to fit...nothing major though.

    No bumper mods at all.


    [ QUOTE ]

    is it not possible to fit one from an S3 / TT to an A3T?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    As Rich says...S3 into A3 is difficult...requires a fair bit of re-engineering.

    You can't even fit a TT FMIC onto an S3...different amount of room behind the bumper skin etc prevent this. We tried.
    #19
  21. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    from my experience I'd trust the Forge item to fit better than the ABD one.

    As to weather the Golf 4 unit will fit an A3...I've no idea.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats the problem i think... Looks to me that they remove the from barrier/brace to fit it, which i would not be willing to do. The ABD one fits below that, so would be easier to fit to the A3.

    Rich
    #20
  22. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Stuart_A3_Turbo said:
    ABD FMIC does fit the A3, the bloke has fitted them to A3's before and he was the one who was going to do mine before some idiot hit our car. Price is £695

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Dude is that the price +vat or excluding?

    Rich
    #21
  23. RAPS3
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    RAPS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    Glen,

    Did you try any charge coolers on your quest for cooler air?

    I'm only asking as on my Astra Gte Turbo, I used to have two of them (regal & courtney) along with the standard intercooler to keep the intakes down.

    I dont think I've come across anyone trying the chargecooler method on the VAG 1.8t engines of any variety. Is there a reason why that I'm not seeing?
    #22
  24. PaulRS3
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    PaulRS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    badger5 bills ibiza jabba 350 conversions uses a whopping great charge cooler and nothing else.

    £1200 mind you IIRC.

    was fantastic seeing it do 160 mph at bruntingthorpe recently.
    #23
  25. Stuart_A3_Turbo
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    Stuart_A3_Turbo Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Stuart_A3_Turbo said:
    ABD FMIC does fit the A3, the bloke has fitted them to A3's before and he was the one who was going to do mine before some idiot hit our car. Price is £695

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Dude is that the price +vat or excluding?

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry, i think its £685 and im pretty sure VAT is included in that price. On the website it doesnt actually show it for the A3 but he said it would fit as i went down there myself and spoke to him in person, he also said he would fit it for me there for 100 quid. If you are interested in it mate, if i can get money together in time for it maybe we could get a discount if we buy them together, or even sort a group buy if enough people are after one?
    #24
  26. Stuart_A3_Turbo
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    Stuart_A3_Turbo Member

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    [Dec 11, 2003]
    Pic of it on golf MK4 with the nitrous halo kit, which sprays nitrous onto the intercooler lowering the intake temperatures even more. This kit is an extra 400 quid though.
    #25
  27. Ess_Three
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    [Dec 12, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    r88per said:
    Glen,

    Did you try any charge coolers on your quest for cooler air?

    I'm only asking as on my Astra Gte Turbo, I used to have two of them (regal & courtney) along with the standard intercooler to keep the intakes down.

    I dont think I've come across anyone trying the chargecooler method on the VAG 1.8t engines of any variety. Is there a reason why that I'm not seeing?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I never even considered a Chargecooler to be honest.

    Chargecoolers are fine where you struggle for space to fit a decent surface area air to air IC...which isn't too much of a problem on the S3.

    The advantage of a Chargecooler is that the inlet temperatures are very constant...the temperature of the cooling water in a very efficient system.
    The problem to me is that very same issue...they never get really cool as the water always tends to add some heat due to slow heat transfer / change of heat associated with water cooling systems.

    On a cold day a decent air to air IC is better - colder air outside = colder charge temperatures more quickly.

    On a hot day, in traffic, the Chargecooler may have the advantage in this respect as it can still remove charge air temperature without air passing the heat exchanger...unfortunately, short sprints and long periods at slow speeds will heat up the water cooling medium, and in effect add heat to the charge air temperature until the air passing the Chargecooler radiator can remove it again. ...which being a water based system, takes some time.

    My preference when living in the frozen north of the UK would always be an air to air IC...assuming there is the space to get a decent frontal surface area IC in there...which there is.

    Even on silly high boost (1.85 bar peak) I'm not seeing any inlet temperatures above about 20-23 degrees on the rolling road...less on the open road due to the proper 'wind chill' type effect.
    #26
  28. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 12, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Stuart_A3_Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Stuart_A3_Turbo said:
    ABD FMIC does fit the A3, the bloke has fitted them to A3's before and he was the one who was going to do mine before some idiot hit our car. Price is £695

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Dude is that the price +vat or excluding?

    Rich

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry, i think its £685 and im pretty sure VAT is included in that price. On the website it doesnt actually show it for the A3 but he said it would fit as i went down there myself and spoke to him in person, he also said he would fit it for me there for 100 quid. If you are interested in it mate, if i can get money together in time for it maybe we could get a discount if we buy them together, or even sort a group buy if enough people are after one?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Its worth a go mate... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #27
  29. RAPS3
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    RAPS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 15, 2003]
    Yeah Glen, I understand what youre saying. I just thought there would have been more people with them fitted, as they are an alternative.
    I went for the charge coolers on the astra mainly due to the fact that I got them cheap at the time, and I didnt want it to look turboed with a huge intercooler.

    Can vouch for what youre saying about the intake temp rising due to the coolant of the CC absorbing the heat in traffic. If you sat there long enough it got really high. Then you did have to wait a while for the intake to drop. Thats why I left the original intercooler there.
    Someone I know took out the intercooler and rely'd totally on a twin chargecooler method, everything was ok until his pump failed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif
    #28
  30. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    r88per said:
    Someone I know took out the intercooler and rely'd totally on a twin chargecooler method, everything was ok until his pump failed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ooh.. That could have got messy! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
    #29
  31. AndybS3
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    AndybS3 Member

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    [Dec 15, 2003]
    Im looking into a custom made FMIC, Glen is there anything you would change on yours, looking at the pictures it looks like it could go lower and add 3-4" on the length, also would it be better to do away with the bends on the in/out takes and put them coming out the back of the headers coming out at an angle and pointing up? any info would be appreciated as I have a m8 who fixes and makes truck i/cs and says he can put any design together if this works out I can sort out a group buy on a reasonably priced FMIC

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #30
  32. Ess_Three
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    [Dec 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Andy bS3 said:
    Glen is there anything you would change on yours, looking at the pictures it looks like it could go lower and add 3-4" on the length,


    [/ QUOTE ]

    No, not really...
    Perhaps it would have been easier to fit with hard pipes curling round at both ends...either that or do both ends with Samco hoses or similar.

    My FMIC fills the gap in the bumper...it actually extends slightly below the upper edge of the bumper cut-out IIRC..so adding depth will do you no good as it won't be in the air stream.

    Going wider adds it's own problems...you have the front foglights and all their depth to contend with...and I'm not prepared to lose them...I want the car to look standard.



    [ QUOTE ]

    also would it be better to do away with the bends on the in/out takes and put them coming out the back of the headers coming out at an angle and pointing up?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You may have room...but since mine has needed cutting of the IC ducts and slight modding to the radiator support panel to accomodate that size of FMIC...I personally think you'd be struggling to get it much bigger and not have to do major mods - which I didn't want.
    I don't think you'd have room for top exit that's for sure...there is NO room in there...as anyone who has fitted Samco hoses will testify!

    I'm just not sure you could get the rear / top exits to work...it would make the set up very rigid...whereas the set up I have has a bit of 'give' in the hoses.
    You would have to be very exact with the fabrication!

    I guess trial and error is what it comes down to.


    [ QUOTE ]

    any info would be appreciated as I have a m8 who fixes and makes truck i/cs and says he can put any design together if this works out I can sort out a group buy on a reasonably priced FMIC


    [/ QUOTE ]

    My main concern was efficiency...I wanted the smallest possible increase in IC system volume for the maximum possible surface area / heat transfer...so I didn't want a huge lag inducing IC...something subtle that works is good for me....I think I'm about 20% above standard volume in total.

    Just be wary of going too big...you may well find that a lot of it isn't in the direct air stream with a really big FMIC..unles you are prepared to cut the front bumper unit - which I'm not.

    Looks are also second to efficiency in my eyes....

    All I can say is that my inlet temperatures on the dyno dropped from a once scary 70 ish degrees to around 20+ degrees...so I can safely say that Star Performance / Forge Motorsport got it right in my application.

    I guess you can't go far wrong with one of a similar design /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #31
  33. AndybS3
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    AndybS3 Member

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    [Dec 17, 2003]
    Cheers Glen
    I think its time for a garage clearout and get the car in and bumper off to see whats what.
    Im looking for the same idea as yours i.e. not one of those fly catching shiny JCB/RS Turbo stylee things, just something that will drop the temps without noticeable lag and tuck itself away nicely behind the bumper without ripping too much apart.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #32

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