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A great debate. Let the nation decide.

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by rich1068, Feb 19, 2008.

?

New tyres? Front or rear?

Poll closed Feb 24, 2008.
  1. Front

    58.5%
  2. Rear

    41.5%
  1. sleep envy

    sleep envy Member

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    no, I am saying that it's more likely down to the camber settings on the car

    if it were due to the tyre explain to me why a tyre worn equally across the tread (which is only 5 mm different from new to the point of illegal) will make it tramline?
     
  2. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    Worn tyres actually offer better grip in dry conditions than new ones. I assume no one would argue that?

    But in your example you had worn tyres front and rear did you not? Well thats what you posted? Are you now saying that the fronts had more grip that the rears?
     
  3. bacardi

    bacardi Active Member

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    Sorry - was a sarcastic response to Bowfers comment

    As for your notes, you're 100% spot on
     
  4. Amchlolor

    Amchlolor Active Member

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    I replace before illegal, but I don't pay for them.
    I tend to notice the car becoming sensitive to white lines/marks in the road, rather than a lack of grip.
     
  5. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    So how has the camber changed on my car? It hasn't. The only thing that has changed is the tyre depth.
     
  6. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    I try to change before they become iillegal, or close to
     
  7. bacardi

    bacardi Active Member

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    I change them when the dealer says its the tyres causing the whee lbearing noise so that they have ot admit it is in fact the wheel bearings

    13 wheel bearings, 11 tyres :)
     
  8. newbiecrg

    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    The tires on my S3 are mid worn and I can already feel the changes in grip....

    Actually some people might not be aware but is not only thread deep that gives the grip is actually the rubber properties... Have you ever wondered why winter tires wear very quickly if driven on dry hot tarmac? The compound is softer giving more grip at lower temperatures compared to normal summer tires...

    Another thing is that each heat cycle that you put the rubber on it actually hardens the compound slightly... So in terms of grip and talking only about the rubber a mid worn tire will have the rubber more "hard" than when it was new....

    Although it might not be noticiable by most drivers.... it is what happens.

    My father has tires that have lasted 60k km!!! He drives slowly and is very gentle on the tires... Some tires are like 5 years old... Hard as rocks for all the heat cycles (normal driving is enough to heat up the tire) and dried due to time... that rubber has absolutly no grip compared to when it was new... even if the threads are within legal limits..

    I change my tires every 2 years even if they are still legal... Usually they don't last two years but it is my limit...

    Pedro
     
  9. Amchlolor

    Amchlolor Active Member

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    Pretty much, yes.
    Tyre manufacturers spend a fortune making sure their tyres retain their performance for their entire life.
    I know all about heat cycles, I used to do bike development work for Avon.
    Road compounds don't suffer from it, not really.
    Competition tyres do, because they're designed to work within very strict temperature perameters.
    They're designed to get to temperatures you couldn't possibly reach on the road.
    So the cooling/heating/cooling/heating cycle is more pronounced.
     
  10. newbiecrg

    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    Worn tires of the same compound of normal tires (not racing slicks) do not offer more grip in normal (dirty roads) Do you really think they do????? So I would you will save your worn tires for summer trackdays on your BM???

    The extreme of a worn tire would be a slick tire... do you agree?

    Put yourself on a proper go kart, get a tire with the same softness (which would be hard)... but instead of driving it in the circuit drive it on a parking lot.... you will see the great grip of a slick/extreme worn tire... put even a little splash of water from washing your car and then you will really see grip!!! (not!!)

    Pedro
     
  11. sleep envy

    sleep envy Member

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    correct, it hasn't

    the contact patch will have changed as well

    which is why a less -ve camber setting will reduce that
     
  12. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    a worn, legal tyre (i.e. with tread, no slick) , will offer more grip than a new one in the dry. Please note I am saying in the dry, not on damp roads, not on wet roads, not in the rain, not in the snow. In the dry.
     
  13. sleep envy

    sleep envy Member

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    agreed

    less so in the wet
     
  14. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    Jesus. We agree on something!
     
  15. newbiecrg

    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    Sure is more pronunced but it exists!!

    Get your self this https://rexgauge.securesites.net/models.php?category=2100
    and check a new tire and the same one after a year of use....

    Maybe were are talking very small differences here.... but back to the topic the front vs rear is not negligible one...

    Pedro
     
  16. sleep envy

    sleep envy Member

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    :lmfao:
     
  17. newbiecrg

    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    I agree to disagree...lolololol

    If it is a worn tire you are probably saying it has more grip because there is more contact with the road.... whell if threads are legal I don;t think a tire can deform enough to take advantage of that.

    Also the rubber properties will have decayed compared to a new tire.

    If anything grip will be the same... not better.

    Pedro
     
  18. rich1068

    rich1068 Member

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    Five pages. Definitely a record for me.

    My decision is made.

    I totally understand both arguments but as far as my real world driving is concerned the new ones are going on the front.

    You guys can carry on if you like or lock it and close the poll. Up to you. Nothing new is being discussed and we don't want the thread to descend to mud slinging. Thanks to all.
     
  19. sleep envy

    sleep envy Member

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    road surfaces aren't billiard table smooth

    the aggregate in the wearing course which is designed to allow water to trickle away will also key into the grooves

    the less the tread depth the greater the percentage that the tyre and aggregate are joined

    therefore greater tread depth the lower the slipping angle

    which is why it's harder for me to get the arse out on a track day with less tread and when it does go it's at a far higher speed than with new boots
     
  20. sleep envy

    sleep envy Member

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    yes there is
     
  21. rich1068

    rich1068 Member

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    Be my guest then :)
     
  22. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    3 pages ago I did think that I would be locking the thread but credit to everyone who's been involed in the debate it has remained civilised.

    J.
     
  23. JamS3

    JamS3 Active Member

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    So just like real life driving then?

    It may or may not happen depending on the conditions?

    I dont think anyone on here/tyre experts who have done the tests are actually saying if you put new tyres on the front IT WILL HAPPEN more of the CHANCES ARE INCREASED.
     
  24. newbiecrg

    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    Nice theory but I don't buy it.... but I give in and OK in the dry it will have the same grip.

    In a track day you might feel harder to loose the rear but probably is because there is more rubber in the racing line hence creating more grip.... If you have raced before you know what happens when you step out of the racing line... it's like stepping on ice!! lololol
     
  25. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    So why bother posting up the links to the clips then? You used them as fact for your argument. The clips clearly show 2 runs showing what happens with worn tyres on the front and worn tyres on the rear.

    How many people do you think watched that show and thought **** need to change my tyres before I crash and die?

    Let me guess on that weeks top gear it was win a free ford C-max, complete with 4 new tyres from continental...
     
  26. Teejay

    Teejay Mellow Yellow

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    *cough* *er bo##ocks* *cough*

    You swap all four
    Then you swap the rears
    Then you swap all four.

    So actually, from the point you change all four to the point you change the rears the fronts have more tread depth.

    Or have I missed the point you were trying to make?!?
     
  27. JamS3

    JamS3 Active Member

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    I cant remember arguing on here.......

    More like just posting some FACT from experts/independents and not just OPINIONS to let the people arguing try to see some reasoning.
     
  28. JamS3

    JamS3 Active Member

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    Possibly Fifth Gear maybe....
     
  29. sleep envy

    sleep envy Member

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    you <-------------stick--------------->point

    4 new tyres - use car = worn rears, half worn fronts

    replace rear tyres = half worn fronts, new rears

    use car again = worn fronts, worn rears

    replace all four, etc, etc

    ok, there will be a point that the fronts will have more tread depth but there's nothing you can do about
     
  30. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    Thats the puppy!
     
  31. JamS3

    JamS3 Active Member

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    More interesting reading.....

    [20 Apr 07] Motorists Get Their Tyres Back to Front!
    Category: General
    Most drivers think that new tyres should be fitted to the front wheels

    A car tyre is often a distress purchase, but even when replacing one in the course of normal vehicle maintenance, it has long been believed that the new tyres should be fitted on the front wheels. Research by TyreSafe, Britain's foremost tyre safety organisation, has indicated that over 50% of motorists believe this to be the case and 30% of motorists did not know.

    However, recent demonstrations have indicated that it is more beneficial to fit the new rubber to the rear wheels, regardless of whether the vehicle is front or rear wheel drive. Industry research suggests that if the new tyres are fitted to the rear wheels, water on the road surface is better dispersed, which improves straight line braking ability. Conversely, if the rear track is fitted with part worn tyres, the car often has a dangerous tendency to oversteer.

    Although the majority of the cars on the road are front wheel drive, it seems to make sense to have the new tyres up front. The demonstrations also showed that there is often a greater loss of control when a rear tyre suffers a puncture, so in fact it makes greater sense to fit the fresh, less vulnerable rubber to the rear wheels.

    Rear tyres are subject to relatively low wear rates as well, meaning that the new tyres will have a longer lifespan on the back rims. Fitting new tyres to the rear and moving part worn rubber to the front each time also means that the rear tyres will be less prone to age-related deterioration from prolonged exposure.
     
  32. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    Do you not think you videos are flawed?
     
  33. JamS3

    JamS3 Active Member

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    Vicky B not good enough for Top Gear
     
  34. JamS3

    JamS3 Active Member

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    I have only watched them once so not taken a huge deal of notice its just there is so much information and guidance on fitting new tyres to the rear (see my new post above) and nothing at all to state putting them on the front it seems a no brainer to me really....
     
  35. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    Personally can't stand the women, but I'm not a great fan of fifth gear anyway. The only way it is watchable is on sky + so you can fast forward most of it...
     
  36. sleep envy

    sleep envy Member

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    and you're married?

    is it a civil partnership? ;)
     
  37. bacardi

    bacardi Active Member

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    Yup, you can easily watch an episode in under 20 minutes

    I love the way they leave it 6 months then copy an idea from Top Gear, only with half the budget

    plus Tiff Needel is an absolute arse
     
  38. marriedblonde

    marriedblonde Moderator

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    LOL...woman, can't stand the woman!

    Occasionally can't stand the wife either :)
     
  39. Amchlolor

    Amchlolor Active Member

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    I tell you when 5th gear stopped being an option for me.
    When they did a test (think it was between a Seat and a Gti Golf) around a racetrack, using reverse gear only...
    About the most pathetic attempt at humour I've seen since Only Fools and f*ckwits was on telly.
    TBH, if I were in charge of Seat/VW's press fleet, I'd have told them it was the last time they get a car to test.
    Honestly...screaming the tits of a car in reverse...:wtf:
     
  40. bacardi

    bacardi Active Member

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    now.........

    driving backwards

    New tyres on front or on rear?


    :jump:
     

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