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6 inch subs??

Discussion in 'In-Car Entertainment' started by sharma, Mar 19, 2008.

  1. sharma
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    sharma Member

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    Hi all,

    I was looking at a set of two 6 inch subs to mount under my rear shelf. (Well not for me but for someone else). Its for theie mk4 golf. They do not want to loose any boot space but want to add some more bass to their car. They already have a set of components in the front and the back which give out some nice mid and treble.

    Firstly i was wondering if the subs would use the boot well or if i would be better off putting a box around each sub (joined onto the shelf). Also would i be better off sticking to the subs or buying a set of normal midrang/bass speakers which you get with a set of components and running pure bass out of them?? Obviously a seperate amp will be used for these subs.

    Also has anyone ever used 6 inch subs and does anyone know of any places which sell good 6 inch subs? Any info would be appreciated.

    Thanks.
    #1
  2. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The only 6" units available as far as I know are JL Audio 6W0-4's, which are fantastic units, but don't think they'd work that well on a removable parcel shelf. The rigidity and infinite baffle is crucial with any sub but even more so with small subs. A removable parcel shelf will not provide either.
    http://www.incarexpress.co.uk/view_product.php?partno=6W04
    #2
  3. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    there are quite a few companies which make 6" subwoofers (some even smaller) jl is the most common but dls and focal and rockford are the other noteable ones
    these small subs are designed to be put in an enclosure not run either free air or infinite baffle
    a parcel shelf is not really rigid enough to support one of these speakers without it vibrating badly at anything like realistic volume
    perhaps another option would be to have a wheelwell mounted enclosure
    such as the alpine or blaupunkt
    or if indeed he is good at diy then make one himself
    generally a larger single sub will sound better than two smaller ones
    #3
  4. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    DLS do 8" units , nothing at 6". Likewise for Rockford.
    Focal do a 5" but not a 6"
    So as stated earlier JL is pretty much the only option at that size.
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  5. alijames
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    alijames Active Member

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    AndyMac,

    Don't you mean 'the only DECENT option'?.

    I've seen a number of 'suppliers' selling 6" 'subs' which look as though they couldn't knock the skin of a rice pudding!!

    Cheers,
    #5
  6. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Absolutely, I've installed over 20 of the little JL units and they are unbelievable. I think people are put off by the conservative rating of 75wrms, but driven off a 200wrms amp and they just deliver, especially good in a really small enclosure.
    #6
  7. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    the dls 6" sub is called an RW6 and can be used either vented or sealed
    usually sold in pairs but can be bought as a single unit

    the rockford sub is no longer in production but was called a power 6 but was actually slightly bigger nearer 7 inches
    you may still be able to get it from online stores who sell end of line products

    focal have several options some of which are deleted some deleted but still available

    the focal 5ws is a 5" sub this has been deleted for quite some time but odd speakers and pairs do turn up n ebay reguarly
    the focal 13ks is the newer version of the 5ws (same cone differant surround better weather protection)
    both the above are 5" subs but certainly have the power of knock off the skin of a rice pudding
    the size of the woofer doesnt matter its the capability that does
    the focal 6" sub is a 165h (not the component) its actually listed as a home part AUDIO but presents a 4 ohm load again not very common but certainly worth the extra effort to track them down

    there is also a british company called elemental designs which have a 7kv woofer
    which is based upon the monacor raptor

    JL AUDIO IS CERTAINLY NOT THE ONLY OPTION
    #7
  8. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    So plenty of options that aren't 6" then, very helpful.
    I believe you can also get 8", 10" and 12" units as well.....
    #8
  9. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    the dls is 6"
    the focal is 6"
    ed audio is 6"
    http://www.edaudio.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=28

    how many more do you want ? you said earlier "as far as i know" theres little point in getting upset and attempting to write sarcasm when someone offers an alternative or knows a little more than you
    its not a competition andy stop being so competitive
    #9
  10. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    arn't the DLS intended to be more as speakers for the front rather than dedicated subs? There also seem to be a few shallow deapth subs starting to appear from Diamond/JL and image dynamics
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  11. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    no the dls speakers have been designed purposefully as minature subs
    allthough i do know someone using them for midbass and is getting quite good results

    there a lots of manufactures making shallow speakers for either midbass or subwoofer duties nowadays
    infinity made the first for cars about 15 years ago with something called "uniplane" brilliant idea but not very well concieved so the speaker couldnt really handle the frequencies at anything like realistic volume
    jl audio have a new woofer coming soon which should be interesting codenamed the zr8
    #11
  12. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    hmmmm so I could use the DLS subs, although are the best results from ported enclosures ?
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  13. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    all depends on what you want steve
    location and how well they will be installed is the most important factor
    cubby hole in boot ? front passenger footwell ? there are lots of places to install them but some are more suited to certain speakers
    for something thats musical with all genres of music id stick with a sealed enclosure in the boot ported enclosures tend to emphasise a certain frequency so as you get a lot louder at one particular spot this does tend to suit certain types of music but others it simply kills stone dead
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  14. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    The intention was an 8" sub in the same position as the BOSE sub, although I would make a box myself. Ideally I would go for a 10" but I don't think i'll get a small enough box in there. I was looking at Hertz, Diamond & JL.
    #14
  15. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    ok so ideally you would like to keep as much space as possible in the boot
    whilst making the best use of the available space behind the cubby hole panel for whichever woofer you decide ?

    the size of the enclosure unfortunatly has a great deal of influence on the end product the bigger the volume of air inside gives you more and more options it can also aletr the sound drastically by putting the wrong woofer in the wrong sized box or vive versa you can end up with horrific results
    if you can give me a rough size the final enclosure size will be? (outside dimensions) i can work it out for you and reccomend a woofer which will not only fit the box, but also sound good as well

    if also you dont mind using secondhand equipment there is a lot of older equipment which in some cases is actually better suited and sounds better than newer equipment
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  16. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    second hand isn't a problem, i'll let you know once i've got to the position where I am ready to start on the install :)
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  17. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    there is a possibility if the enclosure is large enough volume wise
    you may be able too squeeze a 10" sub called an "aliante"
    it was originally made by a company called phase linear whom are very very well known in home hifi circles this then went onto phase evolution and the woofer is now made by a company called mac audio
    http://www.mac-audio.de/produkte/produkte_detail.asp?grp=6&ser=184&nr=1612010&lang=EN

    they did originally do a 8" version which would have been ideal but it has long since been deleted and is a very very rare piece of car hifi kit nowadays so when one does come up on ebay it fetches a premium
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  18. gg9485
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    gg9485 Member

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    I'm looking at something similar, but instead of putting the subs in the parcel shelf I was considering putting a sub in each rear door, i have a A3 sportback, would the rear doors work as an enclosure of sorts?
    #18
  19. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    yes this most certainly would work on any audi model provided its possible to fit a large enough speaker (some audis only have small speakers in rear )
    however its not just a simple matter of putting in new speakers this method does have disadvantages

    you would have to do a little bit of work with sound deadening or the door would rattle horendously
    if you installed a pair of woofers it would not sound as good as a single speaker because of phase and timing differances between the speakers
    and possible cancellation between the speakers
    you would also have to think about wiring the speakers which may not be as easy as you think the tweets will require dissconnecting and there maybe in line filters allready installed in the audi wiring which you would certainly want to avoid
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  20. gg9485
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    gg9485 Member

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    Sound deadining is easy enough, tweeters have already been removed.

    the standard speakers are 6.5" in the rear so plenty big enough, only problem maybe the depth!

    I have already ran wiring from the boot (amp) to the rear doors.

    Nice to know it will work, saves taking up my boot witha bulky sub box
    #20
  21. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    if you can tell me the maximum depth i could probably find you a suitable speaker or speakers which would fit and serve the purpose properly
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  22. gg9485
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    gg9485 Member

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    I think max depth without measuring is 3.5" or there abouts, so 3" just to be on the safe side would be good, however I think that is asking a bit much.

    I don't want loads of bass but i do want to be able to hear/feel it
    #22
  23. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    it wold be better to measure it accurately as i dont want to reccomend somethng and then you not be able to fit it
    you may also have some extra space by mounting the speaker onto a baffle instead of a directly to the metal
    if you can mount an 18mm baffle it should give you at least another 15mm of depth which may not sound a lot but it may make the differance your after
    #23
  24. gg9485
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    gg9485 Member

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    Yeah I need to measure it but that is just a rough idea, that is pretty much the depth of the baffle I would use, I know I have an extra 3" between the two door skins but I need to see if the window glass gets in the way, if not then I have plenty of depth.

    Will the door have enough volume to act as the enclosure or will it be too much, I'm worried about the door vibrating if I do put a sub in there.
    #24
  25. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    your door will have plenty of volume
    there are a few things which you can do to get the absoloubt best from this type of installation

    use good quality sound deadening such as dynamatt extreme , skinz or the cheapest option which is ivanhoe NOT ALL SOUND DEADENING PRODUCTS ARE THE SAME
    http://www.fourcars.co.uk/skinz.html
    http://www.dynamat.com/products_car_audio_trunk_kit.html

    i would reccomend using the wave diffuser by skinz behind the speakers it is an excellant product as is the weather protection system to protect expensive speakers

    wipe clean the panels with an alcohol wipe or panel wipe to remove grease and grime measure or mark up a piece and cut it to size then warm it using a heatgun and apply with a roller to evenly distribute pressure upon the material
    once you have done the outer skin deaden the inner skin as well if it has one (some audis dont have inner skins)
    the aim here is to seal the door and stop any air from the back of the speaker interacting with the sound from the front of the speaker THIS IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT and when done correctly makes a huge differance
    #25
  26. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    the driver i would reccomend is the elemental designs but the mounting depth is around 3.5" and the magnet diameter is allmost 5"
    so a little measuring would be need to check to see if it will fit or not
    if not there are other options

    one final thing i forgot to mention when running an install of this type a subsonic filter would be a very very good idea
    #26
  27. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Have a look at this link for an excellent write-up by GTi-Jazz.
    IIRC all Audi doors now are of the inner skin design with quite a small hole (about 3") for the speaker magnet and rely on the spacer ring to provide the required depth. While this is OK for most components you will struggle to mount a sub in this way due to the magnet size. Also you can't access the outer skin to sound deaden it, so only the inner skin itself can be deadened. The other issue will be leakage between the front of the sub and the door card. It will be impossible to get an airtight seal around the sub when you refit the door card so I can only imagine it will vibrate quite a bit. So you'll need to deaden the door card as well and just hope for a tight fit. Personally I'd fabricate a sub enclosure from 18mm MDF to replace the factory tupperware unit and fit an 8" unit in there and just use normal components for the doors.
    Subs are not designed to be door mounted and as the mounting/enclosure is critical to any sub you'd be far better off spending your time building a proper stealth enclosure for the rear quarter.
    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?t=40815&highlight=56k picture warning
    #27
  28. gg9485
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    gg9485 Member

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    So the door card will vibrate a fair bit as I suspected!

    Well the other option was to try my hand at making a fiberglass enclosure to fit my sub, the only reason I was looking at the subs in doors idea is because it will save me a lot of time and work.

    If I had an 8L i would certainly be talking to you about your MDF boxes and I take it no one has leant you their 8P a3 so you can make one for that lol

    I just lack the time, locationa nd expertise to make my own enclosure
    #28
  29. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes exactly, I made the 8L version because we had an 8L A3. As you can imagine I'd need a donor 8P for probably a day or so to get the design right as it's not as simple as just fabricating a replica of the tupperware box.
    I wouldn't use fibreglass either as it's a pretty poor performer compared to MDF, and with an enclosure so small it needs to be rock solid to sound decent. I've tired the fibreglass stealth enclosure Auto Acoustics do for the B5 A4 and it sucks big time.
    I just think you'll still spend a day or so fitting subs to the rear doors and possibly not getting the result you want, when that time could be better spent on a stealth enclosure knowing it will deliver.
    #29
  30. gg9485
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    gg9485 Member

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    Where abouts are you located?

    The plus side of using fiberglass is that it can be moulded to the shape of the car so basically making better use of the space! I don't mind the enclosure protruding in to the boot space a bit, I just don't want it to impede on it to much.

    Somethink like this http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=2134080&page=4 (about half way down the page) would be ideal.
    #30
  31. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    "The other issue will be leakage between the front of the sub and the door card. It will be impossible to get an airtight seal around the sub when you refit the door card so I can only imagine it will vibrate quite a bit."

    andy you do not need an airtight seal between the front of the sub and the doorcard the sound is about to travel through a big hole so why would it have to be airtight ?what you must do is seal the front of the speaker from the backwave in the enclosure so they cannot interact
    as for the doorcards you may well get rattles but the way to get round this is either a layer 2-3mm of foam glued to the inner part of the door card or soft material such as box carpet
    dynamatting the doorcard will not solve the problem as the frequencies simply transfer from one part of the door to the card

    Personally I'd fabricate a sub enclosure from 18mm MDF to replace the factory tupperware unit and fit an 8" unit in there and just use normal components for the doors.
    yes so would i it is the best option by far, a far better idea than using the
    rear doors as enclosures but id look at other options for the driver

    "Subs are not designed to be door mounted "
    im afraid thats innacurate car audio speaker manufacturers spend more money on research of speakers playing in doors than they do anywhere else in the devolpment of any speaker system as this is the most likely place they will be installed and used
    its certainly true that not all speakers suit an audi a3 but manufacturers must take a little more than this into account when designing a speaker
    #31
  32. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    I wouldn't use fibreglass either as it's a pretty poor performer compared to MDF, and with an enclosure so small it needs to be rock solid to sound decent. I've tired the fibreglass stealth enclosure Auto Acoustics do for the B5 A4 and it sucks big time.

    fibreglass actually performs better than mdf in an enclosure
    mdf is porous and even when sealed at the edges still leaks air its has to be sealed with paint to make it seal correctly
    fibreglass is denser than mdf so doesnt resonate at higher frequencies like mdf does
    the auto acoustics boxes are very poor but thats because they only use a very thin layer of fibreglass instead of using the equavalent thickness in fibreglass
    #32
  33. gg9485
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    gg9485 Member

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    What do you recommend would be the best thickness of fibreglass to use?
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  34. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    "fibreglass is denser than mdf so doesnt resonate at higher frequencies like mdf does" - no it just resonates at every other lower frequency like a bastard. Not familiar with too many subs that operate at high frequencies.
    I guess that's why the best sound systems in the world all use fibreglass. Oh yes that's right, none of them do they all use MDF or marine ply. I wonder why?
    #34
  35. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    for the same thickness of material
    fibreglass is denser than mdf and therefore resonates at a lower frequency than mdf
    if a material is denser then it also provides more mass which is exactly what you want in any system reproducing sub bass
    when fibreglass is used it resonates at such a low frequency it cannot be heard by the average persons hearing
    when mdf is used it is possible to hear the resonance of lower notes higher up in the frequency range

    there is one reason and one reason alone why mdf is used above fibreglass it is TEN TIMES cheaper
    as for mdf used in the top speaker systems in the world
    i doubt anyone who owns a pair of these http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk/display.aspx?infid=1457 agrees with your statement

    a world famous design which is known for having the least cabinet resonance and colouration of any speaker in the world
    #35
  36. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes very nice, but I wasn't talking about home HiFi. Home HiFi bears little, if any, relation to InCar HiFi. Those speakers would sound shyte in a car.
    I was referring to high power commercial sound systems, which have to deal with a very acoustically unfriendly environment, far more akin to that of a car.
    The best PA system in the world used to be owned & used by a band called Leftfield. No fibreglass in sight.
    Over the years people have tried all sorts of different materials from concrete to plastics but it always comes back to wood derivatives, not just because of cost, but because it provides the best compromise in performance, rigidity & practicality. Yes, you might get the same performance from an enclosure made from 25 layers of fibreglass but that would destroy the whole point of using it as it would eat up the space you orginally wanted to save. Likewise, in a car there are so many resonances & noises compromising sound quality that a lot of the HiFi theory goes out the window. You need a lot of power and a bullet proof enclosure for the sub, heavily anchored to the chassis of the car. The easiest way to do this is to use MDF. Use fibreglass even with a lot of layers and you don't get the rigidity or the weight to get the best out of the sub. You also have issues with anchoring it properly to the car and vibration issues where it meets the bodywork.
    #36
  37. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    if you were making a fibreglass back to fit the left hand side cubby
    of the a3 it would want to be 1/2 the thickness of the equalivalent mdf
    so if you made and 18mm mdf construction which is the miniumum i personally would use you would only need a 9mm thick fibreglass enclosure

    when i have chance i will write a step by step complete guide on how to make a fibreglass mould for any of the audi,s to enable anyone to make there own enclosure

    since when has any pa system in the world been comparable to either a home or car audio system as regards sound quality ?
    its designed for three things LOUD very efficient and rugid
    loud so it can play to lots of people
    very effiecient so as it takes very little power to become very loud
    and rugid so as it can be shipped from one venue to the next by hap handed roadies
    sound quality is bottom of the list as the actual venue makes 100 times more differance than anything else

    fibreglass comes in a resin form and when the casting agent is added it literally forms to the exact shape of whatever you want to cast
    when making a fibreglass mould it is NOT made from solid fibreglass a layer of fibrglass matt is first added and then this is painted with resin between each layer of fibreglass resin spongy material is added which then expands and soaks up twice the normal amount of resin this acts exactly like plywood as in each layer re-inforces the next which is why you only need 1/2 the thickness of mdf to get the same mass and rigidity of an mdf enclosure
    an mdf enclosure takes more space as it cannot be moulded to take benefit of all the available airspace you simply cannot do this with mdf
    you are correct in saying that a good subbass system has a very solid anchoring point and lots of contact so how do you get better than something which is touching the car body at every point ???
    its obvious andy you had a bad experiance with the auto acoustics box
    and i agree it does sound diabolicle but this is because it is not made correctly in the first place it is simply resin painted onto a fleece like material which is nowhere near strong enough for a subwoofer enclosure
    when done correctly a fibreglass box is much much better as an enclosure material than mdf the only downside to it is cost and how messy it is to do

    here are a couple of pictures of my old install in my seat leon this again
    used a fibrglass enclosure which was moulded to the exact shape of the car it used a 9mm thick moulded back piece which was then painted to match the car with a 30mm plexiglass perspex front which was machined for the subwoofer
    bottom left picture of about the third or fourth page blue seat leon
    http://www.iascauk.com/photos/euros05.html
    #37
  38. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    You obviously haven't heard Leftfields PA system!

    I'll concede that if one is made correctly by professionals (not auto acoustics) and the right amount of layers are used and it moulds to the bodywork perfectly with no gaps (which you'd soon realise is impossible if you've ever had a look at the cubbyhole minus stock sub)and is secured properly to the car then you could get a reasonable result. But back in the real world someone having a stab at it for the first time is going to get a crap result.
    MDF is a lot easier to use, anyone can build a half decent box and the result will be far more predictable.
    #38
  39. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    mdf is a lot easier to work with than fibreglass a little wood dust is easy to clean up spill fibreglass and its not so easy to clean
    ill write the guide later to show you how easy it is to get good results
    making anything from fibreglass is no harder to do than paint a wall
    as all you are effectively doing is painting resin onto a material which then becomes wet and pliable and then forms perfectly round whatever shape
    the hard bit in fibrglassing is actually the preperation to make sure you dont spill any on the car

    for anyone prepared to put the time and effort in it will aid to achieving maximum possible performance form any sub bass system
    this is basically how all competiton cars are built
    #39
  40. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Active Member

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    andy just as a sidenote what is the airspace volume of the box you make for the a3 ?
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