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280 BHP for my S3 please!

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by S3Si, Apr 2, 2004.

  1. S3Si
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    S3Si Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Hello all, am new to the forum thing, so please be patient! Tried a post on tyresmoke but had one reply! As i said there, i know you have all answered this sort of question before but have spent a few hours searching on the forum and haven't really got anyway. Would really appreciate it if just a few people could reply and then i'll go away!

    To the point, i want to mod a 210 Bhp S3 using simple mods that aren't really going to add too much stress, except for resulting 280BHP! Such as more freely flowing pipes around the engine, ie more air intake pipes and out. Are there any panel filter replacements that are any good or do i have to go for an actual induction kit. And i've read a lot about APR and AMD, but what about MTM and REVO, are they no good, do people have problems with them? And finally is there a group buy at the mo or planned in the next few months.

    I really do appreciate it if only a couple reply, thanks.

    PS any really first class tinting specialists around the wiltshire area, willing to travel about a 100miles. Oh yeah, am up at 6.30 in the morn coz i'm well excited about getting the car!! sad i know...
    #1
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  3. audidude
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    audidude New Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    man - you are a sad case - excited about getting an S3??

    Guess that makes 2 of us /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Modding an S3 is a LOT of fun and VERY rewarding.

    250-260hp is easy but the jump to the next level is more involved and a lot more expensive.

    The short answer is chip it, chip it, chip it.

    that gets you to 250-260 and pretty much any of the reputable suppliers will do it. You will get a confusing array of recommendations as to which chip - look locally for a well supported product. Others here can probably help you on this specific.

    Personally I wouldn't jump to the next level as the cost of a turbo/inlet/exhaust upgrade is huge and the performance gain not in proportion.

    Hope this helps and good luck and welcome

    Cheers
    #2
  4. cyuen
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    cyuen Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Audidude, my car is nearly ready :p hehe little bit more HP than urs hehe
    #3
  5. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Yeah, but the "Dude" has an Oettinger map, so the name alone should be worth an extra 10hp /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
    #4
  6. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Whoa Si, looks like your post at TSN got overlooked for others /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I don't have an S3, but my A3 TQ has been chipped by Oettinger and it made a HUGE difference If you live semi-close to AMD try dropping by and talking to their reps. From what I've heard, they offer great customer service. They ALSO have an option where they will dyno your car during the remap process and tweak their program in order to get the full benefits

    Other than that, as mentioned, I have the Oettinger remap and one thing I'll say about it is, it's SMOOTH no big kick in the pants, the powers there, but you don't really feel it until you look at the speedo

    Hope it helps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #5
  7. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Hi S3, and welcome to AS.net.

    It's relatively easy to get up to about 260/270bhp with a chip alone but getting that extra 10/20bhp that you want is a little trickier and more expensive.

    Some tuners advertise that you can get and extra 10-12bhp extra on top of the chip by fitting a full stainless steel exhaust and sports cat. Howvever, some argue that the actual benefit is minimal if anything at all. Other things you can do is to fit a front mounted intercooler (FMIC) however this increases torque rather than bhp.

    You will be very lucky to get 275bhp+ because the standard injectors at that level are maxed out. If you want more power than that you'll have to befriend your bank manager for a hybrid turbo, new injector system and manifold etc.

    The jump from 210bhp to something like 260/270bhp is amazing. But after a while you always crave for more!

    BTW - why do you have this figure of 280bhp in you head?
    #6
  8. audidude
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    audidude New Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Don't forget torque either.

    210hp engine has 270NM and 225 has 280NM. Chipped you will get 350-370NM - the differnce is stunning - grin from ear to ear when first experienced - "is this MY car!!"

    OK we can never have enough but I am very happy with the sting in my Oettingered baby - yes Drill: Oettinger rules /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Cyuen - an extra few HP can be easily neutered by a better driver - we must meet at the track /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    Cheers
    #7
  9. jpeterman
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    jpeterman New Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    I too have the 210bhp S3.

    I got the AMD stage 1 ECU remap done a couple of weeks ago now, and they got it up to 278 bhp with the standard work.
    The pre-upgrade tests revealled the car was already running at 234 bhp, which apparently is not uncommon.
    The increase makes an awful lot of difference, esepcially in the 40-100mph range, and would recommend AMD highly.
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  10. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    J Peterman said:
    I too have the 210bhp S3.

    I got the AMD stage 1 ECU remap done a couple of weeks ago now, and they got it up to 278 bhp with the standard work.
    The pre-upgrade tests revealled the car was already running at 234 bhp, which apparently is not uncommon.
    The increase makes an awful lot of difference, esepcially in the 40-100mph range, and would recommend AMD highly.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    What was you torque figure before and after your remap?
    #9
  11. garethj
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    garethj Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Not uncommon if your rollers are incorrectly calibrated.
    #10
  12. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Well I think the tuning front has just about been covered, but in all honesty to see a geniune 280hp you'll be looking at a whole lot more than just a chip. If it was me I'd probably look at a turbo upgrade for good figures and faultless running.

    On the tints front I suggest you take a look at the following notice from Pentagon glass which relates to changes in the UK law regarding tints....which is not just applicable to Pentagon but all tinting companies.
    #11
  13. S3Si
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    S3Si Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Thanks for all the replies people, in answer to imola S3, it was just a figure i though might be achievable through a chip and just some basic tweaking, but it sounds like a figure of 260 is more likely. I basically just want to get it chipped, get a decent panel filter and possibly change the inlet and outlet hose to get the air moving faster, nothing too serious or expensive. Just wondered if there some tried and tested components/makes for this?

    Do people not rate revo or mtm on this forum then, can't really find any opinions on these two, just asking...

    thanks again and if i could have a bit more info on the group buy i would be eternally gratefully!
    #12
  14. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Be careful with the oiled panel filter as a lot of people have reported it to make the MAF fail. I replace my paper one every 5000 miles or so because of this.
    #13
  15. garethj
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    garethj Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    MTM are excellent but they are expensive and there is only one dealer in the UK. The bias on here tends to be towards AMD for obvious reasons. APR (Star Performance / Awesome GTI) also get some coverage mainly because they offer good service and happen to be near to some of the more active members. Revo I am not sure of, take a look at their own forum, there tend to be a lot of posts by users who have problems. That said none of the other tuners have their own official forum.
    #14
  16. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    J Peterman said:
    I too have the 210bhp S3.

    I got the AMD stage 1 ECU remap done a couple of weeks ago now, and they got it up to 278 bhp with the standard work.
    The pre-upgrade tests revealled the car was already running at 234 bhp, which apparently is not uncommon.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    With what other modifications, may I ask?

    Because to be honest, I don't believe it.
    There is no way you will get 278BHP from an otherwise standard S3...and your original power of 234 is also way out.
    I have never seen standard 210 show anything more than 218 on any other rolling road other than AmDs.

    There are quite a few people on here with 'big' power figures and dyno graphs to back them up. My advice is not to get involved with people who have similasr - or slightly less 'big' figures on other rolling roads...as you may come away dissapointed.


    You cannot get 280BHP from a standard turbo, standard injectors, standard downpipes and modified ECU...it just can't happen.
    You simply can't move enough air through the turbo at high revs to make the boost required to make 280BHP...no matter what you do with intercoolers, airboxes etc...if just can't happen.
    Nor will you be able to correctly fuel the air even if you could force it through the turbo.

    You can't even keep adding ignition advance to gain BHP either...you'll run out of range on the ECU or blow the motor trying.

    Realistically, 260BHP is a damn good figure from a 1.8T S3 engine.
    270BHP is a great output...and requires a lot of other modification to safely run it.
    275 BHP is achievable with modified airbox, cats, exhaust, turbo hoses, FMIC, aggressive re-map...and lots of boost, but the turbo won't last long..and you are getting VERY close to con-rod bending teritory on peak boost!
    I just don't see 280BHP being achivable...not an honest 280BHP anyway.

    To get that you would have to be running 1.35-1.40 bar of boost at 6000RPM!! Most chips don't even provide that at peak torque (3500 ish)


    I'd be interested to see what AmD show for your max torque value?
    And at what boost?

    In the past I've seen values of 300lb-ft shown from an AmD dyno for under1.3 bar of boost...well, I'm sorry, but it takes about 1.6 bar peak to break 300lb-ft genuine...
    And 1.85 to get 330 lb-ft...

    ..and running at 1.85 bar and over (yes, I've been there) I had to agree that if the con rods went the way of the pear on the rollers, the dyno operator would not be liable for the repair.
    Scary stuff...
    #15
  17. garethj
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    garethj Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Measurement of HP/Torque at the wheels is usually accurate, unfortunately this is then translated to flywheel figures which are frankly rubbish in some cases.

    No customer is going to complain if you tell them their car is producing more power than it actually is. 234hp from a 210hp car is laughable but does give you an idea of the level of inaccuracy.
    #16
  18. jpeterman
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    jpeterman New Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Oh dear - I seem to have provoked a techie onslaught.

    I am sorry, I only got my S3 seen to because my neighbour's Porsche 928 GTS V8 could still run rings around it.

    It was of great amusement to me that a measly 1.8 engine could be tweaked sufficiently to reverse this situation; and my back end does not end up in the weeds nearly so much as the Porsche does. I guess this has something to do with not quite Audi 4WD.

    I am afraid I do not quite know what torque is, although the AmD printout quotes 278.9lb ft at 3460 Rpm. I am assuming this means something to someone, but for me it means fun, fun, fun, three points every year, and outrageous insurance premiums.
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  19. garethj
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    garethj Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    JP you have the right attitude, it doesn't matter what the figures say, it's whether or not you enjoy driving the car.

    The danger with inflated figures is that people get too hung up on peak bhp without any understanding of what it means and how torque distribution impacts it. Tuners who pander to the peak bhp seekers tend to produce maps which suffer lower down the torque curve.
    #18
  20. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    ess three ,
    I find your comments interesting,i too have had a similar discussion about s3 tuning on another audi based forum and agree about your comments on the maximum power that can be attained with a stock s3.
    I am due to have my car revo'd in 2 weeks time by a very well respected tuner.What sort of figures do you think i'm looking at;
    210hp s3
    fmic
    forge DV
    Samco hosing
    I suspect around 260bhp and around 300lb/t,would you agree?
    #19
  21. nradfo01
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    nradfo01 New Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]

    Ryan,

    I think I saw your post on the UK MKIVs forum ? I forgot to mention in my post on there (user- nradfo01) that I have also got the Forge DV006 Piston Ram Closed Loop Diverter Valve (phew!) installed. Made bugger all difference, if I'm being honest, but looks nice and shiny! All it has done is make the car slightly more responsive, but not much. Everyone on the other forum seems to rave about AMD Viper DV's. Give that a try.

    You may get towards your 300lbft with the SPS3 set to timing 7 and boost 9 with optimax in use, but its not recommended by my Revo dealer for long term road usage, but then you can see my post there for all that info :-

    http://www.uk-mkivs.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27587

    (I only mention it again for the benefit of those having not seen it)

    Does anyone know if the AMD software is best not set too high without other mods to help the motor survive ?




    #20
  22. ADD
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    ADD New Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    Out of interest, what sort of performance increase to you get from chipped S3 with 260bhp?

    0-60? (standard 6.6 seconds)
    0-100? (standard 16.4 seconds)
    1/4 Mile? (standard 14.7 seconds)
    30-70? (standard 6.2 seconds)
    #21
  23. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 2, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    J Peterman said:

    I am afraid I do not quite know what torque is, although the AmD printout quotes 278.9lb ft at 3460 Rpm. I am assuming this means something to someone, but for me it means fun, fun, fun, three points every year, and outrageous insurance premiums.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    J Peterman,
    I applaud your attitude...very refreshing to see someone not hung up on peak numbers.

    Let me buy you an internet beer! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #22
  24. JamesA3
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    JamesA3 Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    I'm guessing you have seen the video with the S3 keeping pace with the 355, I assumed the S3 would be putting out around 350bhp but it would appear thats not the case.
    #23
  25. bigmoose
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    bigmoose Member

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    So what do MTM do to get 269bhp then as that is the upgrade that I have on my car.

    I didn't upgrade it
    #24
  26. dickys3
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    dickys3 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 3, 2004]
    For 269bhp thats a remap and Stainless Exhaust from Middle Section to Back box.
    #25
  27. nradfo01
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    nradfo01 New Member

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    [Apr 5, 2004]

    Ess-Three (or anyone really!),

    Do you know if there is a formula for calculating BHP from a Torque and RPM figure ? I read with interest your comments on BHP etc from earlier in this discussion but whilst I am seeing 172lbft (REVO:- low boost 9, timing 6, no additional hi boost set). I'm not entirely sure how to get a BHP figure (other than the RR).

    As you said, its best not to get hung up on figures, but its nice to know all the same!

    The car feels great and goes like hell!


    cheers,

    Andy

    #26
  28. nradfo01
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    nradfo01 New Member

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    [Apr 5, 2004]


    Cheers Gambba!

    Ref the DV, the Forge DV006 started to stick at the weekend for the first time. Seems true-to-form for these units. I've gone back to my standard Bosch item and all is well. Again, I've notice no difference whatsoever so it seems even the responsiveness that I reported as being slightly improved, is not noticeable now the car is Revo'd (or it was all in my head to justify the £85 that it cost for the Forge DV!). Think I'll just clean it out, and bung it on Ebay!


    cheers,

    Andy
    #27
  29. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    [Apr 5, 2004]
    Sorry Daniel, I can't remember where, but I spotted something saying that, in fact, the "N" revision has a stronger spring than the RS6's "P" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif IIRC the "N" valve has a 14.4 lb spring and the "P" something 9 or 10 lbs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    I HAD done a comparison between the 3 (std, "N" and "P") but never got around to finishing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #28
  30. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Apr 5, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Drill said:
    Sorry Daniel, I can't remember where, but I spotted something saying that, in fact, the "N" revision has a stronger spring than the RS6's "P" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif IIRC the "N" valve has a 14.4 lb spring and the "P" something 9 or 10 lbs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    I HAD done a comparison between the 3 (std, "N" and "P") but never got around to finishing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well there we have it.

    Cheers for the catch Michael, even though it was you that deceived me in the first place /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #29
  31. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Apr 5, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Drill said:
    It's not deception if it was in ignorance /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    But I'll try to remember where I found that info though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Oh the classic plead of ignorance /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
    #30

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