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99 2.5 TDI - engine cut out and now won't start - timing issue? fuel pump?

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by mattupnorth, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jun 20, 2012]
    Alright chaps. Got an issue with my 99' 2.5 TDI A4. It cut out on me while driving the other day and now refuses to start. Tried a couple of bump starts and still no luck. Plenty of fuel in there and can be seen in pipes, no sign of any real air in it. Starter motor kicks in, but nothing fires up.

    Got it towed to a local garage who think the timing belt has slipped so it's now out, but haven't fully stripped it to determine the cause. They now say they don't actually have the tool to set the timing if they fitted a new cambelt kit/tensioner, which sounds a bit suspect!

    Anyone else experienced this or have any suggestions? fuel pump timing? are there any ways to confirm this as if the belt did slip I'm concerned I'd be wasting my money as the valves may be knackered, in which case I might ebay it for spares/repairs. The garage tried some easy start and it did try to start but didn't sound great. Thinking about it on a couple of occasions it has taken a couple of goes to start it in the last month or so, not sure if this was a precursor?

    My local VAG specialist in Sheffield quoted me £670 for a full cambelt kit/tensioners/rollers/waterpump/new aux belt&tensioners which seems quite a lot. It did have a cambelt kit in the last couple of years by the previous owner and hasn't done a great mileage since (£3k in receipts for work from last owner!).
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
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  3. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 20, 2012]
    get it to a garage worth a toss who know what they're doing.
    if we (as a garage) dont have the special tools to do a job, we dont tell the customer we dont have them...... we go and buy them cus we need them and they're an investment.

    even if they dont have the tools, it only takes a 6mm drill bit (pump timing hole), a mirror (to see the slots on the back ends of the cam) and your finger (to feel in the crank pin hole (once youve removed the plastic blanking plug)) to tell if the timings out.

    setting the timing up you would need the tool kit.
    #2
  4. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Jun 20, 2012]
    If the valves are knackerd you would easilly tell buy doing a compression test !!!
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  5. PAULF
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    PAULF Active Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    You need to VCDS it. The fuel pumps on these can be suspect, so a scan and check of the pump will be in order. If it's failed send it to Diesel Bob for refurbishment - it's not cheap, but at least you get a good, honest job done.
    You can also use VCDS to see what the pump timing is on the start cycle, even if it doesn't start.

    A Murran says, at the bottom of the block is a plastic bung. Take it out and turn the engine over by hand until the diesel pump timing holes line up. Then check with your finger that you can feel the hole in the crankshaft. That should give you an idea. The camshafts can be checked with the mirror mentioned, by removing the covers at the back of the engine and seeing if the slots line up. You can get the tools on eBay for a few pounds if adjustment is required.

    If the belt has been changed within the last couple of years, it SHOULDN'T have slipped. Why do your garage think it has?

    It is probably worth taking it to your VAG specialist for the checks, as they should have the software. I think £670 is not overly expensive for a full cambelt and ancillaries change - it's a big job

    Adamss24 is the forum2.5TDi guru, so if he comes along, listen to his thoughts first!
    #4
  6. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    Pull the LHD/driver side timing belt cover- if it's slipped timing then the belt will be slack- possible failure: water pump or relay roller... If the garage tried easy start then too much it will make the engine sound very coarse. Pumps are also known to fail but you will need diagnostics done before taking it off...
    #5
  7. shaz8389
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    shaz8389 Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    Considering we charge £801.23 at the stealers, £670 isn't too bad!
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  8. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    Thanks all. Given my skills don't beyond basic servicing I've now booked this in to my local VAG specialist next, I'll let them diagnose and assess any damage firstly.
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  9. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    but if the timing had slipped you wouldnt attempt a compression test until its been correctly timed up.
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  10. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    hang on just a minute! was it swifts/david underwoods on fitzwilliam street? i know david was pricing up a 2.5 cambelt job the other day.
    thats where i work. small world!
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  11. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    Hi Murran, yep well spotted, you'll be seeing it early next week! Spoke to someone there today in terms of getting you guys to do some diagnostics first and take it from there.
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  12. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    haha, well i'll be doing it/looking at it. :)
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  13. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jun 21, 2012]
    Haha good stuff, its a small world!
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  14. PAULF
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    PAULF Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2012]
    Good Luck!!

    Let us know how it turns out - it's good to get the ending for the next guy!
    #13
  15. Tom_B
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    Tom_B Member

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    [Jun 22, 2012]
    Is $670 for a timing belt and associated bits replacement a good benchmark for this job if I were to go for quotes from quality garages?

    For me this kind of investment would be a make or break point for a car that has done 142k and only cost me twice what replacing the timing belt would be! Ideally I would like to have a go myself but would need to observe/help somebody who was doing it and had the skills and experience.
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  16. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 22, 2012]
    While the belt may cost you a lot of money, surely the cost compared to the value of the car is somewhat irrelevant? Any car you buy is going to require maintenance, irrespective of its value, unless you only ever buy old smokers and run them into the ground.

    And sure, you could say its "old" and "not worth it" but is there really any more sense in buying a younger similar car for say 5 grand, losing a ton of money in depreciation, and still having to shell out similar money for repairs as and when they're required?

    I suspect you'll be able to get it done for less than 670 if you shop around, but ofcourse, dont skimp on parts. One way to reduce the impact would be to buy the belt kit, waterpump and other parts required over a few months, then you just have to pay for the labour when the job is done.
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  17. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Jun 22, 2012]
    ^^^Well said Kev ! You can spend the 5k on a lemon then you'll wish you fixed the car you knew ! I have seen it many times before, folks have trouble with the car, pay it off the credit card then they sell it to pay the debt off. They loose massively and someone else's will enjoy the car !
    As for the timing belt, shop around and you can get better value for money- £480 is my quote with everything you need included ! However i suggest to take the rocker covers off and check for broken followers/rocker arms and worn cams. Whilst the parts are not cheap- £500-700 for a full rebuild kit- the labor will be a substantial amount but it's easy to do at the same time with the cambelt.
    Also make sure it's not the pump at fault, the control unit is known to fail and will not inject fuel hence no starting ! Get someone with vag-com/VCDS to give it a scan then post the results here...

    Chris.
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  18. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2012]
    well its all tps parts going on it. think david quoted 220 labour. so the rest is parts and vat pretty much.

    i'll be checking it out with the kts650 or the vas5052 first. obviously if that shows up something as a cause of it not running then we'll look into it. yes i know about the pump ecus packing up.
    #17
  19. Tom_B
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    Tom_B Member

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    [Jun 22, 2012]
    Thanks both of you, I feel like I am really becoming part of the audi - sport.net community when I am getting properly told by the senior members. I entirely agree with both of you and firmly believe in properly maintaining a quality car especially when it has a few miles on it.
    #18
  20. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 22, 2012]
    when this happens to an '08 plate mk5 golf.....
    [​IMG]
    when it has less than 100k on it with a full service history and vw leave you to foot the bill.

    tell me wheres the advantage in owning a newer car??
    id rather pay to maintain an old audi such as yours. and thats the opinion of someone who's been working on these cars 5 days a week for 12 years!
    #19
  21. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jun 25, 2012]
    Cheers....it should be getting towed down to you for tomorrow lunchtime by the Twigg Brothers, as I work over near Nottingham I can't get there in the week (luckily also have a G60 Corrado to use :yes:).

    I booked it in for you guys to do some diagnosis first then see what works required...fingers crossed! Spoke with Rydal garage today (where its coming from) and they've left it part stripped so should save you some time - they said belt does have slack it in apparently. I was a bit dubious when they said they don't have the tools to continue but I'll let you judge for yourself!

    If you scan with vagcom or similar they'll probably be a MAF error code, as replaced the MAF a couple of month's back as had the issue of not revving over 3k up hill. Also bought an Innotec diesel turbo cleaner kit, not used it yet (think its still in the rear footwell!) so be intrigued to hear your opinion on those.

    Agree on looking after it - I've had much newer cars go wrong on me and for its age it's in great condition (ignoring the peeling alloys- these were next on the list!)
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
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  22. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 26, 2012]
    well i gather you spoke to david today?

    the water pump has collapsed and indeed the main cambelt was slack, enough for it to jump 2/3 teeth.
    ive stripped it down fitted a new genuine water pump then retimed it up using the correct tools and refitting the old belt. left the pump belt off, turned it over by hand and it was fine. span it over on the starter and it sounded normal.
    so then refitted the old pump belt etc, and it started first turn of the key!! sounding fine.
    i then stripped the old belt back off to wait for the new belt kit coming from tps tomorrow.

    ive also removed the rocker covers. the cams look in good condition, theres no rockers out of place etc. theres two camcover gaskets coming tomorrow to refit them.

    imo youve been very lucky it hasnt caught the valves.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
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  23. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jun 26, 2012]
    Hi mate yes I did indeed, was relieved to hear all is as good as it can be. Like you say seems I'm lucky that no other damage was done. Thanks for your efforts and the fuller update!
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  24. NineNails
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    NineNails Proud sponsor of the snack food industry

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    [Jun 26, 2012]
    I love a story with a happy ending :)
    #23
  25. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 26, 2012]
    mattupnorth, i think you should have a go on the lottery on saturday. see if your luck is still working?
    #24
  26. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 26, 2012]
    youd have thought so wouldnt you? well actually not really.... being that theyre obviously not familiar with these cars...... they had near enough completely stripped most things off the front panel with a view to completely removing it.
    whereas, id have just removed the bumper unbolted the front panel and put it into the service position (drop it forward 6-8 inches).

    but...... theyve removed both headlamps. unplugged all the wiring looms to the front panel. disconnected the top coolant hose, removed both air ducts to the intercoolers, unbolted the aircon rad to move it to one side etc.
    all of which i wouldnt have done, all of which i'll have to re-fit.... and being that we clock on and off jobs to show real labour times, you'll most likely get charged for.

    did david say the quote he gave had changed?
    as theres been a bit more checking, retiming, refitting, checking again etc.
    plus i wouldnt normally remove the rocker covers doing a routine cambelt change on one of these.... but as adamss24 said (and he looks to know these engines as well as i do!) its worth checking for peace of mind (esp. since the timings been thrown out).

    plus the extra refitting of stuff on the front panel.....

    id ring up if youve not heard from david by 3pm tomorrow.
    ask him for an update and re-estimate on cost, as the quote he gave would have been for a routine cambelt change.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
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  27. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jun 27, 2012]
    Cheers chap, been down in Milton Keynes for work so not had a chance. I'll ring in tomorrow, it'll probably be late Friday before I can make it down so no rush if it's not done yet.

    Jees yeah I did wonder why they'd taken so much off, rest assured I won't be taking it back there. Had an alright rep on the Sheffield forum as well...
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
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  28. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 28, 2012]
    well its all done.
    ive replaced all the injector spill pipes too as they were all tatty and rotten.

    rydell garage had also disconnected the powersteering cooler pipes so i had to refit them and refill the powersteering too.
    #27
  29. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jun 28, 2012]
    Cheers Murran, all seems good. My credit card took a beating but necessary by the sound of it with all the bits Rydal needlessly took off! FFS!

    Did you test drive it? Would be intrigued to know how the performance/power felt compared to other 2.5 TDI's you've no doubt test driven. I wondered if it wasn't putting out full boost so bought that turbo cleaning kit.
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  30. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jun 28, 2012]
    seems normal to me and a good engine to say its got a few miles on it.

    clutch is a little juddery and it needs tracking......

    im sure david will go thru what we did with it and show you the parts. the water pump was an exchange unit tho. so thats gone back with tps.

    think the rocker cover gaskets needed changing anyway as both sides were leaking, so its a good job theyve been changed.
    #29
  31. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jul 22, 2012]
    Well my luck didnt quite run out, got a new job at work with a company car, so a Golf GT is on its way! This is now on ebay if anyone's interested.
    #30
  32. murran
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    murran Active Member

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  33. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    Link here - It didn't sell so I've just re-listed it as a classified.

    I'll re-advertise on here in the proper section soon. Open to offers...be intrigued to know if people think I'm way off the money.
    #32
  34. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 23, 2012]
    christ it only managed 770? I'd have thaught it'd be worth at least a grand!
    #33
  35. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Aug 1, 2012]
    Went for just over a grand first time around, but was obviously hoping for a little more given what I've just spent on it! No back on ebay with no reserve as its costing me just to insure it! Ebay item 170889082945.

    Ironically still enjoying driving it despite having a new Tiguan hire car! A4 seems quicker than it used to be.
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  36. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Aug 4, 2012]
    its a good example yours given the recent cost to you of the water pump failure and repair/checks. youd be a fool to sell it so soon.

    could you not renegotiate your new job to not include a company car and get slightly more money insted? or at least sell the a4 to a family member?

    have you tracked it up and sorted the clutch yet? with those done it'd be a minter.

    fook me at 770 id buy it myself!!
    #35
  37. mattupnorth
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    mattupnorth Member

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    [Aug 4, 2012]
    Yeah have tried those options, if it was an estate my bro would have it. It is a shame but going for the company car as would rather not worry about any more problems given I do a lot of miles for work. It does mean someone will get a solid car and it does seem to be running better than ever! Clutch bite is still high, works ok when your used to it, can it be adjusted or would it be a new clutch job? Thanks again for your help with it Murran.
    #36

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