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2005 Nogaro S4 4.2 Newbi Owner (England)

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by JimGreen, May 19, 2014.

  1. Greeny233
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    Greeny233 Active Member

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    [Jul 28, 2014]
    Wow! I don't think Audi could have made this anymore complicated if they had tried. I wonder what the reason is for putting the timing chains on the back of the engine?
    #41
  2. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Jul 28, 2014]
    Space Apparently - - According to Audi, fitting their 4.2ltr V8 into the A4 Chassis wouldn't work due to the length of the V8 and in an attempt to build a replacement for the B5 RS4 (V6) they decided to redesigned their V8 4.2ltr engine by fitting the timing gear at the back of the engine, claiming that by doing this they shortened the overall length of the engine by a few inches.

    Production of the B5 RS4 (V6 Twin Turbo) having now finished, Audi chose to use their V8 as a replacement power plant, this would have course been the B6 RS4, but by the time they had made the necessary modifications to the engine block and got them into production, the B7 version of the A4 was already on the design table and about to start rolling off the production line, as a result there was no B6 version of the RS4, only the S4.

    This led to the B7 S4 / RS4 which is in reality a B6 Chassis with new panels (Wings, bonnet etc) being introduced with the same engine (Block) and modified induction system etc on the B7 RS4, again with the timing gear at the back, as opposed to the RS6 which is basically the same engine, but with the timing gear at the front.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2014
    #42
    Greeny233 likes this.
  3. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 29, 2014]
    s4 engine is something like 60mm shorter from front to back than an rs6 or a8 engine
    #43
  4. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 29, 2014]
    That engine has an impressive amount of chain keeping it all together!

    Lucky one on the chain guide issue too!
    #44
  5. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Jul 29, 2014]
    Chains...... LOL, and the C5 RS6 owners complain about having to change the timing belt once every 40k.......... Oh I wish.

    Guide, yep luck was on my side on that one.
    #45
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  6. p1tse
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    p1tse Member

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    [Aug 1, 2014]
    amazing thread

    keep up the good work
    #46
  7. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    Well......... As the days tick past I keep doing all those little bits that while the engine's out you should take advantage of.

    So, if anyone want's two pre cats from a 2005 B6 S4........... here they are, you just need to come and collect them :

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And I'll keep the Piggy Pipes with both Pre-Cats removed.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So, the story so far...... "Full" timing chain component replacement, including every chain, every guide, every tensioner and both the mechanical cam adjusters...... everything. Milltek Cat Back Exhaust System (Non Resonated), Piggy Pipes (Pre-Cats removed from Down Pipes), a lot of gaskets replaced while the engine was out. New Flywheel, Clutch & Pressure Plate, H&R Springs Fitted, BBS CH 19 x 8.5 Wheels Fitted. Replaced Coils, Plugs, Air Filter and Full Oil (Castrol 5-40) and Filter Change. I've also fitted some 02 Sensor Spacers to try and eliminate the CEL light being activated (I'll see if that works or not). But once were up and running then I need a JHM Remap, but obviously being in England this will have to be done by a download.

    I'm way off my target date of getting everything done in a month, but I'm hopeful she'll be back on the road by the end of this coming week.

    Once I'm happy with how she runs, then we move to the next step.
    #47
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  8. Greeny233
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    Greeny233 Active Member

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    Once again Jim great work. If i ever manage to get around to trading my A4 for an S4 i'm hoping to do a similar job.
    #48
  9. BrennanTDi
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    BrennanTDi Events Moderator Regional Rep

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    Love the B6 S4 and the BBS wheels look fantastic. Looks like you're getting stuck in with work on it too :)
    #49
  10. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    It's amazing how easy they are to work on.......... Once you've got the engine out.

    Engine bay is now immaculate, all steam cleaned and a quick buff.

    Engine you could eat your dinner off and just waiting to pick up my cam covers that I had bead blasted and powder coated RS4 Red.

    Ok..... so it's taken me a little longer than the month I planned, but worth taking that extra couple of weeks.

    Thanks for browsing, catch you all soon.
    #50
  11. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    very very nice job
    now put the accumulator on it
    #51
  12. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    After all this work, an accumulator is definitely being fitted, I'm just trying to decide which one............Any Recommendations ????
    #52
  13. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    Me too, something about the B6 Shape that I love. I've never been a fan of up to date cars and the B6 fit's my idea of a great sleeper car. I could probably have bought an early RS4 B7 for what this is costing me, but given the choice I would have made the same decision.

    Spent months looking for a perfect B6 S4 for this project and this makes it worthwhile.
    #53
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  14. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    both the moroso and the accusump ones work really really well
    you just have to work out where your going to put it placement wise and where you are going to put the return feed from the accumulator back in the engine to build oil pressure
    #54
  15. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 2, 2014]
    if the 02 spacers dont work
    a friend of mine has modified the ecu program and parameters so as it takes no notice of the pre cat readings
    #55
    JimGreen likes this.
  16. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 3, 2014]
    Many Thanks, I'll keep in touch.

    Regards Jim
    #56
  17. g00se
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    g00se Active Member

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    [Aug 6, 2014]
    #57
  18. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 6, 2014]
    Hi Goose

    Yes, snub mount has been replaced, I went for the ARP one which is basically the same as the Apikol, just easier to get hold of and it was delivered in a day.

    Engine is now back in, still got to button up the drive shafts and electrics.

    Really hoping to have it all done by the end of this weekend, but if not then it will only be a day or two later. Looking forward to see how it sits once everything is back together and the suspension has all been re aligned. Very pleased with the way the engine went back together, double and treble checked everything, torque settings, timing, replaced a load of gaskets that would be hard to replace once the engine was back in. Both crankshaft end seals, flywheel, clutch, pressure plate...... the list goes on. But hopefully this will give me a top notch and reliable S4 once it's all done.

    Looking forward to getting a JHMotorsports tune downloaded onto the ECU once I replenish my bank account....LOL.
    #58
  19. Mike_B
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    Mike_B Member

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    [Aug 6, 2014]
    Makes you wonder how Rover ever managed to keep the big V8 they use so simple in comparison. We changed the cam on a Range Rover in the street, outside the house.
    #59
  20. biyitch
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    biyitch Chocolate? It's doo-doo, baby!

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    [Aug 6, 2014]
    I guess the main reason would be the extra space in the engine bay.
    #60
  21. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 6, 2014]
    damn site easier to work on rover v8 engine because of the space
    downside is you will be working on it a damn site more because its a rover v8 engine !!
    they are notorious for oil and coolant leaks

    that would be why buick threw the engine away in 1963
    rover convinced gm to sell them the tooling and the rest is literally history
    #61
  22. Mike_B
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    Mike_B Member

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    [Aug 6, 2014]
    But given this engine was also used in the old Rover saloons, which weren't that big, and the likes of an MGB, and it's a compact engine anyway, is that a factor? I still find it amazing that such a simple engine is essentially still used in Range Rovers, compared to the extraordinary complexity of the Audi offering.
    #62
  23. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 6, 2014]
    it was used in the mgb gt and the rover sd1 this was the last time it was used in a rover car
    from then on it was only fitted in the land rover
    the modern land rover uses a jaquar based v8 engine called the ajv8 and has done for some time
    #63
  24. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 7, 2014]
    Don't forget what TVR Power did with them as well, they really made the engine go.
    #64
  25. sumo
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    sumo Member

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    [Aug 7, 2014]
    The Germans love to over engineer the **** out of things.
    #65
  26. monodude
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    monodude New Member

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    [Aug 7, 2014]
    :icon_thumright: Yeah that is so true, its like there are designed never to go wrong or be worked on haha
    #66
  27. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 7, 2014]
    We Wish......
    #67
  28. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 13, 2014]
    Not a lot to say about the pictures below, this is with the "Full Plus Kit" fitted (All timing components replaced).

    Just getting ready to put it back into the car.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    Well, I hope that makes up for not posting for a few days, just looking forward to getting it back into the car, hoping for a bit of a performance increase as now the timing will be spot on, as the variable cam timing adjusters were both worn and not timing the inlet cam accurately, the Milltek (Non Resonated Exhaust System) will give a little extra, along with the piggy pipes (Pre Cats Removed on the down pipes). Once it's up an running again it will be treated to a JHM remap, downloaded into the ECU.

    JHM Tuning for B6-B7 S4 w 4.2L V8 (40v) - JH Motorsports Inc. - -- JHM. Shifting you to the next

    Yep it's taken longer than the month I intended, but cleanliness is next to godliness...... LOL, and every inch of the motor and transmission has been cleaned to perfection and I've treated to cam covers to something special to brighten them up....... Pics to follow once she's all back together.
    It's been a huge job and VERY expensive, but to me it's worth it. I've replaced every timing component, plus all of the chains, plus the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate and a load of gaskets were replaced to play it safe.

    Once I get a spare moment, when the car is back up an running, I'll post some pics of the old components so give an idea of where the wear occurs and which items appear to fail first and show the failures....... this is on an engine that has a full Audi service history from new, was owned by two previous owners, the first of which was 68yrs old, so I doubt he thrashed it. The second owner who I purchased it from had looked after it like it was one of his children......... so it just goes to show that even the pampered cars can still suffer with the timing issues.

    But at the end of the day, I'm hoping this will be one of the best B6 S4's in the UK.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
    #68
  29. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 14, 2014]
    Well done mate , lots of work gone into it...........you changing that belt above the snub mount (last pic) for good measure as it looks tired :)

    What is the "Full plus kit"?
    #69
  30. biyitch
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    biyitch Chocolate? It's doo-doo, baby!

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    [Aug 14, 2014]
    Woof! It's good to see one of our engines getting the 'gold standard care package'. I know it's expensive but I've lost more than the cost of a timing system refresh in depreciation when selling cars in the past so it's worth it when the plan is to keep the car for the long-term. It'll also add value when you do sell it.

    If you haven't already bought the JHM tune cable, there's someone on Audizine who will lend it to you for free. PM for details.
    #70
  31. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 14, 2014]
    #71
  32. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 14, 2014]
    Yep, with this done, it definitely increases the value of the car should I decide to sell it, but that's not even an option I'm considering. After many years sticking with BMW's, I'm really enjoying the Audi's V8.

    Thanks for the info about the JHM Tune Cable, I'll stick a post up on Audizine to see if I can find out who has one. Really Appreciated.
    #72
  33. monodude
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    monodude New Member

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    [Aug 14, 2014]
    Hey Jim,

    Looks like you are getting there and good to replace as much as you can while the engine is out, I would recommend doing the belt tensioner/ idle wheel when you do the belt. also if the coolant temp sensor (Green sensor on the back of the motor) hasn't been changed to do that as well as its a real pain to get at when its in the car. hehe and if you can stretch to it a new water pump assembly.

    It should be a healthy motor when its done... Just take it easy when its all back together let stuff bed in etc... but you probably already know that.

    Cheers

    Al
    #73
  34. Mike_B
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    Mike_B Member

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    [Aug 14, 2014]
    Fantastic! Respect!! But, at 9 years old and only 90k miles that's a frightening amount of engine work to keep her running as she should. I realise it's a performance car, but even so.
    #74
  35. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 14, 2014]

    Mike, your comments are of course absolutely true.

    For a (relatively speaking) modern engine design from a manufacturer with the reputation and experience of Audi, you would certainly expect a 4.2ltr V8 to do double this mileage before any work of this level was required.

    You only have to look at the America LS Series Engines from the Corvette's, that regularly do 200,000 miles with only minor servicing, the BMW V8's that again regularly do huge mileages with only regular servicing...... I could go on and on naming manufacturers with big V8's that are way less experienced than Audi, but way more reliable. My company Vauxhall Astra 1.7ltr has well over 100k on the clock and it's had nothing more than annual servicing, it even still has the original clutch and it runs faultlessly.

    The engine designer that modified the Audi V8, placing the timing gears at the back of the engine, meaning the engine had to be removed from the car to change something as simple as a timing tensioner should have been shot, especially when the timing components were of poor quality and fail prior to 100k miles in many cases.

    But, there's not a lot we can do about it now. We just have to accept that if we buy a car fitted with one of these V8's ..... It could be a very expensive car to maintain.

    It's a well documented issue, so unless you haven't done your home work, you have to decide if you want to take the chance or not.

    The good thing is that if your mechanically minded with some decent tools and don't mind getting your hands dirty, you can pick up these cars for a bargain price if they have an engine with these issues. Many people just call it a day when they get the timing gear rattle and sell the car for whatever they can get for it. Then you buy a full timing chain kit, fit it yourself and you'll have a good reliable high performance car for another 90k miles.

    Many of the components have now been upgraded or materials have been changed, so improvements have been made to the components. Hopefully they should now be capable of higher mileages once the overhaul had been done.

    Maybe not such a bad choice after all, providing you know what you might be getting into.

    But Audi must never get it this wrong ever again.

    .
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
    #75
  36. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 15, 2014]
    The final days of the rebuild......
    I have the weekend off work, so hopefully I'll be back on the road on Monday.......... At last.

    Have to say a huge thanks to" Kal" at Moorland Motors (Gosport - England) who's experience of the Audi V8 has proved invaluable in the rebuild, a very knowledgeable guy who's attention to detail is second to non.

    [​IMG]
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    Sorry for the quality of the pictures (Good Old IPhone)........... It's been a long, hard and more expensive job than I intended, but believe it'll be worth it in the end. A lot of the extra time was taken in deep cleaning everything once she was dismantled, plus a few unexpected bits that would have been stupid not to replace while the engine and transmission was out.... Sensors, gaskets that were looking a bit tired, Clutch assembly & Flywheel replaced, Valve covers bead blasted and powder coated, a couple of hoses here and there ...... Plugs, Filters, Fresh Oil etc etc etc ... the list goes on.

    I used the exact list of components as in the "JHM Full Plus rebuild kit". The only reason I didn't purchase from JHM is that I'm in England and would have been hit hard by the good old VAT man .. having to pay +20% import tax. Having friends in the trade meant I could get it for the same price here in England as purchasing from JHM. Had I been anywhere else, I'd have just gone direct to JHM.


    .
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
    #76
  37. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 16, 2014]
    Whey Hey......... She's up and running and sounds so sweet Just putting a few miles on her then back on the lift, pull of the underside shields and check for any leaks.
    Pics to follow very shortly
    Bits Done :

    1. Total Timing Gear Overhaul (Using every item listed in JHM's "Full Plus Kit").

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    2. Cam Covers Bead Blasted and Powder Coated.

    [​IMG]

    3. All One way return valves Replaced (Two underneath the Valley Pan + Jet Replaced + One in each Cylinder Head).

    [​IMG]

    4. -25mm H&R Springs Fitted.

    [​IMG]

    5. BBS CH 19x8.5 Wheels & New Tyres.

    [​IMG]

    6. DeCat'd Down Pipes (Piggy Pipes).

    [​IMG]

    7. Milltek (Non Resonated) Exhaust System.

    [​IMG]

    8. New DM Flywheel, Pressure Plate and Clutch Plate.

    Didn't get pics of these, my tech fitted them before I got the chance.

    9. Numerous gaskets, Seals & Sensors Replaced.

    Couldn't be bothered to take pics of boring gaskets.

    10. ARP Snub Mount.

    [​IMG]

    11. Oils & Filters all replaced.

    Now I'm just trying to find someone local to me (Portsmouth - Hampshire - England) with a laptop running Windows 7 (Mines too modern running Windows 8) to download JHM's Tune.


    .
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
    #77
  38. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 23, 2014]
    Well, having got the car up and running, we ran into two fault codes coming up which related to the variable timing...... bearing in mind I replaced EVERY component I was a little pis-ed to see this. Especially taking into account the care that was taken when we did the job, paying attention to total cleanliness and checking all settings at least twice.

    My tech took the car for a run and stated it pulls well and sounds fine, but he did notice a slight hesitation from on - off - on throttle and the engine doesn't run as smoothly at idle as it used too. For the first 15 - 20 seconds after start up it runs perfectly smoothly, but then seems to run not as smooth as normal (Not really bad, but certainly not as smooth as it should be).

    So..... He used VAGCOM and checked for any codes and these two came up - The car was code free prior to the rebuild :

    16405 bank 2 camshaft a (intake) p0021-002 retard setpoint not reached (over advanced) mil

    on and the other

    16395 Bank 1 p0011-002 retard setpoint not reached over advanced mil on.

    Having diagnosed exactly what the codes meant and knowing that these codes suggested the cams were over advanced and not timed correctly, he had put the car back on the ramp, locked the crank using the Audi Crank Locking Pin at TDC and checked the physical position of the cams, using the Audi Camshaft Locking Bars and everything lined up perfectly. This suggests the crank and cams have been set correctly.

    He was unable to re check that the "Hall Sender Wheel" on the Camshaft Adjusters were set spot on as he was unable to get the Setting Tool between the back of the engine and the bulkhead without removing a huge amount of ancillary hoses/electrics etc etc etc, but when he built up the time gear he is certain that it was set correctly and was using the genuine Audi Tool.

    He's check the Oil Pressure which was well within specifications and a new pump had recently been fitted, Compression - Very Good on all eight cylinders, all over 200psi and now were at a bit of a loss as to what could be the reason for these two codes which relate to both of the Intake Cams being over advanced.

    Having referenced http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...5/P0011/000017 I see it refers to checking the following :

    Possible Causes

    1. Camshaft Adjustment Valve 1 (N205) faulty - WHAT PART IS THIS AND HOW IS IT CHECKED

    2. Fuel Pump Relay (J17) faulty - NO REASON TO BELIEVE THIS IS FAULTY AS THE CAR WAS RUNNING PERFECTLY PRIOR TO THE TIMING REBUILD

    3. Mechanical Timing not correct, including Chain and/or Belt timing - CHECKED, CRANK SET AT TDC USING CRANK LOCKING PIN AND CHECKED IT HAD LOCATE CORRECTLY. CAMS CHECKED AND LINED UP WITH AUDI CAM LOCKING PLATES, AGAIN ALL LINED UP PERFECTLY.

    Only item that we have not re checked to make sure it's one hundred percent perfect (But he is certain he set it correctly during build up and used the Audi Setting Tool) is the "Hall Sender Wheel."

    Is there anything which we could have overlooked..............

    HELP PLEASE.

    Thanks Jim
    #78
  39. JimGreen
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    JimGreen Active Member

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    [Aug 23, 2014]
    UPDATE UPDATE :
    Ok, so having stripped the back of the engine (With the engine in situ) again to access the timing components, we checked the following.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    1. checked the static timing of all the components. Crank (Top Dead Centre Using Audi Crank locating pin) - and made sure it had located in the correct spot on the crank - Spot On.

    2. Checked all chains were tensioned correctly and running correctly on the guides & tensioners, they were spot on.

    3. Checked all camshafts were correctly timed (Using Audi Camshaft locating plates), they were spot on.

    So at this point we were able to confirm that the engine had all been timed up correctly when it was re-assembled.

    4. We then removed both of the Mechanical Adjuster Units and checked that they had been assembled correctly at static timing "Locating Pins in Locked Position" and timed correctly..... they were, we then checked that they were activating correctly and not jammed and did the airline test to ensure the pins released when the oil pressure would be applied from the Electrical Cam Adjusters..... The mechanical adjusters worked perfectly and moved freely after the pin had been released by the air pressure (Which suggests the oil pressure would do the same) - All checked out spot on.

    5. We then decided to work backwards from the Mechanical Adjusters as everything up to this point was ok.

    6. We now moved back to the Electrical Cam Adjuster units and decided to check exactly how these worked. We compared the two new units against our two old units and dis-assembled one of the old units to see how they worked. The main part of the Electrical Cam Adjuster (Picture Below of one of my old units) is mechanically operated by an electrically operated actuator, the part to the right of the Electrical Cam Adjuster in the picture is the actuator (This is one of the actuators removed from one of the new units). A signal is sent to the from the ECU to the actuator when the variable timing is needed to be adjusted, when the electrical signal is received by the actuator, it activates a piston in the actuator which moves in two directions dependant on what polarity of signal is received, that allows the oil pressure to either flow, or not flow...... which then controls the movement of the mechanical adjusters.
    [​IMG]

    7. So...... We decided to test one of the old actuators to see exactly how the electrical charge moved the piston inside the actuator (Picture Below). As you can see from the picture below..... the actuator has holes along it's body, and inside the centre of the actuator is a long piston, which dependant on it's position either blocks these holes or opens them.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    When testing both of the old actuators having removed them from the Electric Cam Adjuster Units we applied 12v to the actuator, The piston moved in one direction (Allowing the holes to be open, and when swapping polarity, it moves in the opposite direction (Can't remember which polarity = open and which = closed, but basically the piston moves up or down within the actuator. Both of the old actuators did this perfectly.

    8. Now we removed both actuators from the new units and carried out the same test.........

    a. The first new actuator we tested, the piston moved in one direction fine, but when we reversed the polarity, it failed to return the piston back in the opposite direction and the piston remained in the position the initial electrical charge had sent it ! ! ! !

    b. We then tested the second new actuator, applying the same 12v electrical supply....... I was holding the actuator when the test was done...... The piston didn't move at all, but I could feel the actuator pulsing, but no movement on the piston. We swapped polarity, but again...... exactly the same.

    All of the items we used throughout the whole rebuild are genuine Audi parts and we are now having to return the parts under warranty..........

    We did consider putting the old actuators into the new Electric Cam Adjuster Units, but after spending so much money..... why should we.
    I believe that there is something wrong with the actuators of the new Electric Cam Adjusters, which would explain the fault codes and the ECU recognising that the timing was not retarding when required and throwing the fault codes (This would be because the actuators appear jammed and were not allowing the oil pressure to get to the Mechanical Adjusters to release the pins from the locked position...........

    Has anyone else had this problem ????

    Old on the left, working correctly. New On the right, not working correctly.

    Any advice or additional tests I should do HuhHuhHuh

    [​IMG]
    #79
  40. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 23, 2014]
    That's not good and surprised they were not tested......must be a bad batch if both new ones did it.
    #80

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