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210 and 225 S3

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by jdas03, Jul 27, 2009.

  1. jdas03
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    jdas03 Member

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    Hi,

    Just a random thought that came to mind when i was bored at work today...
    I was thinking about the 2 versions of the s3, 210 and 225. What are the actual differences in the engine, i mean how does one have more power? only thought this because everyone says if you get them remapped they produce same power. Are they exactly the same engine but Audi changed the mapping as standard in the later cars? if so is there any way to get a standard update?

    Cheers
    #1
  2. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    I presume its just remapped up to 225 amognst other changes visually i think. they remap to same bhp in the end thouugh.
    #2
  3. Dansmith
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    Dansmith Member

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    im pretty sure there is something to do with the fuel pump also, if you re-map a 210 they reccomend that you uprate this to cope while you don't have to with the 225
    #3
  4. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    Never heard of that before!
    Just do a search pal its bin covered quite often.
    #4
  5. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Engine Diffrences:
    210 is an AMK Engine code, 225 is BAM.

    210bhp/199lbft vs 225ps/208lbft. Both cars remap to practically the same. The 210 is actually 212ps, and the 225(ps) is actually 222bhp.

    ECU Code for the 225 has an “A” on the end.

    There were always rumours that the 210 had stronger internals (20mm wrist pins and different rods), but it seems that this rumour stemmed from the early Audi S3 APY engine (also 210bhp) having stronger rods. However, Yumann's engine (AMK) build thread, he kindly measured the gudgeon pins for us, and they are 20mm. The later BAM engine are supposed to have 19mm wrist pins.

    From ETOS and ETKA the block and piston set for AMK :06A 103 101 J and for the BAM : 06A 103 101 J, conrod for AMK : 027 198 401 B, conrod for BAM : 027 198 401 B. So if they are different, nobody told SEAT Parts.

    Both engines have VVT, but this is apparently for emissions rather than a VTEC style torque/power shift. Although most cars definitely pull again at about 4,000 rpm). Originally we thought the VVT actuation was different (one mechanical the other hydraulic) but we now understand them to be the same. Again, it is the APY (early 210 S3 engine, never fitted to the LCR) that has mechanical VVT actuation and possibly where the rumour started. Both AMK and BAM have Electro-hydraulic VVT actuation.

    The turbo (K04-23 from Borg-Warner), manifold & exhaust are all the same.

    Been searching, thamks to our friends in the TT and Audi world, it seems that it's the early S3 210 engine, coded APY had the mechanical VVT and 20mm gudgeon pins.

    Also, it seems the AMK and BAM have a valve that "electrically allows oil pressure from the oil pump to adjust the cam timing on the inlet camshaft". Sounds Hydraulic to me, but some people refer to it as electrical.

    APY was the early S3 engine (210), followed by the "Facelift" engine (there was a facelifted S3) which was the AMK, later a further engine, the BAM was introduced. There seems to be a few other differences between the APY and the later engines - it seems mostly emissions stuff, extra lambda sensors, a change from the K04-20 to the K04-23 (which is essentially the same, but has an extra sensor) and the switch from Mechanical to Hydraulic/electrical VVT actuation all related to control, and perhaps larger injectors on the AMK/BAM. It seems the ECU changed to the me7.5 on the AMK/BAM

    So, it seems there's no fundamental difference between the AMK and BAM engines
    #5
  6. omegadirective
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    omegadirective Member

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    The 210 BHP S3 was produced so that it wasn't in direct competition with the TT, being slightly less powerful.

    Audi cottoned onto the fact this didn't make much difference to the people buying the car and that led them to revise the S3 with the facelift versions and produce the 225BHP S3.

    Not much difference really considering much of the internals are the same on both versions of the S3 and the S3/TT.

    They are essential the same and I believe the only major difference is the map which produces a little bit more power and torque. The 210 was a "detuned" version" like I said, so it wasn't in direct competition with the TT. Most stupid decision Audi made with the S3 I think...

    I prefer the facelifted S3 as it looks better, has a better interior. Subtle styling differences. The pre-facelift version can be bought for a lot cheaper.
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  7. jdas03
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    jdas03 Member

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    Thanks for that, so if its a matter of mapping would Audi remap a 210 s3 to match the 225 as a kind of software update or would it have to be done through external tuners? i have the facelifted model on a 51 plate, but havent had the time to check the engine code yet. I thought all were 225bhp with face lift! how wrong was i! The car itself is fast enough regardless what engine it has, but i know id be just a little dissapointed if i found i had the less powerful one!
    #7
  8. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    You'll have the amk one but it its easy enough to find out, when lokking at the engine head on, look to the left of the engine near the charge pipe and just move slightly down to the fron of the block on a little metal plate it'll be stamped, apy, amk or bam but itll be amk.
    As for audi mapping them to the same i wouldnt hold your breath of waste your money, if it's bothering you that much just take it to a tuner mate and get it remapped properly :)
    #8
  9. jdas03
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    jdas03 Member

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    cheers for telling me, its a pretty quick car anyway. But wouldnt mind the extra power, just the insurance! they rip me off enough as it is! if i were to get a remap think the price would go through the roof! How does the remap affect the performance anyway, is it noticeably quicker? and where do you find the extra pace? only other thing i worry about with remaps i s knackering the engine that much quicker and fuel economy! would have to think long and hard about it i reckon!
    #9
  10. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    Tbh insurance is the only real thing stopping me getting mine mapped, i get raped with being 20 now so would hate to think what it would be like. Alot of people say the difference is like day and night but i havent been in a maped s3 yet, still waiting for tim haha, from what ive heard the fuel economy improves on normal driving but goes down quicker when booting it.
    #10
  11. jdas03
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    jdas03 Member

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    yer me too, im 21, only got my s3 the other week! my problem is i have zero no claims as been a named driver for 2 years on a punto! now got this and paying 2.5k!! cant afford any more! how much you paying if you dont mind me asking? very very tempted to get a remap, have the money for it, just not for the insurance... can imagine with the extra bhp it must be one of the quickest hatches on the road!
    #11
  12. ianysm
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    ianysm Active Member

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    I'd recommend the remap. I too have a 51 plate facelift S3 but it was advertised as a 225 and i assumed they were all 225's after 2001. I was wrong as mine was indeed the 210 AMK. (i read in a magazine that they revised some suspension settings on the 225 model aswell??).

    Anyway, mine's now remapped and the difference is amazing. But then another 50bhp and (more importantly) 50-60lb/ft torque will make alot of difference. I only paid £350 from JBS and its the best performance per pound easily!

    Insurance shouldn't ever find out its been done, but you are best telling them. It adds another £200 to mine though!
    #12
  13. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    Haha same thing happened to me, bought mine under the impression its was a 225 but turned out it's a 210 apy.

    My insurance is £2700 TPFT, now thats expensive.
    #13
  14. omegadirective
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    omegadirective Member

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    Wow, lads, I'm 21 and got mine for £700 with 3 yrs ncb, now after a small accident with a wall on a busy street I have 1 yrs ncb and I still only have £1200 insurance cost fully comp and business mileage.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
    #14
  15. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    Who the hell are you with? You got a tracker fitted or what?
    #15
  16. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    im only 20 and my insurance only cost 1500 fully comp with 3yrs ncb. but next year its going to be roughly 700 when im 21. as it drops in price at that age.
    #16
  17. s3 Hoggy
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    s3 Hoggy Whats going on???

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    :applaus:
    Fair play to you mate, why so much?
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  18. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    i have a years no claim and 18, was put off the s3 as insurance for it would have been 2.5 k..starting to wish i got the s3!! but i just coudnt afford its running costs though i dont think anyway.
    #18
  19. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    God knows, thats with 2years ncb aswel.
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  20. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    !!
    #20
  21. dancarpy
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    dancarpy S3 DCY

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    Iv just bought my S3 as well
    Its a 210 AMK 2001 facelift
    Iv gotta wait till im 21 in 10 days though to insure it ! :(
    Iv been quoted £1300 with 2 yrs no claims
    Which is not bad i suppose when iv just read all your posts.haha
    #21
  22. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    counting down the days.
    #22
  23. dancarpy
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    dancarpy S3 DCY

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    indeed!
    at the moment .it gets a lap round my estate !
    cant wait !
    #23
  24. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    is it just me getting raped by the insurance companys then.
    #24
  25. ianysm
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    ianysm Active Member

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    Yep seems that way!

    mine would have been £500 but its £750 with girlfriend added as she is under 25
    #25
  26. dancarpy
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    dancarpy S3 DCY

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    Might be due to your postcode ?
    #26
  27. s3 Hoggy
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    s3 Hoggy Whats going on???

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    Seems Its just you Dani!
    I've just turned 23 with 2 years ncb and I'm paying around £1200 fully comp. My postcode is the same as blackbird leys- not sure if you've heard of it but was once car crime capital of England! I'm trying to find somone 2 insure me if I were to remap my car but not sure who to ask?
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
    #27
  28. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    Third party on an S3.....little worrying.
    #28
  29. IIIadidasboy
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    IIIadidasboy Member

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    :sign_omg: Do you pay that monthly, or in one go?

    Think you need to have a look on confused.com - that would break my heart paying that amount. Maybe you'd be better off buying a second car and insuring the S3 with limited mileage per year? If it is postcode related, it might pay to hire a garage or something?

    Think your company are taking the pee a bit though

    I wont say what I pay fully comp - it'll just F you off!! (but then I am 37)
    #29
  30. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    Guys that is with over a month of looking and endless quotes and £2700 was the cheapest quote, having it garaged made no difference at all.
    I pay £227 a month.
    #30
  31. cabby86
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    cabby86 Member

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    I have not long turned 22 and have just renewed with 2yrs no claims (I did have a small no-fault claim about 3 years ago), and it was below £700 but I cant remember the exact figure!!!! I had some quotes at around £650, but they did not include legal cover, hirer car and a few other bits, was quite pleased compared to what some of my friends pay!!! It does help to have a rural postcode.

    Chris
    #31
  32. Dansmith
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    Dansmith Member

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    I'm 23 only a years no claims (but no accidents or points) and i pay £870 ish a year, check out churchill online! I do have a LARGE excess but i would rather have that than a insurance policy over a grand!
    #32
  33. jdas03
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    jdas03 Member

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    i just got mine insured a couple of weeks back and insurance companies do like to rape you at any oppotunity! i dont have ncb as i been a named driver so they charge me 2500 fully comp and i had to pay that all at once, next best quote was 4k!! and im 21! its terrible without ncb they do take the piss to be honest! im with admiral though and they are cheap if you specify high excess. i think i could get TPFT for 1500 with 1k excess. maybe worth going else where if you being charged 2700 tp!! personally i would go anything but FC with an s3, just too valuable to me!
    #33
  34. s3gav
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    s3gav Member

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    when i was 19yrs old i had a escort rst cost me over 3k to insure tpft a polo gti 3.2k fully comp then a pulsar gti-r dnt laugh 3.7k tp only im nw 25 and im paying £545 fully comp with priverlige best quote by £200 def worth a try if u havent alrdy try direct aswel smetimes cheaper than the compare sites
    #34
  35. omegadirective
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    omegadirective Member

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    I had Bell Direct for the insurance that is just about to run out. I have a quote with Elephant for £1200 this year which I thinks fair enough considering I dinged it badly in a moment of lax concentration. :( £350 excess, doesn't change by much after that.
    #35
  36. jamieface
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    jamieface the only S3 in the villiage

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    Woah You guys must be mad !! :salute: fair play though for getting on with it. I'm 28 and with my missus on the policy too i pay £550 fully comp with admiral with 3 yrs NCB. I remember my first 'Hot Hatch' costing me £600 quid TPF+T when i was 17 and everyone thought i was mental to pay that !!! Looking back though i must of been, It was an Ax GT :racer:
    #36
  37. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    wish my mates thought i was mental for paying 600 quid!
    #37
  38. s3 Hoggy
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    s3 Hoggy Whats going on???

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    Your brave I wont let my missus anywhere near mine!:w00t:
    #38
  39. dan-quattro
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    dan-quattro Member

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    I'm 26 with 5 yrs ncb and I'm paying £470 on an AMK S3, try Direct Line; think my excess is £250 :)
    #39

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